France wants to expand cross-border and domestic night train services

[Feuillesmortes]

Please tell me how? Sheffield to Barcelona leaving no earlier than 1600 on Friday 15th July and returning no later than Wed 27th July at 2359.

Thanks, John

I know it was just an example of where planes are easier, but hopefully you will start a thread under Trip Planning as people have ideas you might not have considered!

 

[Shrop]

Cunard charges enough to make a profit.

Amtrak charge enough, and get enough subsidy, to break even.

the Ferry companies charge enough to make a profit

Not sure why you would say this. Making a profit results from providing a service that people want to use, which can be quite incidental to the raising of charges. But I think you know this

 

[edwin_m]

Not sure why you would say this. Making a profit results from providing a service that people want to use, which can be quite incidental to the raising of charges. But I think you know this

But there are also situations where people may want to use a service, but not enough of them are willing to pay the price that is necessary for the provider to make a profit.

 

[Shrop]

The essence of the difficulty with overnight services through the Channel Tunnel can be summarised as follows (though see other threads for much more discussion):

1. The powers that be won't accept on-board checking of paperwork for services between the UK and mainland Europe. Therefore you need "border station" facilities at each station where people might want to get on or off the train.
2. Unlike day-time services - which have only a handful of (mostly fairly intensively-used) destinations at each end of the Eurostar journey, often only one at each end of course - overnight services would probably only be viable if they picked up and dropped off people at quite a few places at or near each end. This would mean, for any train, various major stations north/west of London and/or various major stations in countries beyond France and Benelux; but none of these stations is currently set up or staffed to host border facilities, and it's not considered viable to install such at so many places for (in each case) only a very few services per day.

Having on-train formalities (as people in some other places are quite used to) might enable popular services between, say, Scotland and northern England to Brussels/Paris, and between London and various central European capitals. Maybe even between Scotland and places beyond France too. At least the problems to be solved would then be only technical (and surmountable) rather than political (and seemingly insurmountable; no-one seems to think that on-train formalities are other than political fantasy-land).

All I said was that you would have to find an answer to the border control and subsidy issues. How would you solve them? I have no idea, personally.

I can't disagree, border controls undoubtedly do throw a large spanner into this. If the UK had relationships with EU countries like they do with each other then night trains might be possible. Anyone who has travelled much in Europe in recent years knows that you can often now travel between EU countries with little or even no border checks at all. And yet when the UK was part of the EU, showing passports entering or leaving the UK remained mandatory right up until we left, which meant it never really felt that we were a trusted part of the EU.

So although I don't entirely concede on the practicalities of running trains into mainland Europe, I do concede that border controls make night trains an extremely difficult prospect for the foreseeable future.

 

[StephenHunter]

The primary issue is with border checks for people coming to the UK; you don't really get many non-standard immigrants going south. There are already pre-clearance facilities at Paris Gare du Nord, Lille Europe and most Eurostar stations.

But we did this before, with the Night Ferry, before the EEC even existed.

 

[30907]

I think you are correct (and still designated as sleepers, not as couchettes). I'm not sure how widespread.

LNER and LMSR certainly, not sure about GWR - for 3rd Class, "proper" sleepers were 1st Class only until the BR Mk1 build AFAIK.

Isn't the peak arrival time into London on Eurostar trains later than it is into other stations? I wouldn't have thought commuters into London would have been such a demand on Eurostar pathings ...

Arrivals from Paris at 0830 and 0900 this spring - the hour's time difference makes early arrivals possible without crack-of-dawn starts.

 

[Austriantrain]

And yet when the UK was part of the EU, showing passports entering or leaving the UK remained mandatory right up until we left, which meant it never really felt that we were a trusted part of the EU.

I really hope this is a joke. It was the UK that insisted on keeping border controls, not the EU, which would have been more than happy to accept the UK into Schengen.

 

[Shrop]

I really hope this is a joke. It was the UK that insisted on keeping border controls, not the EU, which would have been more than happy to accept the UK into Schengen.

I didn't say the UK weren't welcomed by the EU, my point was that showing passports remained mandatory throughout the UK membership, which means border controls were never easy. If this was the fault of the UK, that's a separate matter.

Arrivals from Paris at 0830 and 0900 this spring - the hour's time difference makes early arrivals possible without crack-of-dawn starts.

And do those arrival times make it hard to incorporate a couple of sleeper services into the route capacity?

 

[AlbertBeale]

I really hope this is a joke. It was the UK that insisted on keeping border controls, not the EU, which would have been more than happy to accept the UK into Schengen.

The Schengen zone, although a function of an EU idea, has never included all EU countries (ie the UK wasn't the only EU member outside Schengen); conversely, Schengen does include some non-EU countries.

The UK does work with other individual countries over shared visa/immigration policy etc (eg the UK and Ireland - and the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands in fact - have for ages been part of a Common Travel Area [outside Schengen]). But the UK government didn't trust an EU institution [as opposed to other specific countries], like the European Commission, to have a key role in deciding who was or wasn't allowed into the UK and under what circumstances. And part of the rationale has always been that since the UK is on islands, controlling flows across its border is much easier than it is for countries in mainland Europe. So if the UK was tied into a joint policy with (most of) the EU, it would mean that the EU's necessarily laxer control over who entered those countries would degrade the UK's certainty as to who was able to enter the UK.

It also works another way round too - the reason some other EU countries are outside the Schengen zone isn't always because they want to be outside, but because EU institutions don't trust those countries' border controls, and so keep the "Schengen border" excluding those countries in order to protect the rest of the EU from entry by people the EU might not want to enter.

 

[daodao]

The Schengen zone, although a function of an EU idea, has never included all EU countries (ie the UK wasn't the only EU member outside Schengen); conversely, Schengen does include some non-EU countries.

The UK does work with other individual countries over shared visa/immigration policy etc (eg the UK and Ireland - and the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands in fact - have for ages been part of a Common Travel Area [outside Schengen]). But the UK government didn't trust an EU institution [as opposed to other specific countries], like the European Commission, to have a key role in deciding who was or wasn't allowed into the UK and under what circumstances. And part of the rationale has always been that since the UK is on islands, controlling flows across its border is much easier than it is for countries in mainland Europe. So if the UK was tied into a joint policy with (most of) the EU, it would mean that the EU's necessarily laxer control over who entered those countries would degrade the UK's certainty as to who was able to enter the UK.

It also works another way round too - the reason some other EU countries are outside the Schengen zone isn't always because they want to be outside, but because EU institutions don't trust those countries' border controls, and so keep the "Schengen border" excluding those countries in order to protect the rest of the EU from entry by people the EU might not want to enter.

I don't think that France would want an absence of border controls with the UK. The French attitude to Perfidious Albion is outlined in detail in this article by the late Michel Rocard (former French PM and fervent EU advocate) published in Le Monde and subsequently the Guardian in June 2014, entitled:

"A French message to Britain: get out of Europe before you wreck it".

A French message to Britain: get out of Europe before you wreck it | Michel Rocard | The Guardian

I took this message into account when voting on 23/6/16.

 

[Austriantrain]

The Schengen zone, although a function of an EU idea, has never included all EU countries (ie the UK wasn't the only EU member outside Schengen); conversely, Schengen does include some non-EU countries.

The UK does work with other individual countries over shared visa/immigration policy etc (eg the UK and Ireland - and the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands in fact - have for ages been part of a Common Travel Area [outside Schengen]). But the UK government didn't trust an EU institution [as opposed to other specific countries], like the European Commission, to have a key role in deciding who was or wasn't allowed into the UK and under what circumstances. And part of the rationale has always been that since the UK is on islands, controlling flows across its border is much easier than it is for countries in mainland Europe. So if the UK was tied into a joint policy with (most of) the EU, it would mean that the EU's necessarily laxer control over who entered those countries would degrade the UK's certainty as to who was able to enter the UK.

It also works another way round too - the reason some other EU countries are outside the Schengen zone isn't always because they want to be outside, but because EU institutions don't trust those countries' border controls, and so keep the "Schengen border" excluding those countries in order to protect the rest of the EU from entry by people the EU might not want to enter.

I am aware of all the reasons. It’s still wrong to claim that the EU didn’t trust the British, as the OP did.

 

[daodao]

I am aware of all the reasons. It’s still wrong to claim that the EU didn’t trust the British, as the OP did.

But the French don't trust the UK (hence the widely used term Perfidious Albion), and the Channel Tunnel rail line links the UK with France, not Poland for example.

 

[30907]

And do those arrival times make it hard to incorporate a couple of sleeper services into the route capacity?

No - I was answering your question about the start of Eurostar's morning peak.

Assuming all the other well-rehearsed issues could be resolved, there would be paths, but St Pancras International isn't over-endowed with capacity, so they'd have to be clear of the station before those first arrivals. As international night trains aren't noted for punctuality, you would want arrivals around 0700 and a generously slack schedule.

The primary issue is with border checks for people coming to the UK; you don't really get many non-standard immigrants going south.

But we did this before, with the Night Ferry, before the EEC even existed.

We did, but HMG was happy for 100-odd sleeper passengers a day to be cleared at Victoria then. 10,000 a day would have been another matter even then.

 

[edwin_m]

I didn't say the UK weren't welcomed by the EU, my point was that showing passports remained mandatory throughout the UK membership, which means border controls were never easy. If this was the fault of the UK, that's a separate matter.


And do those arrival times make it hard to incorporate a couple of sleeper services into the route capacity?

No - I was answering your question about the start of Eurostar's morning peak.

Assuming all the other well-rehearsed issues could be resolved, there would be paths, but St Pancras International isn't over-endowed with capacity, so they'd have to be clear of the station before those first arrivals. As international night trains aren't noted for punctuality, you would want arrivals around 0700 and a generously slack schedule.


We did, but HMG was happy for 100-odd sleeper passengers a day to be cleared at Victoria then. 10,000 a day would have been another matter even then.

You'd also need the sleeper to keep ahead of following Eurostars and Javelins, so the stock would need at least the 225km/h capability of the Javelins and sufficient locomotive power to reach this speed in a reasonable time while staying within whatever axleload restriction is applicable at that speed. These capabilities might not be needed elsewhere on the sleepers' journeys, because most high speed lines are closed at night and in a lot of cases the sleepers run slower than day trains so the departure and arrival are at acceptable times.

It's far more likely that the best the UK will get is a connection in Paris with Eurostar (or in Brussels for some non-French services). Unfortunately this would be a change of station in Paris, not just a change of train.

 

[StephenHunter]

The new Nightjet stock is cleared for 230 km/h.

 

[Bald Rick]

But we did this before, with the Night Ferry, before the EEC even existed.

It was pretty difficult to get out of Eastern Europe back then, unlike now, which is one of the main concerns of those who set our border policy.

And do those arrival times make it hard to incorporate a couple of sleeper services into the route capacity?

Yes. Beacause in (normal) peak rimes there’s also 8 Javelins an hour on the route, running at a different speed. If the sleeper was to come into London in the morning via HS1, it would need to be in London before about 7-730. That means leaving - say - Barcelona around 1800 the night before.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

LNER and LMSR certainly, not sure about GWR - for 3rd Class, "proper" sleepers were 1st Class only until the BR Mk1 build AFAIK.

LM Region 1961 (Timetable World) and Scottish Region 1962 (my own copy) timetables both refer to the availability of 4 berth sleepers for which a rug and pillow were provided so these were effectively 4 berth couchettes as per the continental model although of course until comparatively recent times around Europe 4 berth was only available in first class (and I think only in France and Italy) with six berth in second class.

In the early sixties berth charges for journeys entirely within either Scotland or England were lower than for cross border services although with Mk1 sleepers by then in service 2 berth was available in second class. For a cross border journey in 1962 it was 40 shillings in single first class, interestingly 35 shillings single second class, twenty two and sixpence 2nd class 2 berth and 14 shillings second class 4 berth (second class single berth not available for non cross border journeys and for berth charging purposes Berwick and Carlisle were regarded as being in Scotland)!

Referring to my 1966 ScR timetable only first class single single and second class two berth were available, and now only UK wide pricing, still forty shillings first but second had rises to twenty six shillings.

I haven't researched further to discover when between 1962 and 1966 the four berths disappeared. Some ex LMS and LNER sleepers did remain in service until at least the late 1970s although obviously not the 4 berth variety.

 

[paul1609]

No - I was answering your question about the start of Eurostar's morning peak.

Assuming all the other well-rehearsed issues could be resolved, there would be paths, but St Pancras International isn't over-endowed with capacity, so they'd have to be clear of the station before those first arrivals. As international night trains aren't noted for punctuality, you would want arrivals around 0700 and a generously slack schedule.

Personally I don't think we will see channel sleepers but if you wanted to run them why not Use London Stratford International? That has 2 unused platforms and customs and a better shopping centre than St Pancras.

 

[Roast Veg]

Yes. Beacause in (normal) peak rimes there’s also 8 Javelins an hour on the route, running at a different speed. If the sleeper was to come into London in the morning via HS1, it would need to be in London before about 7-730. That means leaving - say - Barcelona around 1800 the night before.

Not outside the realms of possibility, as long as there's a nice evening meal to go with it, and good windows.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not outside the realms of possibility, as long as there's a nice evening meal to go with it, and good windows.

Well of course you could leave Barcelona at 1800 for a tenth of the cost of a sleeper ticket (unsubsidised) on that trip, and be in London in time for a lateish dinner the same night. Which is of course what almost everyone would do.

 

[D6130]

I think it's rather a pity that the revitalised French overnight services only provide couchettes and not private one, two, or three berth sleepers. I suppose the latter are not considered to be viable any more.

 

[StephenHunter]

I think it's rather a pity that the revitalised French overnight services only provide couchettes and not private one, two, or three berth sleepers. I suppose the latter are not considered to be viable any more.

SNCF are planning to get new sleepers as part of their revival.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I think it's rather a pity that the revitalised French overnight services only provide couchettes and not private one, two, or three berth sleepers. I suppose the latter are not considered to be viable any more.

Yet they seen to be are viable for Nightjet - 2 sleepers in a four coach portion to Brussels, and two in a train of 7 to Paris, both also including seats as well as couchettes. .

I suppose viability would depend at what price they were pitched, and availability of suitable stock could well be an issue particularly as these days some en-suite provision might be seen as a must

In the past there seemed to be a great variance from route to route between the balance of couchettes and sleepers in France presumably reflecting different patterns of demand.
e.g as late as 1979 'le Train Bleu' was still conveying only sleeping cars (by 1981 couchettes had been added) although there were several other trains on the same route conveying a mix of sleepers, couchettes and seats, and the former Calais to San Remo (later Ventimiglia) sleeper(s) were by now on the 'Flandres Riviera' along with couchettes together with portions of couchettes from Lille and Amsterdam, the latter attaching sleepers from Brussels (and running multi portioned on busy dates). I recall seeing the main Toulouse to Paris overnight train in the same era with a formation which has stuck in my memory, 2 x T2 sleepers, 2 x First Class Couchettes and 8 second class couchettes. In 2004 The Flandres Riviera was in its dying stages, just Lille to Nice (or Ventimiglia - we got off at Cannes so I can't remember the destination), one T2 sleeper and five or six couchettes. Wonder of wonders we were able to get home comfortably in a day from Cannes courtesy of TGV and Eurostar which tells at least part of the story of the demise of such trains.

A resumption of some sort of overnight Paris to Italy offering would also be a plus. I recall my first experience of the Palatino in the early 80s was an eye opener - 3 sleepers EDIT: 7 (not 5 as shown earlier) couchettes for Rome, and two sleepers three couchettes for Florence - flus one first class seated coach and the Grill Express for Chambery, load 17. By 1995 when I travelled from Pisa to Paris it had of course been split in to separate trains from Rome and Florence, with the Rome train now 4 sleepers and 9 couchettes. Obviously demand fell off over the years but I do wonder if today's pricing structures might have made a difference.

SNCF are planning to get new sleepers as part of their revival.

This came in as I was finalising my response, excellent news.

 

[StephenHunter]

Most of the historical sleeper routes only had one or two sleepers on them, with couchettes and seating vehicles making up the rest. The Orient Expresses generally only had one or two vehicles going the whole way and not every day of the week.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Most of the historical sleeper routes only had one or two sleepers on them, with couchettes and seating vehicles making up the rest. The Orient Expresses generally only had one or two vehicles going the whole way and not every day of the week.

Of course, one train I recall using was Munich to Ostend (early 1990s), one sleeper one couchette and five seated coaches and an identical portion for Amsterdam with something similar from Vienna. Clearly the routes I described above were the exceptions with high demand.

 

[StephenHunter]

Of course, one train I recall using was Munich to Ostend (early 1990s), one sleeper one couchette and five seated coaches and an identical portion for Amsterdam with something similar from Vienna. Clearly the routes I described above were the exceptions with high demand.

Indeed. The Summer 1965 CIWL Timetable I have in my collection has the Night Ferry, Le Train Bleu and a Rome-Milan service as the formations with more than five sleepers, couchettes not being listed there.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Indeed. The Summer 1965 CIWL Timetable I have in my collection has the Night Ferry, Le Train Bleu and a Rome-Milan service as the formations with more than five sleepers, couchettes not being listed there.

Your 1965 CIWL Timetable sounds like genuine treasure!

I have 1981 and 1992 TEN International Sleeping Car timetables and 1974 Cooks.
1981 Hamburg to Basel 'Komet' had 4 sleepers - one of which was from from Bremen and attached Hannover and one which continued to Chur, plus two winter seasonal sleepers (but not every day), Hamburg to Brig and Bremen to Chur. Although by then TEN pool it would previously I assume have been DSG and not CIWL. This was a sleepers and couchettes (to both Basel and Chur) only train, there weren't that many of them.
There was a second train, mixed sleepers, couchettes and seats train with two sleeping cars, probably more aimed at the southern German cities - Karslruhe 06.03 southbound 22.00 northbound - Komet arrived Basel (SBB) at 06.51.

 

[StephenHunter]

The Timetable I have is in French, but includes carriage plans for the entire CIWL fleet, including the Middle Eastern and African stuff!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The Timetable I have is in French, but includes carriage plans for the entire CIWL fleet, including the Middle Eastern and African stuff!

Even more of a treasure then ! ! !
And timings for Middle East and Africa too?

 

[StephenHunter]

Yes. I'm planning to lend it to Timetable World.