Four elderly ladies thrown off Northern train

[Old Yard Dog]

Yesterday I was on a Liverpool to Leeds train and had a 10 min connection for the Harrogate service (P11d to P1c). The TPE was 5 mins late but I just about made it. A group of 4 elderly ladies, who I didn’t know, found it harder. Three made it and one waited in the door for her struggling friend who then made it.

Rather than wait 30 secs, the conductor tried to cLose the door then threw the four of them off saying it may have looked cruel but it was a safety issue.

He was of course correct and in his rights and only obeying company orders.

But what has the railway come to when staff and passengers are forced to behave like this and be totally devoid of common sense and compassion? Punctuality targets trump passenger welfare.

(And yes I do understand that short delays can have knock on effects)

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yesterday I was on a Liverpool to Leeds train and had a 10 min connection for the Harrogate service (P11d to P1c). The TPE was 5 mins late but I just about made it. A group of 4 elderly ladies, who I didn’t know, found it harder. Three made it and one waited in the door for her struggling friend who then made it.

Rather than wait 30 secs, the conductor tried to cLose the door then threw the four of them off saying it may have looked cruel but it was a safety issue.

He was of course correct and in his rights and only obeying company orders.

But what has the railway come to when staff and passengers are forced to behave like this and be totally devoid of common sense and compassion? Punctuality targets trump passenger welfare.

(And yes I do understand that short delays can have knock on effects)

Sorry I'm struggling to understand this.
You say three made it and then the other one made it.
If they were on the train why would the conductor "throw them off"?

 

[renegademaster]

Sorry I'm struggling to understand this.
You say three made it and then the other one made it.
If they were on the train why would the conductor "throw them off"?

From my reading they where blocking the door from closing

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Two were in the train, one was blocking the door and one was struggling up the platform.

 

[Taunton]

But what has the railway come to when staff and passengers are forced to behave like this and be totally devoid of common sense and compassion? Punctuality targets trump passenger welfare.

Only this week I was on London to Cornwall. Delayed beyond Saltash by a signal fault, the announcement was made when we got going again, 15 minutes down, that the short connection at Liskeard for Looe would not be held "because that would delay the branch service for the rest of the day". This caused an audible gasp and moan up and down the carriage.

This is indeed what has become of punctuality targets. You can imagine the guard paraphrasing what control had said. They are measured, in percentages, by the train, so a shuttle service back and forth like the Looe branch is worth a lot for bringing the figures up. Roger Ford's "Golden Whistles" in Modern Railways is a willing accomplice to this, celebrating the Looe branch train being whistled off to time while the passengers for it are still running in over the viaduct towards Liskeard ...

Regarding "safety issue", that's a load of nonsense. It's only a safety issue with someone in the door if the guard presses their close button. Answer, don't press the close button.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Two were in the train, one was blocking the door and one was struggling up the platform.

So he didn't throw four of them off?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Only this week I was on London to Cornwall. Delayed beyond Saltash by a signal fault, the announcement was made when we got going again, 15 minutes down, that the short connection at Liskeard for Looe would not be held "because that would delay the branch service for the rest of the day". This caused an audible gasp and moan up and down the carriage.

This is indeed what has become of punctuality targets. You can imagine the guard paraphrasing what control had said. They are measured, in percentages, by the train, so a shuttle service back and forth like the Looe branch is worth a lot for bringing the figures up. Roger Ford's "Golden Whistles" in Modern Railways is a willing accomplice to this, celebrating the Looe branch train being whistled off to time while the passengers for it are still running in over the viaduct towards Liskeard ...

The only devil's advocate comment I'd make is, if the branch is late for rest of the day what about all the people missing connections to London or elsewhere coming from Looe.

I dont agree with it at all, and the branch should have more resilience to allow for this would be my view.

 

[800001]

Yesterday I was on a Liverpool to Leeds train and had a 10 min connection for the Harrogate service (P11d to P1c). The TPE was 5 mins late but I just about made it. A group of 4 elderly ladies, who I didn’t know, found it harder. Three made it and one waited in the door for her struggling friend who then made it.

Rather than wait 30 secs, the conductor tried to cLose the door then threw the four of them off saying it may have looked cruel but it was a safety issue.

He was of course correct and in his rights and only obeying company orders.

But what has the railway come to when staff and passengers are forced to behave like this and be totally devoid of common sense and compassion? Punctuality targets trump passenger welfare.

(And yes I do understand that short delays can have knock on effects)

Probably took longer to get them off the train than it would of waiting for the last one to arrive

 

[Parallel]

This is indeed what has become of punctuality targets. You can imagine the guard paraphrasing what control had said. They are measured, in percentages, by the train, so a shuttle service back and forth like the Looe branch is worth a lot for bringing the figures up. Roger Ford's "Golden Whistles" in Modern Railways is a willing accomplice to this, celebrating the Looe branch train being whistled off to time while the passengers for it are still running in over the viaduct towards Liskeard ...

The train has a short turnaround time at Looe. Delaying the train likely would’ve seen it return late on its return working back to Liskeard. Frustrating for passengers who wanted the connection but saves disrupting more passengers later on.

 

[BeijingDave]

So he didn't throw four of them off?

I understood it well enough: the four weren't able to continue to board.

 

[InkyScrolls]

So, if I'm reading your comment correctly, all four eventually made it to the train but the guard 'threw' them off anyway?

 

[jfollows]

It’s the fundamental problem with our railways, they’re not run with the passenger in mind but to targets which try to reflect the best aggregate performance to the largest group of passengers.
The answer to the individual passenger is “Delay Repay”.
It’s clearly important that delaying a train for one person with huge knock-on effects to many others is probably unwise, but sometimes common sense also appears to go out of the window. The problem is that petty things which impact people mean they will stop using trains in future. Doing things which negatively impact me in my travels are acceptable if I understand why, but sometimes this isn’t the case.
Ultimately there’s no simple solution.

 

[LowLevel]

As I understand it, the guard wanted the train to leave, the person obstructed the doors from closing to force the train to wait for their friend and so was told to leave the train and refused travel.

On the one hand it seems harsh, on the other hand if you were to replace the elderly ladies with an 18 year old blocking the doors so their mate who isn't as quick could catch it the responses to the scenario may differ!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Only this week I was on London to Cornwall. Delayed beyond Saltash by a signal fault, the announcement was made when we got going again, 15 minutes down, that the short connection at Liskeard for Looe would not be held "because that would delay the branch service for the rest of the day". This caused an audible gasp and moan up and down the carriage.

This is indeed what has become of punctuality targets. You can imagine the guard paraphrasing what control had said. They are measured, in percentages, by the train, so a shuttle service back and forth like the Looe branch is worth a lot for bringing the figures up. Roger Ford's "Golden Whistles" in Modern Railways is a willing accomplice to this, celebrating the Looe branch train being whistled off to time while the passengers for it are still running in over the viaduct towards Liskeard ...

The only devil's advocate comment I'd make is, if the branch is late for rest of the day what about all the people missing connections to London or elsewhere coming from Looe.

I dont agree with it at all, and the branch should have more resilience to allow for this would be my view.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It’s a wider symptom of “our railway would be great if it wasn’t for the passengers”. The same often happens at Kennington on the Northern Line. A trainload of people get off the Bank train, make their way over to the Charing Cross platform right before the train departs full of fresh air as its passenger watch it speed past on the platform.

 

[Haywain]

A trainload of people get off the Bank train, make their way over to the Charing Cross platform right before the train departs full of fresh air as its passenger watch it speed past on the platform

And then have to wait all of two minutes for the next train.

 

[LowLevel]

It’s a wider symptom of “our railway would be great if it wasn’t for the passengers”. The same often happens at Kennington on the Northern Line. A trainload of people get off the Bank train, make their way over to the Charing Cross platform right before the train departs full of fresh air as its passenger watch it speed past on the platform.

And the next train then arrives at most a couple of minutes later?

 

[Jan Mayen]

Perhaps we shoukd ask the signaller to hold the train in the tunnel, until the connecting train has cleared the platform? That way, the passengers don't see the fresh air going by.

 

[jfollows]

It’s a wider symptom of “our railway would be great if it wasn’t for the passengers”. The same often happens at Kennington on the Northern Line. A trainload of people get off the Bank train, make their way over to the Charing Cross platform right before the train departs full of fresh air as its passenger watch it speed past on the platform.

Yes, but that’s just the point.
If the Charing Cross train were an hourly service, then holding it for connections makes sense. But it isn’t, and trains are timed to the quarter minute, so delaying it may cause problems and delays elsewhere. Yes, it’s annoying, but compared to public transport in the rest of the country it’s a minor irritation.

And there are explicit instructions to hold connections for the last trains of the day.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

This is indeed what has become of punctuality targets. You can imagine the guard paraphrasing what control had said. They are measured, in percentages, by the train, so a shuttle service back and forth like the Looe branch is worth a lot for bringing the figures up.

Should they not factor in the delay repay claims? If an hourly Branch Line service fails to wait a minute or two for a connection, doesn't that trigger delay repay claims for an hour?

 

[Zomboid]

The only devil's advocate comment I'd make is, if the branch is late for rest of the day what about all the people missing connections to London or elsewhere coming from Looe.

I dont agree with it at all, and the branch should have more resilience to allow for this would be my view.

If there's not much resilience, how would you increase it? Reduce frequency? Run an extra unit and provide passing places? Miss stations?

Once you start making exceptions to punctual operation for this or that circumstance, everything becomes an exception, nothing runs to time and nobody can rely on the service.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And then have to wait all of two minutes for the next train.

For the Leeds to Harrogate connection as reported by the OP, more likely a 30 minute wait for the next train.

 

[Haywain]

Should they not factor in the delay repay claims? If an hourly Branch Line service fails to wait a minute or two for a connection, doesn't that trigger delay repay claims for an hour?

It might do, for a relatively small number of people. But delaying later services by holding one could result in significantly more delay repay claims.

 

[LowLevel]

The other thing I'd say is two fold - firstly reinforcing the idea to someone that if they block the doors the train will wait and they will catch it is a silly one - the records are littered with people coming a cropper doing that.

Secondly at a station like Leeds you'll be sat with the signal off locking up the route. Waiting 30 seconds for someone never happens. You wait, they have to board. Someone else appears behind them. Then someone comes out of the lift. Before you know it you've stopped train movements for 5 minutes at a busy and complex location

 

[Haywain]

For the Leeds to Harrogate connection reported by the OP, more likely a 30 minute wait for the next train.

I didn't comment on that.

 

[ricoblade]

Very rarely (uniquely?) in my experience, the opposite occurred at Goole yesterday on an afternoon Scarborough to Sheffield service.

We set off then almost immediately stopped and after a few seconds a lady appeared on the platform and started talking to the driver. After a few more seconds, the doors re-opened and she got on.

I've no idea what made the driver stop like that as I don't think I've ever seen passengers let on after a train has set off, let alone after the doors have closed.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Comrades, please. Yes I know we Londoners are a privileged folk, but it is still irritating nonetheless when it seems like the opposite of what should when you have cross platform interchange like at Kennington. Just trying to show some solidarity with the OP!

 

[Haywain]

it is still irritating nonetheless when it seems like the opposite of what should when you have cross platform interchange like at Kennington.

What's the advertised connection time? Because if there isn't one, there is no "what should happen".

 

[PLY2AYS]

Yesterday I was on a Liverpool to Leeds train and had a 10 min connection for the Harrogate service (P11d to P1c). The TPE was 5 mins late but I just about made it. A group of 4 elderly ladies, who I didn’t know, found it harder. Three made it and one waited in the door for her struggling friend who then made it.

Rather than wait 30 secs, the conductor tried to cLose the door then threw the four of them off saying it may have looked cruel but it was a safety issue.

He was of course correct and in his rights and only obeying company orders.

But what has the railway come to when staff and passengers are forced to behave like this and be totally devoid of common sense and compassion? Punctuality targets trump passenger welfare.

(And yes I do understand that short delays can have knock on effects)

Sounds to me like these passengers were late.
Trains run to a timetable, not for individuals to hold the door for their friends who also couldn’t keep to time.

Drivers who work DOO find it is the most frustrating thing when people hold doors… saw someone drop someone at the station late the other week, jump from their driver’s side of the car, run and stand in the door whilst their passenger bought a ticket at the machine.

I understand compassion, but there are several factors at play:
Passengers who deliberately delay trains for their own reasons often delay other trains and ultimately lots more people are late. Not necessarily just on their train either!
It creates a chain of paperwork for staff with delay attribution forms and reasons/questions around timekeeping
The worst however, is the privatisation model which fines train companies for trains being late. Apportioning blame to delayed services is a big money generator for TOCs, especially when it’s Network Rail/infrastructure or other TOCs which delay smooth running.
And of course targets of punctuality for operators overall.

I’m not saying that compassion for passengers shouldn’t be had, accommodations can be made prior, but timekeeping is just as much a responsibility for the passenger as it is for the company providing a service.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What's the advertised connection time? Because if there isn't one, there is no "what should happen".

Well I don’t know about you, but if you have a busy (the busiest in London) mass transit line, force hordes off people off one branch onto an other whilst an empty train is waiting on the platform, it should be the case such train scoops up said passengers leaving the platform clear for the next batch of passengers. That would be the most efficient system. “Advertised connection times”, need not apply.