Four elderly ladies thrown off Northern train

[LowLevel]

Well I don’t know about you, but if you have a busy (the busiest in London) mass transit line, force hordes off people off one branch onto an other whilst an empty train is waiting on the platform, it should be the case such train scoops up said passengers leaving the platform clear for the next batch of passengers. That would be the most efficient system. “Advertised connection times”, need not apply.

But the way the Northern line works nowadays most of the time the next train will literally be waiting behind it to roll in. Having not really used it much since ATO came in I did a few weeks ago and was seriously impressed at how the next train was rolling in more or less as soon as the one in front cleared the platform, far slicker than the old manually driven system.

 

[800001]

For the Leeds to Harrogate connection as reported by the OP, more likely a 30 minute wait for the next train.

Isn’t it every 15 minutes to Harrogate?
2 x York per hour
2 x Knaresborough per hour?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

But the way the Northern line works nowadays most of the time the next train will literally be waiting behind it to roll in. Having not really used it much since ATO came in I did a few weeks ago and was seriously impressed at how the next train was rolling in more or less as soon as the one in front cleared the platform, far slicker than the old manually driven system.

Yeah the Bank branch is definitely like that, pre-Covid it was mind blowing. Hasn’t seemed to quite recovered since. But I’ve always found the Charing Cross branch a bit iffy. You get awkward service gaps in it sometimes

 

[bluenoxid]

Isn’t it every 15 minutes to Harrogate?
2 x York per hour
2 x Knaresborough per hour?

No. The stopping service is every 30 minutes Leeds to York during the day. Until the recent upgrades it was 1 York and 1 Knaresborough per hour

There are additional LNER trains and peak hour trains as well, which start/stop short mostly at Harrogate but also Knaresborough and Horsforth.

The challenge for this line is that there are single track sections between Knaresborough and York, one of which is timetabled to take 11 minutes to clear (I might be wrong on this). The risk of the delay caused is a full or part cancellation (at Harrogate) of this or a subsequent service

The local MP has recently suggested that the line should be double tracked to improve resilience following a cabride. Whilst sympathetic, I’d like to see what can be done to tweak things (eg faster turnouts) but I appreciate that the recent upgrades (in the late 2010s/early 2020s) will probably have squeezed those possibilities if they were achievable). I would also like to look at improving things like start and finish times (eg first train into Leeds for stations after Harrogate is 0740 and last train returning from Leeds is 2129)

 

[tspaul26]

Two were in the train, one was blocking the door and one was struggling up the platform.

So, to summarise, we’ve got at least one criminal offence already.

Did the other two on the train or the one on the platform ask number four to hold the door?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The passengers were only late as TPE were 5 minutes mins late arriving in Leeds. I suspect the ladies had printed itineraries with little idea when the next Harrogate train was due. And I’m not sure how delay repay might work for missed TPE/Northern connections.

 

[Haywain]

And I’m not sure how delay repay might work for missed TPE/Northern connections.

If TPE were late and the connection was missed, then TPE are on the hook for Delay Repay. It's really very simple.

 

[norbitonflyer]

But TPE will say there was time to catch the connection, as clearly there was for 75% of the party

 

[Haywain]

as clearly there was for 75% of the party

Not if they were refused boarding.

 

[Trainguy34]

And if they were below the minimum connection time (10 Minutes)

 

[WirralLine]

Speaking from experience, I often find if you hold a train for an extra 30 seconds to let a straggler board, you can end up in a situation where more people then start running and you seem to be stuck there.

I remember working a train from Crewe one evening. At XX:XX:30 it was time to close up and go, dispatcher decided to wait to allow 1 elderly lady who was slowly making her way to us with a case. Not a problem. While he's helping her board at exactly the time wheels should be rolling, an Avanti service from the south which has just rocked up on platform 6 next to us unlocks its doors and suddenly about 40 people all running to catch my train (platform 9) as it's still there so theres a chance to avoid waiting an hour for the next one. Ended up 5 minutes late because we waited 30 seconds for 1 passenger.

My train was only going to Chester, so no issues with affecting other services, however it means anybody with a booked connection at Chester may miss it if it's around 5 mins after our scheduled arrival. (Minimum connection time is 5 minutes at Chester).

 

[Sheridan]

Yes that’s happened to me coming back from Crewe to north wales, the xx51 to Llandudno is a valid connection off the Crewe but Avanti dispatchers seem to make their own decisions about when to hold (based on my experience from the outside looking in - it may have been authorised by TfW it looks like a spur of the moment thing to me) and I’ve missed the Llandudno train as a result.
Keeping things on topic, if the passengers were late to the platform as their connecting service was late then it does seem harsh, even if correct.

 

[bramling]

Well I don’t know about you, but if you have a busy (the busiest in London) mass transit line, force hordes off people off one branch onto an other whilst an empty train is waiting on the platform, it should be the case such train scoops up said passengers leaving the platform clear for the next batch of passengers. That would be the most efficient system. “Advertised connection times”, need not apply.

It can’t work like that. If you wait, what happens in practice is you’ll get loads of people all trying to board few a few doors, and the dwell time will go through the roof. Then it will screw up the headways, and ultimately inconvenience more people than the comparatively few who haven’t had to wait a whole 3 mins.

But the way the Northern line works nowadays most of the time the next train will literally be waiting behind it to roll in. Having not really used it much since ATO came in I did a few weeks ago and was seriously impressed at how the next train was rolling in more or less as soon as the one in front cleared the platform, far slicker than the old manually driven system.

Hmm. You didn’t see it in certain places, then! The problem with it is there’s places where the platform re-occupation is is appealing, which unfortunately acts as a constraint for the entire line. The old signalling could deliver some impressive re-occupation times as well, but did require the driver to play ball.

 

[fandroid]

Only this week I was on London to Cornwall. Delayed beyond Saltash by a signal fault, the announcement was made when we got going again, 15 minutes down, that the short connection at Liskeard for Looe would not be held "because that would delay the branch service for the rest of the day". This caused an audible gasp and moan up and down the carriage.

I guess the issue at Liskeard is that such a delay on the branch service is likely to wreck the connections with main line services for those travelling the other way when the branch train returns from Looe

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And if they were below the minimum connection time (10 Minutes)

Not sure which connection at Leeds it actually was (did the OP say?) but it might just have been the minimum ten minutes.

 

[Horizon22]

Only this week I was on London to Cornwall. Delayed beyond Saltash by a signal fault, the announcement was made when we got going again, 15 minutes down, that the short connection at Liskeard for Looe would not be held "because that would delay the branch service for the rest of the day". This caused an audible gasp and moan up and down the carriage.

This is indeed what has become of punctuality targets. You can imagine the guard paraphrasing what control had said. They are measured, in percentages, by the train, so a shuttle service back and forth like the Looe branch is worth a lot for bringing the figures up. Roger Ford's "Golden Whistles" in Modern Railways is a willing accomplice to this, celebrating the Looe branch train being whistled off to time while the passengers for it are still running in over the viaduct towards Liskeard ...

Regarding "safety issue", that's a load of nonsense. It's only a safety issue with someone in the door if the guard presses their close button. Answer, don't press the close button.

GWR are actually very good at connectional policies on Devon and Cornwall branches. There is a limit though to how late a train can be at a some point a line has to be drawn unfortunately.

And as mentioned, delaying connections for return journeys can mean even more missed connections for longer.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If there's not much resilience, how would you increase it? Reduce frequency? Run an extra unit and provide passing places? Miss stations?

Once you start making exceptions to punctual operation for this or that circumstance, everything becomes an exception, nothing runs to time and nobody can rely on the service.

I don't know to my mind but a 15 minute delay not being recoverable all day feels lack of resilience. Appreciate it won't attract investment to solve either. It's not really something I think can or should be solved in the current climate.

I agree with your post effectively!

 

[Zomboid]

The thinking is justifiably that it's better to severely inconvenience a small number of people rather than make everyone late for the rest of the day.

I had that on a flight from Gatwick to Glasgow one time, the plane that was due to take us had a fault and they couldn't fix it that day. They could have shunted us all onto the next flight, but that would have delayed all of the people on that flight as well as everyone on mine. So the remaining 3 or 4 flights of the day left with their passengers and everyone from my flight were given a hotel and travelled the next day. Which resulted in me missing the event that I was travelling for, but I can completely understand why the airline did that - having one plane load of disgruntled passengers is better overall service than 4.

 

[bahnause]

The train has a short turnaround time at Looe. Delaying the train likely would’ve seen it return late on its return working back to Liskeard. Frustrating for passengers who wanted the connection but saves disrupting more passengers later on.

It is important to minimize the impact of delayed trains on others. What is not acceptable are “visual connections”, i.e. letting the trains depart right in front of the connecting passengers without them.

 

[geoffk]

I've no idea what made the driver stop like that as I don't think I've ever seen passengers let on after a train has set off, let alone after the doors have closed.

I've seen it happen in Ireland, twice as far as I remember, on local trains worked by DOO where such a procedure would be less complicated.

 

[Seehof]

I remember as a driver - being on the last Harrogate branch train from platform 11 at York and seeing a late London arrival coming in platform 5. I was just setting off when the first passengers were coming down the stairs who then missed it and had to have taxis arranged.
Whatever the reasons behind the scenes it makes the railway inhuman, inefficient and unreliable.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I remember as a driver - being on the last Harrogate branch train from platform 11 at York and seeing a late London arrival coming in platform 5. I was just setting off when the first passengers were coming down the stairs who then missed it and had to have taxis arranged.
Whatever the reasons behind the scenes it makes the railway inhuman, inefficient and unreliable.

Sounds a bit odd for the ‘last’ train being such a priority to depart dead on time.

I suppose that a member of the crew might be right on the limit for hours or an engineering possession about to be taken.

 

[PLY2AYS]

It is important to minimize the impact of delayed trains on others. What is not acceptable are “visual connections”, i.e. letting the trains depart right in front of the connecting passengers without them.

In theory, every train is a connecting train depending on late running. So this comment makes no sense… I suggest shutting your eyes next time you arrive at a terminus or busy interchange station.

The railway runs to time. Sometimes it runs late, sometimes passengers run late, but hopefully and more importantly, it strives to run on time.

We need to remove people from roads and for more people to use the railway and find it an appealing alternative.
To make it less reliable doesn’t achieve this aim and ultimately makes the service less appealing to all.

 

[mrcheek]

I don't know to my mind but a 15 minute delay not being recoverable all day feels lack of resilience. Appreciate it won't attract investment to solve either. It's not really something I think can or should be solved in the current climate.

I agree with your post effectively!

Liskeard to Looe takes approx 24-28 minutes. So the service runs hourly all day. So there is literally no recovery time

 

[yorkie]

I remember as a driver - being on the last Harrogate branch train from platform 11 at York and seeing a late London arrival coming in platform 5. I was just setting off when the first passengers were coming down the stairs who then missed it and had to have taxis arranged.
Whatever the reasons behind the scenes it makes the railway inhuman, inefficient and unreliable.

Agreed; I think the industry doesn't mind being seen in this light, on the basis that at busy times, the trains are full of people who have no realistic alternative.

It's all a very different experience where I am right now (Czechia) or other places live been to recently (e.g. Switzerland), where it's a genuine public service, and you can actually board right up to the advertised departure time (discussed in another thread) as well as find most connections held, where it is within reason.

People seem to have far more confidence in making journeys that involve multiple connections in such countries, than in GB, where some people won't make a journey if it's not a direct train.

GWR are actually very good at connectional policies on Devon and Cornwall branches. There is a limit though to how late a train can be at a some point a line has to be drawn unfortunately...

Yes the approach taken in Devon and Cornwall is far more sensible than in much of the rest of the UK.

Yes, there are limits, but trains do seem to be held where appropriate, in my experience of travelling in this area.

There is absolutely no way that Northern, TPE, LNER etc would ever adopt a similar approach to what happens on GWR, unless they were forced to do so by some external body. I see no prospect of this ever happening.

Back in the days of HSTs, I was on a train that terminated early at York. The last LNER to Newcastle was briefly held, and this was announced as such, however despatchers were trying to get the train away. An elderly couple were set to miss it, so I held the door open for them. I was called selfish by a dispatcher, but they were left looking foolish when I didn't board, after helping the couple on. I resisted the temptation to issue an insult in return.

I will help people make connections where it is reasonable to do so, and I very much do appreciate it when platform staff / on board staff do the same.

There are many good staff out there, who may be held back by policies in place which don't allow them to adopt a common sense approach. But some of the time, some staff really don't care about how the railway is perceived. It's almost as if they want to be seen as anti-passenger and deter people from using the service.

I would like to see managers be shown how railways are run in various other countries; it can be a huge eye-opener! Sadly, think their approach would be to declare other countries as 'wrong' or deem that 'it can't be done here' or similar.

In theory, every train is a connecting train depending on late running. So this comment makes no sense… I suggest shutting your eyes next time you arrive at a terminus or busy interchange station.

The railway runs to time. Sometimes it runs late, sometimes passengers run late, but hopefully and more importantly, it strives to run on time.

We need to remove people from roads and for more people to use the railway and find it an appealing alternative.
To make it less reliable doesn’t achieve this aim and ultimately makes the service less appealing to all.

I guess you don't realise that @bahnause works on a railway network with vastly higher satisfaction, punctuality and usage, than we have anywhere in the UK.

 

[MikeWM]

I guess the issue at Liskeard is that such a delay on the branch service is likely to wreck the connections with main line services for those travelling the other way when the branch train returns from Looe

Having been doing this a couple of weeks back and ended up spending rather longer at Liskeard than I'd have liked, I feel the need to ask 'what connections?'.

Eg. the 1444 arrival at Liskeard from Looe, 1446 departure back to Looe, just misses being a connection to or from either the 1442 to Plymouth or the 1446 to Penzance. It is hard to see how it could be worse timed, as currently it *just* misses all 4 possible connections.

 

[Zomboid]

If that's a clockface pattern all day then yes, but if not there may be better connections at other times

 

[yorkie]

Having been doing this a couple of weeks back and ended up spending rather longer at Liskeard than I'd have liked, I feel the need to ask 'what connections?'.

Eg. the 1444 arrival at Liskeard from Looe, 1446 departure back to Looe, just misses being a connection to or from either the 1442 to Plymouth or the 1446 to Penzance. It is hard to see how it could be worse timed, as currently it *just* misses all 4 possible connections.

There are certainly some good connections at Liskeard; I did a quick random search for earlier today, and found numerous instances of circa 10 minutes connections in both directions.

However, the lack of consistency in this area is symptomatic of the wider problem we have in this country, in terms of a lack of consideration for connections.

 

[Horizon22]

There are certainly some good connections at Liskeard; I did a quick random search for earlier today, and found numerous instances of circa 10 minutes connections in both directions.

However, the lack of consistency in this area is symptomatic of the wider problem we have in this country, in terms of a lack of consideration for connections.

It’s just much easier on branches to authorise a hold where the knock-on impact of holding for 5-10 minutes is minimal to non-existent. GWR has a written policy on this at certain locations (e.g. if train 1Axx is late up to #mins at station B then a hold of up to #mins is authorised on 2Bxx)

In other places - such as TPE or Northern has been quoted - holding one train might mean the passengers on the held train might miss their connections or a hold of 5 minutes might mean a missed slot at a key junction and a 15 minute late arrival which caused further disruption and so on. This isn’t hyperbole and definitely happens which is why trains can be delayed at Gatwick due to something that happened at Crewe 4 hours earlier. Perhaps at certain locations it might be feasible to write in policies - and apply them evenly - but there will definitely be difficulties and a lot of factors to consider.

We’ve had threads like these before and there simply isn’t a good answer; the main thing is to keep trains punctual and reliable in the first place by reducing the amount & length of primary incidents as it’s quite an intense network based around clockface frequencies (for the most part) rather than connections.

 

[yorkie]

It’s just much easier on branches to authorise a hold where the knock-on impact of holding for 5-10 minutes is minimal to non-existent.

In other places - such as TPE or Northern has been quoted - holding one train might mean the passengers on the held train might miss their connections or a hold of 5 minutes might mean a missed slot at a key junction and a 15 minute late arrival which caused further disruption and so on. This isn’t hyperbole and definitely happens which is why trains can be delayed at Gatwick due to something that happened at Crewe 4 hours earlier.

We’ve had threads like these before and there simply isn’t a good answer; the main thing is to keep trains punctual and reliable in the first place by reducing the amount & length of primary incidents as it’s quite an intense network based around clockface frequencies (for the most part) rather than connections.

I am not convinced; are you absolutely sure it's nothing to do with the fact that the connections in question are within the same company?

In any case, this isn't a satisfactory situation; if what you say is true, then there is still a root cause that shouldn't exist.