Fratton station: not fit for purpose and due a rebuild

[paul1609]

Moderator note: Split from

Advance Tickets - Leaving Train at Fratton when destination is "Portsmouth All Stations"

If using an "Advance" ticket, if I select "Portsmouth (All Stations)" on the National Rail website, does this include Fratton or is it restricted to Portsmouth and Southsea, and Portsmouth Harbour? I appreciate that with Advance Tickets, you are not permitted to break the journey, or leave the...

www.railforums.co.uk

I usually get a train in from the coastway a couple of hours before the match the barriers are usually in use but they open them when the crowds back on to the platform. Have a look at the condition of the old footbridge Id suggest it's probably not long for this world.

In fact the whole station isn't real fit to be the busiest station in Portsmouth with the short and very narrow platform. It's long since due a rebuild

 

[Pompey00]

I usually get a train in from the coastway a couple of hours before the match the barriers are usually in use but they open them when the crowds back on to the platform. Have a look at the condition of the old footbridge Id suggest it's probably not long for this world.
In fact the whole station isn't real fit to be the busiest station in Portsmouth with the short and very narrow platform. It's long since due a rebuild

It’s a very old station and busiest in Portsmouth when Pompey are home or. Just in general as a lot of people start their journeys from Fratton or change there to go to other routes. I’ve seen what the platforms get like during football they close one shutter of the booking hall during football and keep other open for ticket office and cafe but open the gateline and have people manning the side entrance and footbridge entrances opening and close them when it gets busy to stop congesting as the drunk fans don’t move all the way along and stay under the canopies so they can’t physically let more people on unless they move up.

 

[paul1609]

The football arrangements aren't fit for purpose. The situation was made worse when to improve accessibility a lift and bridge was built obstructing the main Northbound Platform that was already far too short for accommodating many of the trains that called there. This resulted in the width of the platform being restricted in the area where the train doors open such that the whole platform area is hatched off. How this was ever approved is beyond me, the station should have lost its grandfather rights to operate as a result of what's a major alteration.

 

[CoshamRich]

We could probably have a whole thread about it. I'm not sure how they could widen the platform, which is only restricted by the new bridge and the lift structure. It's a shame they can't make platform 1 for Havant services and P2 for Cosham for an hour or so after the match but I guess that would be a lot of hassle.

 

[Haywain]

as the drunk fans don’t move all the way along

Corrected that for you.

 

[Pompey00]

Corrected that for you.

Most are drunk though and ignore the announcements to move further along

 

[Haywain]

Some are drunk though

Out of the numbers seeking to board trains after a match at Fratton Park, that will be a small minority.

 

[Pompey00]

Out of the numbers seeking to board trains after a match at Fratton Park, that will be a small minority.

there is quite a few I’ve worked at fratton doing crowd control and also gone through as customer going places and people just ignore the announcements meaning they have close gates and stop people coming in until the platform has cleared a bit meaning customers get angry

 

[Haywain]

They are quite few I’ve been as customer and worked there during they announce it so many times and cause people ignore it the only option is to close the gates until it’s cleared when they have boarded train

Are you suggesting that all the sober passengers dutifully wander off the to the ends of the platform, but not the "drunks"? Perhaps you could consider the problem is that many of the trains calling at Fratton don't actually use the whole platform so people don't go too far for fear of being in the wrong place.

 

[Pompey00]

Are you suggesting that all the sober passengers dutifully wander off the to the ends of the platform, but not the "drunks"? Perhaps you could consider the problem is that many of the trains calling at Fratton don't actually use the whole platform so people don't go too far for fear of being in the wrong place.

Not all drunk no but most people like to drink before, during and after the game so it plays a major part in them not listening to announcements meaning they have stop people coming in and out until it’s cleared and they can’t use the whole platform if it’s a shorter carriage they’ve got to stop at the marker but I know what you mean say if the station they are getting off at is a short platform they need be in a certain carriage and cannot physically move through the train when it’s packed if they are in the wrong one

It’s like during football like I said they have stop people coming in so stop congestion until it’s cleared and people also don’t listen to the stand behind the lines hence why they try limit the people coming in until they’ve boarded the train as if someone falls on the track due to over crowding their family would be the first to sue

 

[Haywain]

Not all drunk no but most people like to drink before, during and after the game

It's best not to generalise on things you don't actually know about. Some people do that but they are not in a majority, by any means.

it plays a major part in them not listening to announcements

After a football match people tend to have plenty to talk about, which is why they may not hear announcements.

It’s like during football like I said they have stop people coming in so stop congestion

That's what happens when 20,000 people leave a nearby venue all at the same time. Those who want a drink after the match will actually help the situation by not arriving at the station at the busiest time.

 

[paul1609]

T

Corrected that for you.

The fans aren't drunk they are listening to the Fratton PIS Saturday and trying to position themselves on the platform accordingly
"Platform 1 for the 15.31 Great Western Service to Cardiff Central and Bristol Temple Meads. Please make sure you travel in the correct part of the train Join the front three coaches for Cosham, Fareham... and Bristol Temple Meads. At Bristol Temple Meads the 3 rear coaches will be detached and will continue to Filton Abbey Wood... And Cardiff Central.
First Class is situated in coach G. This train stops in Zones 3 to 7.
This train is formed of 3 carriages. This train is reported as full and standing from Portsmouth Harbour"
Like I say not fit for purpose.

 

[Pompey00]

It's best not to generalise on things you don't actually know about. Some people do that but they are not in a majority, by any means.

After a football match people tend to have plenty to talk about, which is why they may not hear announcements.

That's what happens when 20,000 people leave a nearby venue all at the same time. Those who want a drink after the match will actually help the situation by not arriving at the station at the busiest time.

Exactly wether drunk or not it’s down to them to listen

And tbf it don’t help that gwr for example don’t put enough carriages on

 

[Haywain]

And tbf it don’t help that gwr for example don’t put enough carriages on

That's a bit of a silly thing to say - after the match at Fratton Park on Saturday it was only the trains to Waterloo that consisted of more than 4 coaches, and yet you want people to use the full length of the platform? And no amount of announcements will make any difference if people already know from experience that their train won't use those parts of the platform. If Fratton station is now deemed to be unsuitable then concentrate on changes that solve the problems, rather than blaming them on an entirely unsurprising number of customers after a football match.

 

[Pompey00]

That's a bit of a silly thing to say - after the match at Fratton Park on Saturday it was only the trains to Waterloo that consisted of more than 4 coaches, and yet you want people to use the full length of the platform? And no amount of announcements will make any difference if people already know from experience that their train won't use those parts of the platform. If Fratton station is now deemed to be unsuitable then concentrate on changes that solve the problems, rather than blaming them on an entirely unsurprising number of customers after a football match.

Either way they don’t put enough coaches on sometimes no matter the toc but even when there is don’t use the full length of the platform but use to dealing with customers what don’t listen

 

[CoshamRich]

If Fratton station is now deemed to be unsuitable then concentrate on changes that solve the problems, rather than blaming them on an entirely unsurprising number of customers after a football match.

I'm sure that for 99% of the time Fratton is perfectly adequate, there are issues after the football but whether that warrants major alterations is debateable. Fratton station is perhaps unusual in that it has 3 major routes out of the City all served from a single platform. Crowd control has to be implemented and a queueing system is put in place and numbers joining the platform are rightly limited for safety and overcrowding concerns.

However if the first wave of passengers dont require the first train to arrive, then that train departs, the platform is still fairly full so the gates don't get opened which leads to frustration for those "locked out" add in several hundred away fans and the situation can get a bit tense at times.

I'm not sure how this can be addressed or even if it's worth addressing given the issues are limited to post match crowds on 20 odd times a year. I'm lucky enough to be a member of the rail social club located just outside the station so can relax in there with a beer until the crowds subside.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

And tbf it don’t help that gwr for example don’t put enough carriages on

Where do you suppose GWR find the extra units when they have another 10/11 football clubs in their region outside London where Turbos or 158s will be being used to covey passengers?

 

[HSTEd]

Not really much possibility of a rebuild given the depot is in the way.

I suppose ideally you'd have an island platform dedicated to east/northbound trains, and an island for trains bound for Portsmouth.

As it is the outbound trains are split between two non connected platform faces.
The depot would have to go, but I imagine the site is worth quite a lot for redevelopment.

 

[Haywain]

The depot would have to go, but I imagine the site is worth quite a lot for redevelopment.

And against that you can set the enormous cost of providing a replacement facility.

 

[Monty]

The situation at Fratton can get complex during match day, as the crowding issues does provide challenges. But the rest of the time it's not too bad and is perfectly manageable.

Dispatch on platform 2 can be tricky with anything longer than 5 coaches, but that could be solved with replacing the CCTV Dispatch monitors and moving them to better locations now that manual SDO is a thing of the past.

Another idea without demolishing the whole station would be to remove both existing footbridges and replace the original (which I am told is in a poor state or repair anyway and needs remedial work) and build a new bridge with lifts on the country end of the station. It wouldn't be cheap but would certainly be cheaper than leveling the whole station and starting again.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has the aspirational station improvements ever been on an official agenda of works to be carried out?

 

[fkofilee]

Personally I think this could be fixed with the below;

1 x Extra Platform
Remove Existing bridges and build a large pathway bridge across the station with potential building at one end with Barriers etc etc *Guildford Style"



Call me a Crayonista... But you could move one of the stock lines from the depot to make a platform I suspect - The Larger Orange part is the building for additional access / Space. There is plenty of room for it.

 

[30907]

If the issue is about crowding the Up side after matches, could some trains use P2 (which seems to be signalled bidirectionally)? I think you would need to install a new facing crossover at the Down end to avoid delaying Down trains off P3.

 

[Haywain]

I think you would need to install a new facing crossover at the Down end to avoid delaying Down trains off P3.

Not worth the money - this is Portsmouth FC we're talking about, not Wembley Stadium! The stadium will be at capacity no more than 25 times a year, which makes the station busy for no more than a couple of hours on each occasion. It would be far easier and cheaper to put some crowd control measures in place in the car park.

 

[Meerkat]

Personally I think this could be fixed with the below;

1 x Extra Platform
Remove Existing bridges and build a large pathway bridge across the station with potential building at one end with Barriers etc etc *Guildford Style"

View attachment 163993

Call me a Crayonista... But you could move one of the stock lines from the depot to make a platform I suspect - The Larger Orange part is the building for additional access / Space. There is plenty of room for it.

Where your orange building is there is scrub and ugly storage yards. Clear that out and tarmac it - most of the time it can be a station car park earning money, but on match days it can be space for a queuing system with multiple queues so that passengers can be called forward to the platform in the order their trains will arrive.

 

[Father Jack]

That map is out of date, the satellite image shows the correct layout. Putting a platform there would take out the fuel point, as well as severing the Harbour end connection to 4&5 Old Yard CET roads and the freight road, all of which are in daily use.

 

[MrToad]

It is a complete mess on matchday after the match.

The first (realistic) train after a match in the Havant direction is the 1719 Southern Service. This is usually only 4 carriages long. This results in people after having been told to use the entire length of the platform then rushing back down the platform to try and get into the first carriage.

The first train after a match in the Cosham direction is the 1731 GWR service. Again this is only 4 coaches. People then waiting for this train who start to arrive in numbers at 1710 then fill the platform, meaning the gate has to be closed, so those wanting the 1719 or 1724 Waterloo train then have to stand outside looking helplessly on as their train arrives and departs but they are prevented from getting on the platform by those wanting to go to Cosham/Fareham.

Football fixtures are known well in advance. Why can the powers that be "simply" put on longer trains when they know how busy it will be? They used to put a 1723 train on to Eastleigh after matches, but this has not reappeared since Covid.

Also something I have seen discussed is why can they not repurpose the platforms such that Platform 1 is for trains going in the Cosham/Porchester/Fareham direction, and then use Platform 2 for trains going in the Havant and then Petersfield or Chichester directions? Platform 3 would continue to be used for Town and Southsea/Harbour. This means you won't have everyone cramming onto Platform 1 and blocking it for others until their train arrives - they will be able to leave on the first train that comes in to their platform.

And for evening kickoffs, the first train back to Havant is 2219 - which is 4 coaches. This is for a match that typically finishes at 2140. And they wonder why people prefer to drive and put up with the horrendous traffic and parking.

 

[weeklycommuter]

There is a proposal for a new footbridge from Fratton Railway Station to Fratton Park football ground. See the following links.

Stephen Morgan MP brings Network Rail and Pompey chiefs together for summit on station improvements

www.stephenmorgan.org.uk

Pompey chief's update on Fratton footbridge wrangle pivotal to Fratton redevelopment

The future of the proposed Fratton train station footbridge won’t become clear until next year - but progress is encouraging.

www.portsmouth.co.uk

The fans aren't drunk they are listening to the Fratton PIS Saturday and trying to position themselves on the platform accordingly
"Platform 1 for the 15.31 Great Western Service to Cardiff Central and Bristol Temple Meads. Please make sure you travel in the correct part of the train Join the front three coaches for Cosham, Fareham... and Bristol Temple Meads. At Bristol Temple Meads the 3 rear coaches will be detached and will continue to Filton Abbey Wood... And Cardiff Central.
First Class is situated in coach G. This train stops in Zones 3 to 7.
This train is formed of 3 carriages. This train is reported as full and standing from Portsmouth Harbour"
Like I say not fit for purpose.

I previously raised with South Western Railway the issue of the Fratton Station PIS making announcements about first class on the standard class only Great Western Railway trains Portsmouth Harbour to and from Cardiff Central. South Western Railway confirmed these trains have been standard class only since 1988 and said they had contacted the relevant information team.

 

[CoshamRich]

The first train after a match in the Cosham direction is the 1731 GWR service. Again this is only 4 coaches. People then waiting for this train who start to arrive in numbers at 1710 then fill the platform, meaning the gate has to be closed, so those wanting the 1719 or 1724 Waterloo train then have to stand outside looking helplessly on as their train arrives and departs but they are prevented from getting on the platform by those wanting to go to Cosham/Fareham.

Also something I have seen discussed is why can they not repurpose the platforms such that Platform 1 is for trains going in the Cosham/Porchester/Fareham direction, and then use Platform 2 for trains going in the Havant and then Petersfield or Chichester directions? Platform 3 would continue to be used for Town and Southsea/Harbour. This means you won't have everyone cramming onto Platform 1 and blocking it for others until their train arrives - they will be able to leave on the first train that comes in to their platform.

The incoming service was short cancelled at platform 2 Fratton on saturday after the game as it was running 35 mins late from Cardiff. There was some confusion as the onboard PA system wasn't working and the staff were walking through telling passengers of the change. I'm not sure if this change was communicated to the queue on platform 1 but it did show that the option could be used for a couple of hours on a matchday.

 

[Andrew Smith]

As a Pompey supporter who uses the train I can add to what has already been said.

The 17:31 train on a Saturday is not always 4 carriages. Sometimes two, three or even five.

In 2004 the club submitted a planning application for an enlarged ground. A travel survey at the time indicated that 90% of supporters using the train travelled no further than either Havant or Fareham. I doubt whether the numbers have changed much. An extra train on matchdays from Fratton to Eastleigh would be sensible. For a Saturday 3pm kick off timed to depart Fratton before the Cardiff train.

Access to platform 1 is via the entrance beyond the ticket barriers. The lift shaft does indeed create a pinch point. Supporters are simultaneously asked to move along the platform and stay behind the yellow line!

Many years ago passengers heading north out of Fratton were held in two queues outside the station. One queue for any trains going via Havant. Another queue for any trains going via Fareham. Each queue was released onto the platform depending on which train was next due in. This meant that after each train departed the platform was largely empty unlike today when half the people on the platform don't want the train that's waiting with people who do want the next train locked out.

Whilst the footbridge may be nearing the end of its useful life and there may be limitations with the station there are solutions that require nil investment; just better management.

There is an issue with access to the footbridge on Goldsmith Avenue. The pavement is very narrow and made even more so with a guard rail at the foot of the steps to prevent people running into the road. It would be perfectly possible to have another flight of steps into an area owned by the railway to the east that would allow pedestrians to move more easily and quickly onto the footbridge.

Whilst the various interested parties explore another route over railway land and tracks to avoid Goldsmith Avenue there is another much neglected route to the station - Milton Lane, footbridge over the tracks to Clarkes Road (and to the station via Byerley Road and Walmer Road. Milton Lane is partially obstructed by overgrown vegetation (my efforts to get PCC to do anything about this is another whole story) and the footbridge is a pinch point being less than half the width than Milton Lane. There is space to create a footbridge the width of the footpath. This would seem to me much cheaper than finding another route and realisable more quickly too.