Fraud

[George53]

Hi ,

I received a letter from East Midlands Railway as I committed a fraud due to a high number of Delay Repays for a period of 16 Months.
I have an annual season ticket and did over 400 claims during the 16 months period due to delayed or cancelled trains (or strikes) all claims has been done through the EMR dedicated website accordingly to their policy. No claims ever has been duplicated. All claims has been approved by them and paid.
What did I do wrong?
They threatening me with Magistrates Court.
Ps. They have not provided any evidence just demanded a £4K repayment within 21days.
I requested evidence because I am not aware of any fraud here.
Service extremely poor..no weeks are passing without issues.
Please advise if you can ...

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

It would be easier for the advisers here if you could post up the letter you have received. Please cover up your name, address and any reference numbers.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi ,

I received a letter from East Midlands Railway as I committed a fraud due to a high number of Delay Repays for a period of 16 Months.
I have an annual season ticket and did over 400 claims during the 16 months period due to delayed or cancelled trains (or strikes) all claims has been done through the EMR dedicated website accordingly to their policy. No claims ever has been duplicated. All claims has been approved by them and paid.
What did I do wrong?
They threatening me with Magistrates Court.
Ps. They have not provided any evidence just demanded a £4K repayment within 21days.
I requested evidence because I am not aware of any fraud here.
Service extremely poor..no weeks are passing without issues.
Please advise if you can ...

So, just to be clear, you suffered 400 delays in about 500 days with no duplicate claims, yes?

Is £4,000 the amount you claimed? What ticket did you hold, between which stations?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

What type of season ticket was it? Ie paper or eticket?

 

[SteveM70]

Service extremely poor..no weeks are passing without issues

But you’ve made 400 claims in 16 months? Allowing for weekends, holidays etc that’s one every day.

What exactly have you been claiming for?

 

[30907]

As AlterEgo has just said, 400 claims in a 16 month period (typically 300 working days/600 single journeys) is an enormous number.

I am not surprised that their software has identified your claims as suspicious. It will also look suspicious if you travelled at seemingly random times (you may have a perfectly good explanation). Delay repay fraud is a known phenomenon.

You haven't actually stated that you were delayed for 15+ minutes on 2 out of every 3 journeys that you actually undertook, but if you can present your own records you will be in a good position to prove them wrong.

 

[George53]

What type of season ticket was it? Ie paper or eticket?

Smart card / on my name

 

[furlong]

So consider the most recent 3 claims you made which they approved and paid out. Perhaps you could give us some details to help us to understand them? Which train were you planning to catch (day/time/origin/destination)? What time did you actually arrive at your origin station to get onto a train? What time did you touch the smartcard at the start of the journey? What time did you actually reach your destination station? What time did you touch the smartcard at the end of the journey? How much did they pay you in compensation?

 

[George53]

So, just to be clear, you suffered 400 delays in about 500 days with no duplicate claims, yes?

Is £4,000 the amount you claimed? What ticket did you hold, between which stations?

Hi , ticket is between Wellingborough and London / annual season ticket (which should allow me for unlimited travel 7 days a week between first and last departure...it cost over £8K there are some days when I made multiple claims because of multiple train cancellations..or delays during my journeys or attempted journeys...

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi , ticket is between Wellingborough and London / annual season ticket (which should allow me for unlimited travel 7 days a week between first and last departure...it cost over £8K there are some days when I made multiple claims

Instruct a solicitor immediately.

 

[George53]

So consider the most recent 3 claims you made which they approved and paid out. Perhaps you could give us some details to help us to understand them? Which train were you planning to catch (day/time/origin/destination)? What time did you actually arrive at your origin station to get onto a train? What time did you touch the smartcard at the start of the journey? What time did you actually reach your destination station? What time did you touch the smartcard at the end of the journey? How much did they pay you in compensation?

Hi,
My station just recently gone live with the gates earlier this year.. sometimes I arrived to the station waiting for the train..then they cancelled it...so waited for second on ...they cancelled again as a good example...then I decided to walk home (10min on foot) then 1h later back to station.. taking train...and guess what..train delayed 15+min.... So on that day I claimed for X2 cancellation+X1 15+ min delay as an example...or one more claim on my way back if they cancelled or delayed...

 

[SteveM70]

Hi,
My station just recently gone live with the gates earlier this year.. sometimes I arrived to the station waiting for the train..then they cancelled it...so waited for second on ...they cancelled again as a good example...then I decided to walk home (10min on foot) then 1h later back to station.. taking train...and guess what..train delayed 15+min.... So on that day I claimed for X2 cancellation+X1 15+ min delay as an example...or one more claim on my way back if they cancelled or delayed...

That isn’t how it works. You made one journey and three claims?!?

You possibly need legal advice at this stage

 

[George53]

That isn’t how it works. You made one journey and three claims?!?

You possibly need legal advice at this stage

Sorry but I'm not getting it....I tried to make a journey but no trains was available due to cancellations...so I cannot claim then? am I limited to 1 claim per day? What if wanted to do 4 journeys...but due to cancellations I couldn't... because the train company was unable to provide the service..what I already paid for ahead..

Hi.

It would be easier for the advisers here if you could post up the letter you have received. Please cover up your name, address and any reference numbers.

 

[furlong]

I appreciate it is not documented particularly well, but Delay Repay is paid only for journeys that are actually made. One journey to London = one claim. One journey home from London = one claim.

If a train is cancelled because of a strike and you don't make the journey then they let you make a delay repay claim for that if you select 'strike action' on the form.

So I think the first thing is to reevaluate all the claims you made against the correct criteria and classify them as definitely valid, definitely invalid or unsure.
Then work out how close the amount they are asking for is to your new estimate of how much you over-claimed.

If the difference is small, just pay it.

If the difference is significant, enter negotiations to try to reach an agreement with them.

They'll certainly have recourse to claim this money back through the civil courts, though your assertion that they should have spotted it earlier might (or might not) help to reduce the amount awarded against you.
Using the criminal courts would be harder for them and may depend on being able to point to some statement you agreed to during the claim process that was untrue, so you might want to review everything it says as you use that process.

 

[Haywain]

Hi,
My station just recently gone live with the gates earlier this year.. sometimes I arrived to the station waiting for the train..then they cancelled it...so waited for second on ...they cancelled again as a good example...then I decided to walk home (10min on foot) then 1h later back to station.. taking train...and guess what..train delayed 15+min.... So on that day I claimed for X2 cancellation+X1 15+ min delay as an example...or one more claim on my way back if they cancelled or delayed...

This sounds like you have serially defrauded the railway and I concur with the advice that you should consult a solicitor. It is rare that we advise this so you should take it seriously.

 

[gingerheid]

If this is a case of remarkable mistunderstanding rather than fraud then a solicitor will, despite the unfortunate cost, be best positioned to be able to help you articulate this.

 

[furlong]

Sorry but I'm not getting it....I tried to make a journey but no trains was available due to cancellations...so I cannot claim then? am I limited to 1 claim per day? What if wanted to do 4 journeys...but due to cancellations I couldn't... because the train company was unable to provide the service..what I already paid for ahead..

If you actually travelled to and from London twice in the day, and all 4 journeys were delayed, then that would indeed be 4 claims (but they might apply a daily cap to the total claims).

It is not the number of claims per day that is capped. The limit is "one claim per journey actually made". Strikes are a special case where you use the 'strike action' field on the form to receive compensation that is technically not 'Delay Repay' but a special category of its own, but that'll be a tiny minority of your claims.

You haven't posted the actual letter (redacted) but from the similar cases we've seen on here, it is normally possible to resolve this type of case without needing to use a solicitor and without going to court, once you understand the rules and agree to pay back what you weren't entitled to claim. It is purely a contractual matter unless they can prove you deliberately made false statements to them.

 

[George53]

This sounds like you have serially defrauded the railway and I concur with the advice that you should consult a solicitor. It is rare that we advise this so you should take it serio

I appreciate it is not documented particularly well, but Delay Repay is paid only for journeys that are actually made. One journey to London = one claim. One journey home from London = one claim.

If a train is cancelled because of a strike and you don't make the journey then they let you make a delay repay claim for that if you select 'strike action' on the form.

So I think the first thing is to reevaluate all the claims you made against the correct criteria and classify them as definitely valid, definitely invalid or unsure.
Then work out how close the amount they are asking for is to your new estimate of how much you over-claimed.

If the difference is small, just pay it.

If the difference is significant, enter negotiations to try to reach an agreement with them.

They'll certainly have recourse to claim this money back through the civil courts, though your assertion that they should have spotted it earlier might (or might not) help to reduce the amount awarded against you.
Using the criminal courts would be harder for them and may depend on being able to point to some statement you agreed to during the claim process that was untrue, so you might want to review everything it says as you use that process.

Hi, sounds reasonable, but I do believe If I'm attempting to take a train..and the train is cancelled then I do have the right to claim... they even announce it through the tannoy system on the station as you are entitled to claim because of cancellations....so they even encourage me to claim...

 

[George53]

So, just to be clear, you suffered 400 delays in about 500 days with no duplicate claims, yes?

Is £4,000 the amount you claimed? What ticket did you hold, between which stations

Hi.

It would be easier for the advisers here if you could post up the letter you have received. Please cover up your name, address and any reference numbers.

Hi, please see attached

 

[JBuchananGB]

If you intended to travel on the 0930 train, arrived at the station at 0920, to discover that both the 0930 and the next one, say 1000 were cancelled, so you went home, had a cup of tea, came back and caught the 1030 service, which arrived at destination 15 minutes late, you would have one 75 minute claim. Not 2 claims for cancellation as one 15 minute delay. You seem to have abused the system, so probably do need legal advice.

 

[George53]

If you actually travelled to and from London twice in the day, and all 4 journeys were delayed, then that would indeed be 4 claims (but they might apply a daily cap to the total claims).

It is not the number of claims per day that is capped. The limit is "one claim per journey actually made". Strikes are a special case where you use the 'strike action' field on the form to receive compensation that is technically not 'Delay Repay' but a special category of its own, but that'll be a tiny minority of your claims.

You haven't posted the actual letter (redacted) but from the similar cases we've seen on here, it is normally possible to resolve this type of case without needing to use a solicitor and without going to court, once you understand the rules and agree to pay back what you weren't entitled to claim. It is purely a contractual matter unless they can prove you deliberately made false statements to them.

Hi, thanks for the advice much appreciated! I was always under the impression as I can claim when a train has been cancelled too... which means I couldn't even start my journey..and let's say they cancelled the train and then they cancelled the next one too...it's already X2 cancellation claim... with my understanding..

 

[George53]

If you intended to travel on the 0930 train, arrived at the station at 0920, to discover that both the 0930 and the next one, say 1000 were cancelled, so you went home, had a cup of tea, came back and caught the 1030 service, which arrived at destination 15 minutes late, you would have one 75 minute claim. Not 2 claims for cancellation as one 15 minute delay. You seem to have abused the system, so probably do need legal advice.

Hi, how would I know this? They should see this on their system and added up....they never explained this to me like you just did...for me on the station screen shows cancelled if it's cancelled (so that's why I claimed for cancelled) and when it's delayed...it shows delayed on the screen...or announced on the train....so I claimed delayed...I never mixed them or add them together...

Hi, thanks for the advice much appreciated! I was always under the impression as I can claim when a train has been cancelled too... which means I couldn't even start my journey..and let's say they cancelled the train and then they cancelled the next one too...it's already X2 cancellation claim... with my understanding..

Ps. I tried posting the original letter but for some reason not loading..

 

[furlong]

An annual season ticket is treated as equivalent to 232 days and EMR implies it won't pay more than 1/232 x annual season ticket cost in total for delays on any given day.

 

[George53]

Hi, how would I know this? They should see this on their system and added up....they never explained this to me like you just did...for me on the station screen shows cancelled if it's cancelled (so that's why I claimed for cancelled) and when it's delayed...it shows delayed on the screen...or announced on the train....so I claimed delayed...I never mixed them or add them together...


Ps. I tried posting the original letter but for some reason not loading..

You can see the letter now under my original post

An annual season ticket is treated as equivalent to 232 days and EMR implies it won't pay more than 1/232 x annual season ticket cost in total for delays on any given day.

So it's not valid for 7days a week 52 weeks?

You can see the letter now under my original post


So it's not valid for 7days a week 52 weeks?

Ps EMR provide an extremely poor service for the price currently over £8.5K I'm paying annually..

 

[furlong]

So it's not valid for 7days a week 52 weeks?

For the purposes of compensation, they assume you are only using it on 232 days of the year, not 365. This increases the amount of compensation available per day, as compared to dividing the figure by 365.

Yes, so the letter is what I was expecting. You need to work out for yourself how much is repayable now that you understand better how the system was supposed to work, compare it with the figure they are asking for, then decide whether you'll just pay it or else discuss individual claims with them and attempt to negotiate a lower settlement.

 

[George53]

For the purposes of compensation, they assume you are only using it on 232 days of the year, not 365. This increases the amount of compensation available per day, as compared to dividing the figure by 365.

Yes, so the letter is what I was expecting. You need to work out for yourself how much is repayable now that you understand better how the system was supposed to work, compare it with the figure they are asking for, then decide whether you'll just pay it or else discuss individual claims with them and attempt to negotiate a lower settlement.

Yes that's makes sense...but also not because they assuming...I was assuming also as a cancellation is cancellation and never added together with any delays what I suffered on the following train as an example..
Can you please send me a link to their latest claim rules if you have access?

For the purposes of compensation, they assume you are only using it on 232 days of the year, not 365. This increases the amount of compensation available per day, as compared to dividing the figure by 365.

Yes, so the letter is what I was expecting. You need to work out for yourself how much is repayable now that you understand better how the system was supposed to work, compare it with the figure they are asking for, then decide whether you'll just pay it or else discuss individual claims with them and attempt to negotiate a lower settlement.

Ps. It's going to take a while to work out .... backwards all those months...

 

[furlong]

We have seen cases before where the initial letter asks for ALL delay repay claims to be repaid, including ones that were in fact valid. So it is possible that if you do your own calculation it will be worth negotiating and the letter leaves this option open where it asks you for comments. (Be careful not to admit to fraud in any response.)

So which are your regular trains in each direction? I don't spot any regular services justifying this level of claims (the worst had 6 qualifying delays in the last 4 weeks). Have you been claiming for different services on different days?

 

[WesternLancer]

It seems to me you have completely misunderstood how delay repay works. That may be the railway’s fault rather than yours but they will want money back and this error must surely mean your claims are invalid. Sadly it probably also invalidates the correct payments you could have had.

I suspect it may also be tricky to persuade them that such a misunderstanding is genuine.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I can recall cases in the forum where season ticket holders were using real time train monitoring apps to find out which trains within the validity of their season tickets had been delayed, and submitting claims to have travelled on those trains. Recommendations to people with unusual travel patterns and genuine claims included taking photos of departure boards at the stations where they had been initially affected by the delayed or cancelled trains. Greater Anglia did an exercise in this area where people who worked in the city of London genuinely went to Liverpool Street, found their intended train was disrupted, repaired to a nearby hostelry for a couple of hours, caught a much later train, and submitted delay repay based on what they could have caught without the refreshments. I think they detected the anomaly through records of times when the season tickets were scanned. This was deemed abuse of the system. Like @WesternLancer I think @George53 will have an uphill struggle to present a credible explanation of his apparent misunderstanding of the process.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Yes that's makes sense...but also not because they assuming...I was assuming also as a cancellation is cancellation and never added together with any delays what I suffered on the following train as an example..
Can you please send me a link to their latest claim rules if you have access?


Ps. It's going to take a while to work out .... backwards all those months...

The clue is in the name “DELAY repay”, not “Cancellation Repay”. In the example earlier where you arrive at 0920 and eventually catch a train at 1030 you are delayed by just over an hour. If you decided to pop home, have a coffee, etc and come back for the 1030 you have still been delayed just the once. So one claim only.

On services where there is a 15 min frequency, would you really think that if there were four consecutive cancellations, say because of a signal failure, and you caught a train one hour after you intended to, that you would be entitled to claim four times? I suspect you will struggle to get the authorities to accept that it was a genuine misunderstanding.