Fraud threat WMT

[chilledout]

Hi, I’ve received a rather nasty email from WMT - threatening potential prosecution for delay repay claims. Has anyone else had this and how did you deal with it please?

 

[island]

Can you please post the full details of the email you received, excluding any personal identifying information.

 

[chilledout]

West Midland Trains – Delay Repay Scheme



In relation to the above scheme operated by West Midland Trains, the Digital Fraud Team have been notified of several of your recent Delay Repay applications, which have been highlighted as potentially fraudulent.



We view this as a serious issue and have taken this step to write to you to seek an explanation for these initial claims listed below and to see if it is possible to seek to resolve this matter with you without the need for these claims to be handed over to the British Transport Police for further action.

Deleted listed journeys

There are also additional claims that you have made that are not listed and these are also under investigation at this time.



We invite you to respond to us within 7 days by email to [email protected] quoting the reference number xxxxxxx in the subject field.



Once we receive a response from you, we will then be able to assess your case and compare this with our data and review this prior to making a final decision.



Based on your response the decision will be to either (a) offer you the opportunity to re-pay any claims that have proved to have been made fraudulently; or (b) pass your file to the British Transport Police for further action to be taken.



Some people in your situation do sometimes seek independent legal advice and this may be something for you to consider at this stage. By typing in “delay repay fraud or fare evasion specialists” into any search engine it will list many legal specialists in this area who may be able to provide you with legal advice and guidance.

Can you please post the full details of the email you received, excluding any personal identifying information.

West Midland Trains – Delay Repay Scheme



In relation to the above scheme operated by West Midland Trains, the Digital Fraud Team have been notified of several of your recent Delay Repay applications, which have been highlighted as potentially fraudulent.



We view this as a serious issue and have taken this step to write to you to seek an explanation for these initial claims listed below and to see if it is possible to seek to resolve this matter with you without the need for these claims to be handed over to the British Transport Police for further action.

Deleted listed journeys

There are also additional claims that you have made that are not listed and these are also under investigation at this time.



We invite you to respond to us within 7 days by email to [email protected] quoting the reference number xxxxxxx in the subject field.



Once we receive a response from you, we will then be able to assess your case and compare this with our data and review this prior to making a final decision.



Based on your response the decision will be to either (a) offer you the opportunity to re-pay any claims that have proved to have been made fraudulently; or (b) pass your file to the British Transport Police for further action to be taken.



Some people in your situation do sometimes seek independent legal advice and this may be something for you to consider at this stage. By typing in “delay repay fraud or fare evasion specialists” into any search engine it will list many legal specialists in this area who may be able to provide you with legal advice and guidance.

 

[enyoueffsea]

Goes without saying but, the first question is have you making fraudulent claims?

 

[chilledout]

I don’t believe I have claimed fraudulently. I am a season ticket holder and claim for my trains that are cancelled. Often have to catch later trains or simply go home.

 

[furlong]

Is that a physical season ticket or one on a smartcard?

 

[Knoodlepot]

I don’t believe I have claimed fraudulently. I am a season ticket holder and claim for my trains that are cancelled. Often have to catch later trains or simply go home.

I don't believe is not a good start.

 

[chilledout]

Is that a physical season ticket or one on a smartcard?

Bought on an app. An e ticket.

 

[furlong]

What the train company often does is compare the scan data from the e-ticket against your claim.

So look at the first journey they included on their list.

Now think back to what ticket scans you actually had that day.

Put the two together and will it make sense?

If it was a claim for a delay, will the scans match up with the delay you claimed?

If it was a claim for a cancellation, will the scans show that you caught the next available service and were delayed by the amount claimed for?

 

[chilledout]

I don't believe is not a good start.

What the train company often does is compare the scan data from the e-ticket against your claim.

So look at the first journey they included on their list.

Now think back to what ticket scans you actually had that day.

Put the two together and will it make sense?

If it was a claim for a delay, will the scans match up with the delay you claimed?

If it was a claim for a cancellation, will the scans show that you caught the next available service and were delayed by the amount claimed for?

Understood thank you - that’s very helpful. My ticket is very rarely scanned. If at all….there are also no barriers at my departure or arrival station.

 

[fandroid]

If there are very few routine scans of your ticket then it seems they have extremely little evidence with which to back up their threats.

 

[furlong]

So, might they have picked out claims where your ticket was scanned and the times of the scans don't match up?

It can also be the opposite way around - a time when they had ticket inspectors blocking the entrance/exit from a station such that EVERY ticket was scanned but they see that yours wasn't yet would have been if you made the journey claimed.

Look back at the delay repay form you fill in and read ALL the text included and linked to it, checking you are sure you didn't make any false representations in the claims. So long as YOUR declarations are 100% accurate, there's not much they can do.


Things you can't do with West Midlands Railway (NB the rules can be different for different train companies):
Claim for delay repay when you did not make the journey. If a train is cancelled and you decide not to travel, you don't get any compensation under Delay Repay. (If it happened regularly, you could instead make a separate claim under consumer law.)
Claim for delay repay for a train at a different time from the time you actually travelled. Claims are based on the ACTUAL delay you incurred, based on comparing your actual arrival time with the timetabled one. If a train is delayed and you decide to defer your journey and travel a couple of hours later instead, you cannot claim based on the original train you were going to catch, but only based on the schedule of the new one as if you'd planned to catch that one all along.

If there are very few routine scans of your ticket then it seems they have extremely little evidence with which to back up their threats.

We have seen a lot of letters like this where it looks like a fishing expedition, where they seem at best to have circumstantial evidence of something unusual and are hoping people will incriminate themselves in response.

Equally, a lot of people seem to misunderstand Delay Repay and claim it when they shouldn't - but then the train company may be part of the problem by failing to explain the eligibility criteria clearly and not checking properly before accepting and paying out the claims.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t believe I have claimed fraudulently. I am a season ticket holder and claim for my trains that are cancelled. Often have to catch later trains or simply go home.

How many claims have you made, and over what period of time?

Most people know if they’ve committed fraud; equivocation isn’t usually a great sign.

Your first step is to figure out what has made the company suspect you’re defrauding them.

 

[chilledout]

Thank you very much. That’s helpful too. Thank you again.

 

[AlterEgo]

If there are very few routine scans of your ticket then it seems they have extremely little evidence with which to back up their threats.

This isn’t necessarily so. It’s quite possible to detect and prove fraud based even on paper tickets, if people have been claiming for journeys they didn’t take.

 

[furlong]

When you "simply go home" and so don't travel, you cannot claim Delay Repay. Have you done this? Perhaps they detected it.

Another thing that they can catch people for is people who make claims based on railway data on various websites when that doesn't reflect what actually happened to passengers at the station. There are times when people at the station aren't delayed in the way website data suggests they might have been.

 

[chilledout]

When you "simply go home" and so don't travel, you cannot claim Delay Repay. Have you done this? Perhaps they detected it.

Another thing that they can catch people for is people who make claims based on railway data on various websites when that doesn't reflect what actually happened to passengers at the station. There are times when people at the station aren't delayed in the way website data suggests they might have been.

Thank you. I wasn’t aware that I can’t claim for a trip that was cancelled; where I’ve had to alter my arrangements. Also the claim form doesn’t question whether I caught a later trains - the train company decide whether they will refund the single trip - or the return fare….

That said. If I have claimed erroneously - I will offer to pay anything back; if they will allow that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you. I wasn’t aware that I can’t claim for a trip that was cancelled; where I’ve had to alter my arrangements. Also the claim form doesn’t question whether I caught a later trains - the train company decide whether they will refund the single trip - or the return fare….

You can only claim for journeys where you travelled and were delayed. If you just decide to go home, or perhaps travel later instead, you can’t claim.

At this stage you might well be better off saying nothing at all to WMT, either in defence or explanation.

 

[chilledout]

You can only claim for journeys where you travelled and were delayed. If you just decide to go home, or perhaps travel later instead, you can’t claim.

At this stage you might well be better off saying nothing at all to WMT, either in defence or explanation.

Okay. So you’d recommend to not reply to their email please?

 

[furlong]

Indeed the key question is whether you made any false representations to the company when making those claims. It's a high threshold for fraud. E.g. deliberately claiming money to which you knew you weren't entitled - or to which any reasonable person would have known they weren't entitled.

In some cases you might have been able to obtain compensation via other mechanisms (e.g. a price reduction if the company failed to provide the contracted service with appropriate care and skill).


You haven't told us enough details to comment on whether or not it's a good idea to reply. In particular AlterEgo's question about the frequency and value of claims, leading to the question of plausibility under the rules.

 

[AlterEgo]

You haven't told us enough details to comment on whether or not it's a good idea to reply. In particular AlterEgo's question about the frequency and value of claims, leading to the question of plausibility under the rules.

Yes - if you pass the plausibility test, I definitely recommend not replying. If you give us a rough idea of how many claims you have made over a certain time period we can tell you if it stands out as implausible. If you're claiming for every single day at random times - and you just so happen to have been "delayed" by a cancellation every time you wanted to travel, this alone might be enough for the company to really dig deep.

Delay Repay fraud is difficult to prove to a criminal standard but there have been some high profile cases of such fraud which has ended up in jail time.

 

[pelli]

Thank you. I wasn’t aware that I can’t claim for a trip that was cancelled; where I’ve had to alter my arrangements. Also the claim form doesn’t question whether I caught a later trains - the train company decide whether they will refund the single trip - or the return fare….

The WMR claim form asks for "Length of delay" (15+ mins, 30+ mins, 60+ mins or 120+ mins). What length of delay did you claim for if you didn't travel? The length of delay claimed for determines the repay amount (as 12.5%, 25%, 50% or 100%, respectively, of the equivalent daily rate, calculated by dividing the season ticket price by the nominal number of working days it is valid for as outlined under "See how much you're entitled to" on the WMR delay repay information page).

 

[furlong]

Delay Repay fraud is difficult to prove to a criminal standard but there have been some high profile cases of such fraud which has ended up in jail time.

People have been given suspended prison sentences of over a year (plus unpaid work) for false claims totalling over £2000 where the train company produced CCTV evidence showing that they had travelled on earlier trains than the ones they claimed for. All the cases I've seen reported have included clear-cut misrepresentation. (Others created multiple identities or falsified tickets.)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Things you can't do with West Midlands Railway (NB the rules can be different for different train companies):
Claim for delay repay when you did not make the journey. If a train is cancelled and you decide not to travel, you don't get any compensation under Delay Repay. (If it happened regularly, you could instead make a separate claim under consumer law.)
Claim for delay repay for a train at a different time from the time you actually travelled. Claims are based on the ACTUAL delay you incurred, based on comparing your actual arrival time with the timetabled one. If a train is delayed and you decide to defer your journey and travel a couple of hours later instead, you cannot claim based on the original train you were going to catch, but only based on the schedule of the new one as if you'd planned to catch that one all along.

Do we have a source for this please? If it's from WMR's website it might be a useful one to quote if anyone else turns up with a similar case.

 

[fandroid]

People have been given suspended prison sentences of over a year (plus unpaid work) for false claims totalling over £2000 where the train company produced CCTV evidence showing that they had travelled on earlier trains than the ones they claimed for. All the cases I've seen reported have included clear-cut misrepresentation. (Others created multiple identities or falsified tickets.)

If the stations the OP uses have no barriers (as described by the OP) would they have CCTV?

 

[Haywain]

If the stations the OP uses have no barriers (as described by the OP) would they have CCTV?

Yes, but it's pretty unlikely that they'll have checked it.

 

[chilledout]

Thank you All for your input and guidance; all remedied with WMT today. There was a day where somehow I’d claimed for 4 cancelled journeys instead of 1 - where they paid out. Refunding those. All closed.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you All for your input and guidance; all remedied with WMT today. There was a day where somehow I’d claimed for 4 cancelled journeys instead of 1 - where they paid out. Refunding those. All closed.

Thanks for letting us know - both because it brings you closure, and because it will help us to give good advice to anyone who asks us about something similar in future.

 

[MotCO]

Thank you All for your input and guidance; all remedied with WMT today. There was a day where somehow I’d claimed for 4 cancelled journeys instead of 1 - where they paid out. Refunding those. All closed.

Cancelled journeys or delayed journeys? You can't claim Delay Repay if your train was cancelled and you did not travel. If you were delayed because your train was cancelled, and you caught a later one, that is legit.

 

[akm]

Sometimes, on really bad days, SWR twitter says that season ticket holders can claim delay repay. I'm sure they're not the only TOC to do so.

edit the last time it was relevant to me was ages ago so I don't know for sure that they still do this...