Frustrated with RMT

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was politely probing what 185 meant by directors, as it was unclear. I think that excluding the Tories from blame is wrong.

DfT has several posts called Director General, others called Managing Director, and all I believe are civil servants (some possibly hired in from consultancies).
There are also non-executive directors on the DfT Board.
The unions' bête noire is Peter Wilkinson, Managing Director of Passenger Services in the Rail Group.
There are probably others in the coconut shy in the DfT organisation chart below, notably those in "Rail Workforce Transformation".

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1120469/DfT_org_chart_Nov22.pdf

 

[mac]

Where I am 6 out of 13 signallers work though the last strike days so going to be interesting to see how many work next week

 

[Yew]

It’s a shame the Government and the RDG are pulling the strings. I feel that if the RMT was allowed to negotiate directly with the TOCs a lot of this could be over now. As I tell people,I’m not striking against my TOC,I’ve no beef with them and it’s a shame they are suffering too. I’m striking against the RDG and the government who wish to interfere with my terms and conditions and threaten me with DOO.
The RDG want one thing for everyone and it won’t work as each company has its own foibles that may not work elsewhere. Until the TOCs are fully nationalised the RDGs one size fits all package will not work.

It's also worth remembering that the RMT would be happy to do a "Fares Strike" - and it is the government who has made those illegal.

 

[XIX7007177]

DfT has several posts called Director General, others called Managing Director, and all I believe are civil servants (some possibly hired in from consultancies).
There are also non-executive directors on the DfT Board.
The unions' bête noire is Peter Wilkinson, Managing Director of Passenger Services in the Rail Group.
There are probably others in the coconut shy in the DfT organisation chart below, notably those in "Rail Workforce Transformation".

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1120469/DfT_org_chart_Nov22.pdf

Could probably get rid of 50% of that lot and notice no difference. Probably improve efficiency.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It's also worth remembering that the RMT would be happy to do a "Fares Strike" - and it is the government who has made those illegal.

Considering most ticket office staff are TSSA and many gateline staff are agency I’m not quite sure how much of an impact this would have anyway.

 

[Stuart-h]

While i under stand why network rail have gone on strike from my point of view its a bit of a bummer as im a contractor i dont get payed if im not in work,

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm getting really disillusioned with RMT regarding this strike. By doing joint negotiations with Maintenance staff of which there are more than Signallers it means signallers can be constantly outvoted even though practically every one I've spoken to wants to accept the latest pay deal. I feel Mick Lynch has done this deliberately to prolong the strike and is using signallers as his attack dogs as we have the most immediate effect when it comes to industrial action. It also means that maintenance staff can outvote us when they just want a pay deal and we're fighting for our terms and conditions. I don't mind fighting for signallers but I don't see why I should do it for other sections of the company. We haven't been asked if we want it this way, the RMT is looking like anything but a democratic union at the moment. What do others think?

This has been the RMTs strategy in this dispute from day 1, as they know having signallers on strike is far more disruptive to the network than if just maintenance were striking, or just station staff, etc. I’m afraid the signallers are being ‘used‘ in this respect. Some understood this from the start last spring (and some of them were willing to go along with it), but some didn’t of course.

Some ‘elements’ of the RMT will no doubt want to keep the signallers out as long as possible as that also helps with the TOC dispute. If the signallers come back, the number of trains run each day will easily double.

No-one in their right mind would accept the derisory 4% plus next year 4% with additional conditions of mass redundancy attached.

What were those conditions of mass redundancy?

Isn’t this how collective bargaining works though!!

It is, but then collective bargaining can be applied at various levels. The RMT could have gone into dispute about the changes in Maintenance by balloting maintenance staff only, and then had a separate dispute about pay. But they chose to bring it all together, as without the signallers, the maintenance dispute would not have had as much effect.

For example, the dispute at Thames Valley Signalling Centre only involved signallers there and not anywhere else (or any other staff groups), and only they were ballotted. Although they’ve seen sense now and the dispute is over.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

It is all purely politically motivated by Lynch and his fellow travellers to keep pressure on the government.

 

[zwk500]

It is all purely politically motivated by Lynch and his fellow travellers to keep pressure on the government.

That's rather ignoring the large rile the government have had kn provoking and then extending the strikes

 

[MK88]

I think I’d rather it continue until they give up rather than see them basically rewarded for the chaos they’ve ensued. Sorry, but that’s how I feel - “Well done for bringing the railway to its knees for a year, here’s an extra X%” doesn’t sit right with me. Same goes for ASLEF.

The purpose of striking is to cause chaos. No point in striking if its not creating adverse conditions.

 

[philosopher]

The purpose of striking is to cause chaos. No point in striking if its not creating adverse conditions.

If the chaos caused puts off passengers permanently from using the railways it will backfire on the unions. The government is not going to keep spending large amounts of money on a public service that is being used less and less.

 

[A0wen]

It’s a shame the Government and the RDG are pulling the strings. I feel that if the RMT was allowed to negotiate directly with the TOCs a lot of this could be over now. As I tell people,I’m not striking against my TOC,I’ve no beef with them and it’s a shame they are suffering too. I’m striking against the RDG and the government who wish to interfere with my terms and conditions and threaten me with DOO.
The RDG want one thing for everyone and it won’t work as each company has its own foibles that may not work elsewhere. Until the TOCs are fully nationalised the RDGs one size fits all package will not work.

I thought the RMT staff were the signallers and maintenance workers who aren't employed by the TOCs, unlike the ASLEF disputes where they are representing drivers who are employed by TOCs?

 

[800 Driver]

If the chaos caused puts off passengers permanently from using the railways it will backfire on the unions. The government is not going to keep spending large amounts of money on a public service that is being used less and less.

It won't put people off permanently travelling. Once the dispute is settled passengers will return. We have a climate crisis and rail offers a huge solution to the challenges faced.

 

[Harold Hill]

It is all purely politically motivated by Lynch and his fellow travellers to keep pressure on the government.

Spot-on!

 

[MK88]

If the chaos caused puts off passengers permanently from using the railways it will backfire on the unions. The government is not going to keep spending large amounts of money on a public service that is being used less and less.

If the chaos caused puts off passengers permanently from using the railways it will backfire on the unions. The government is not going to keep spending large amounts of money on a public service that is being used less and less.

You mean the same tory government that keeps reducing investments and increases in selling sectors out to other countries? Ah yes...

 

[newtownmgr]

I'm a Guard. Do I want the best deal for myself? Absolutely? Do I also want the best for the other grades? Of course. This is what being in a union kinda is, isn't it? We stand as a collective for the overall benefit of all.

Spot on

 

[DailyCommuter]

It won't put people off permanently travelling. Once the dispute is settled passengers will return. We have a climate crisis and rail offers a huge solution to the challenges faced.

For leisure I'm sure passengers will return, but for the more profitable business travel the strikes and general railway unreliability at the moment is helping to further ingrain digital / remote ways of working in my experience.

In our business, aside from the commute to office, travel to project / supplier meetings generated some train travel previously. These have switched to Teams calls, some permanently so. So I expect we'll end up with a high mix of Teams meetings and fewer in person meetings even once the strikes end. That's even greener and cheaper for businesses.

If nothing else there is lost income from these strike days. Unless railway subsidy is going to increase to fund this income shortfall, won't this require further savings to be found in this financial year?

 

[WizCastro197]

It won't put people off permanently travelling. Once the dispute is settled passengers will return. We have a climate crisis and rail offers a huge solution to the challenges faced.

I am not so sure the industrial disputes are the only thing putting passengers off, look at Avanti, TPE among others. Frequent cancellations and high unreliability and people are paying thousands of pounds a year for these services. The railway itself doesn't make itself look very attractive, but some people have no choice but to take the train.

 

[superkopite]

It won't put people off permanently travelling. Once the dispute is settled passengers will return. We have a climate crisis and rail offers a huge solution to the challenges faced.

This type of think is hugely detrimental to the industry, yet I see it every week. Treat the paying passengers like garbage, they will be back to buy another ticket next week. Many other industries have thought along the same lines and many have fallen.

 

[800 Driver]

This type of think is hugely detrimental to the industry, yet I see it every week. Treat the paying passengers like garbage, they will be back to buy another ticket next week. Many other industries have thought along the same lines and many have fallen.

Rail has a monopoly. Want to get to Bristol from London in an hour and a half then there is only one choice. Glasgow to Edinburgh in under an hour? Birmingham to Manchester without queuing on the M6?

 

[LAX54]

Where I am 6 out of 13 signallers work though the last strike days so going to be interesting to see how many work next week

Its shaping up to be a rerun of 89/90 and we know what a disaster that was ! Think there is no compulsary redundancies until 2025, if needed, and there is a bit of a freeze on Ops vacancies that are open to Pway to apply for if they want, however daytime maintainance is almost impossible now with no red zone working at all, so it does have to move more to nights and weekends or reduce the service level off peak, so that they can get access.
Daytime Line Block incidents seem to have risen a great deal over the past few years, a result of more blocks, and a vastly bigger area for Signallers to cover on work stations ??

 

[800 Driver]

For leisure I'm sure passengers will return, but for the more profitable business travel the strikes and general railway unreliability at the moment is helping to further ingrain digital / remote ways of working in my experience.

In our business, aside from the commute to office, travel to project / supplier meetings generated some train travel previously. These have switched to Teams calls, some permanently so. So I expect we'll end up with a high mix of Teams meetings and fewer in person meetings even once the strikes end. That's even greener and cheaper for businesses.

If nothing else there is lost income from these strike days. Unless railway subsidy is going to increase to fund this income shortfall, won't this require further savings to be found in this financial year?

And this is a Govt / management failure. Change the ticket structure so that you make money from the passengers that are travelling. Rather than relying on business and 5 day a week commuter traffic that is in free fall.

 

[Snow1964]

Rail has a monopoly. Want to get to Bristol from London in an hour and a half then there is only one choice. Glasgow to Edinburgh in under an hour? Birmingham to Manchester without queuing on the M6?

More incorrect thinking, rail only has local monopolies, doesn’t apply to the whole network.
The examples quoted assume people want fast journeys between the pairs, a market shrinking because of online meetings. Most leisure journeys are not so time critical, value and reliability are the keys for these.

This type of think is hugely detrimental to the industry, yet I see it every week. Treat the paying passengers like garbage, they will be back to buy another ticket next week. Many other industries have thought along the same lines and many have fallen.

I think I have seen this described in a textbook as Woolworths thinking, just assume customers will keep coming back, however rubbish the product and experience becomes.

We all know what happened to Woolworths.

 

[DailyCommuter]

Rail has a monopoly. Want to get to Bristol from London in an hour and a half then there is only one choice. Glasgow to Edinburgh in under an hour? Birmingham to Manchester without queuing on the M6?

For our business travel the competition is Teams not another mode of transport.

 

[class68fan]

Where I am 6 out of 13 signallers work though the last strike days so going to be interesting to see how many work next week

hope they dont expect support from their union if they need it.

 

[nedchester]

I am not so sure the industrial disputes are the only thing putting passengers off, look at Avanti, TPE among others. Frequent cancellations and high unreliability and people are paying thousands of pounds a year for these services. The railway itself doesn't make itself look very attractive, but some people have no choice but to take the train.

I think much of that unreliability can be tied to issues that has led to the dispute whether it be RDW ban by drivers or the companies not employing enough staff to cover the timetable or Sundays inside (for example).

The whole structure of the railway needs sorting and maybe this watershed moment needs to happen before the industry can move forward.

 

[800 Driver]

More incorrect thinking, rail only has local monopolies, doesn’t apply to the whole network.
The examples quoted assume people want fast journeys between the pairs, a market shrinking because of online meetings. Most leisure journeys are not so time critical, value and reliability are the keys for these.


I think I have seen this described in a textbook as Woolworths thinking, just assume customers will keep coming back, however rubbish the product and experience becomes.

We all know what happened to Woolworths.

I guarantee you the railways will not go the way of Woolworths within the next 100 years. And whilst the service is terrible at the moment, once the dispute is resolved passengers will continue to return.

 

[nedchester]

hope they dont expect support from their union if they need it.

I would hope they would leave the RMT?

That said I do understand the pressures of finance especially at this time of year. Who are you loyal to? The union or your family?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

And this is a Govt / management failure. Change the ticket structure so that you make money from the passengers that are travelling. Rather than relying on business and 5 day a week commuter traffic that is in free fall.

Ticketing is a strange one, the current DfT framework for fares reform include:

• no passengers must by worse off and end up paying more
• the income to treasury through the fare box must not be reduced

That makes serious reform very challenging.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Rather than relying on business and 5 day a week commuter traffic that is in free fall.

Its not in freefall anymore its just that its recovery rate, especially season ticket income, is behind leisure and was an easy source of certain income pre covid although was already showing signs of changes in working practices. What seems for sure is this level of season ticket revenue is never going to be achieved so operators that were highly dependant on it ie LSE need to adapt to that loss and in many cases have but NR hasn't. Its income is largely fixed under the CP6 settlement and was based on considerably more train tonne miles being run than is the case now. That may get remedied in CP7 but it doesn't help the industry to now and leaves the TOCs in the firing line. DfT should have called for a reopener on CP6 but more simply just tell NR they need to contribute to the savings pot in operating costs.