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Frustrated with RMT

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jayah

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It isn’t fantasy but would take time to implement. Savings could be made from elsewhere by closing some ticket offices, introducing DOO, having more flexible working and reducing competing management structures (there needs an acceptance that the franchise / concession system has failed)
Where is the consensus franchises have failed? Even the unions realise the former were very successful in increasing pay, although they don't say this out loud. Concessions vs Central Planning - I think the latter has failed not the former.

I am not sure why the savings from closing ticket offices have to be wasted subsidising other waste like part time hours for full time pay? My biggest issue isn't the salaries but the fact they aren't full time and do not require 7 day working.
 
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Yew

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I bet they would if it means less work for the same pay, give or take a bit of lost commission.
I imagine they would. But I did not make any firm comments on the exact pay arrangements - it would depend on what was agreed between the TOC and the Union.
I wouldn't pay someone to work on a checkout unless they were going to use the till and collect the money. If they want to take industrial action over the use of the till, they can stay at home and get zero pay.
Are there any shops that have monopolies in an area, and are faced with large fines for not being open?

Nobody would tolerate them coming, getting paid, but not taking the money.
That would depend on the agreement between the Union and Employer - it may be better than facing the fines for not running services.

Equally the idea Guards will come in, work trains, not collect fares, but not get paid for the entire shift is equally absurd.
And yet in 1970, striking postal workers in the US agreed to deliver social security checks during a Mail strike. The right wing tabloids are foaming at the mouth with sensational headlines about rail workers "Holding the country to ransom" - an argument which would be largely mitigated if it was instead a fares strike.
 

nedchester

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Where is the consensus franchises have failed? Even the unions realise the former were very successful in increasing pay, although they don't say this out loud. Concessions vs Central Planning - I think the latter has failed not the former.

I am not sure why the savings from closing ticket offices have to be wasted subsidising other waste like part time hours for full time pay? My biggest issue isn't the salaries but the fact they aren't full time and do not require 7 day working.
Oh there’s no doubt that the franchise have increased pay massively and whilst the increase in pay compared to BR was needed but whether to the extent it has is debatable!

Planning is a nightmare between operators all fighting for their corner to save a few minutes here and there rather than for the greater good of the railway. The number of arguments from one operator because their service is delayed for a couple of minutes to allow another operators services to run more effectively is maddening.

The idea behind GBR was for them to plan the timetable which actually was a good idea but the devil was always going to be in the implementation. And then there’s the number of management structures for each organisation and delay attribution etc.
 

Yew

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Where is the consensus franchises have failed? Even the unions realise the former were very successful in increasing pay, although they don't say this out loud. Concessions vs Central Planning - I think the latter has failed not the former.
Well the government has decided to turn the franchises into management contracts.
My biggest issue isn't the salaries but the fact they aren't full time and do not require 7 day working.
The railway chose to give out contracts with those terms and conditions. Though I'm perplexed by your asertion that these are not "full time" most contracts seem to be in the range of 35-40 hours.
 

superkopite

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Would a fare strike not cause the opposite form of chaos? Dangerously overcrowded services, irate season ticket holders etc. The last thing the industry should be doing is encouraging the public to travel ticketless.
 

Sly Old Fox

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Where is the consensus franchises have failed? Even the unions realise the former were very successful in increasing pay, although they don't say this out loud. Concessions vs Central Planning - I think the latter has failed not the former.

I am not sure why the savings from closing ticket offices have to be wasted subsidising other waste like part time hours for full time pay? My biggest issue isn't the salaries but the fact they aren't full time and do not require 7 day working.

Obviously they are full time. Plenty of TOCs have Sunday working properly included, Southeastern and South Western Railway for two. They aren’t short of drivers on Sundays because it’s just a normal day. That should be the focus industry wide. I just don’t think anybody wants to pay for it.
 

Facing Back

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That would depend on the agreement between the Union and Employer - it may be better than facing the fines for not running services.
I see the point you are making but it is a terrible precedent for the TOCs to allow. It might be cheaper to accept the loss of revenue vs the fines but "better". I would expect is to have a terribly negative impact on the TOC's negotiating position so I would be surprised if they entertained it.

If a person employed to collect revenue refuses to collect revenue - they either it is part of a recognised industrial dispute and they should not be at work or they are in breach of their terms of employment and subject to sanctions
 

baz962

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I thought the RMT staff were the signallers and maintenance workers who aren't employed by the TOCs, unlike the ASLEF disputes where they are representing drivers who are employed by TOCs?
RMT represent guards and platform staff, ticket office staff .
 

CFRAIL

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But surely if you want no strike agreement, then workers should be reasonably compensated given inflation etc...







The point about unpaid breaks means I can leave my workplace to take my break, that simply isn't practical on the railway. This worked in my previous work, but wouldn't work on the railway.
 

gazzaa2

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Whilst I don't completely disagree, you can equally make the point the other way round. Reading the rhetoric is appears that Mick Lynch (or the NEC) is equally uninterested on the resolving the dispute - unless it results in a resounding victory for "their" side of course.

I meant personal on both sides. The government could easily resolve it though. If they wanted to they wouldn't have put all the added conditions in last minute that the union members would never accept. It's not like RMT are demanding inflationary pay rise, they'd accept the 4+4 it's all the other stuff on top that's the sticking point.
 

Robertj21a

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It is the industrial disputes that is causing the cancellations at Avanti & TPE.



Once for the funeral of the Queen, once 3 days later than could have been done, so that the maximum disruption still occurred, when was the third time?



This is not true. And neither does it mean widespread compulsory redundancies. The line of thought that changing the roles of those who work in ticket offices, or those who work as ‘guards’ is going to a) lead to widespread redundancies and b) happen overnight is an absolute fallacy.

Rather than striking, why don’t you encourage your reps to find out more about what is actually proposed?
Isn't this a big part of the problem ? - many rail staff keep suggesting that the RMT is fighting for something that isn't going to happen as they suggest.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Some are organised the right way. It is up to the individuals to choose if they wish to move to the new TS & Cs, no one is being forced to. Clearly, people who will be better off will do so.
Oh you wouldn't think so listening to Lynch although unless everyone is on the same T&Cs the ability to organise economic rosters will remain.
 

Sunset route

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As a long term NUR/RMT member and a local rep Opps side and with the news coming out from the top (and I have colleagues that have managed to get hold of a direct line to the top), I must say that there is hardly anything coming out of the negotiations for the signallers at the the moment and there are plenty of conditions attached that are bad for the signalling grade if the current pay deal goes through. I’d rather keep the current conditions and not have a pay rise.
 

RPI

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A fare strike is when they go to work, do the shift but don't collect any revenue from passengers.

The idea is they get paid, but the company gets less money.
A cynic would suggest that many have been doing this for years.
 

TPO

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For leisure I'm sure passengers will return, but for the more profitable business travel the strikes and general railway unreliability at the moment is helping to further ingrain digital / remote ways of working in my experience.

In our business, aside from the commute to office, travel to project / supplier meetings generated some train travel previously. These have switched to Teams calls, some permanently so. So I expect we'll end up with a high mix of Teams meetings and fewer in person meetings even once the strikes end. That's even greener and cheaper for businesses.

If nothing else there is lost income from these strike days. Unless railway subsidy is going to increase to fund this income shortfall, won't this require further savings to be found in this financial year?

I am not so sure the industrial disputes are the only thing putting passengers off, look at Avanti, TPE among others. Frequent cancellations and high unreliability and people are paying thousands of pounds a year for these services. The railway itself doesn't make itself look very attractive, but some people have no choice but to take the train.

For our business travel the competition is Teams not another mode of transport.

I think this is the key point being overlooked by RMT. Without COVID, or if COVID lockdowns had not lasted so long, the strikes would be having more impact. As it is however, Lynch seems to have made the same mistake as Scargill- not taken account of the context in the timing of the industrial action and allowing a political desire to "kick out the Tories" to become the dominant narritive.

I recall a senior rail person who once referred to a 1st class season ticket on the south-eastern/southern area TOCs as "the ultimate distress purchase" A very accurate phrase. However, the unthinkable happened and COVID plus a particular stage of IT infrastructure/software/hardware development came together, and remote working became common and embedded.

We've entirely stopped the monthly meetings we used to have in London that required me and my peers to travel there from all over the country, the vast majority doing so by rail, and that state of affairs is the same at all grades of the very large employer that I work for. It's all done via Teams now and won't revert except for once a year.

I suspect that's the same for most large nationwide companies.

As has been said rail has no form of monopoly for business travellers, and especially not against Zoom and Teams. Not to understand this is very naive.

A good friend has an IT business. He said a year ago that this is how it would go- as big companies had now invested so much into remote working infrastructure, there was no longer a way back to "before times."

And you know, I'm not sure the Westminster govt (i.e. the DfT) are so much gung-ho, as paralysed by indecision. They genuinely seem so out of touch that they have no idea what a post-COVID railway will need to deliver. So, rather than commit to a course of action, they sit on their hands and let things drift along- there's no real need to settle after all as it's not causing that much real pain to a large number of people (compared to the pain if the Grid falls over for example), HMT won't give hem the money anyway, and so they wait until they can see what the usage pattern things have settled into with the combination poor service and strikes before deciding about how much of a railway we really need. (The delay to the next HLOS determination tends to support that view IMO).

I don't think this is wholly party political BTW- both Sunak and Starmer are Blairites- rather it's also a reflection of a poor Senior Civil Service capability/competence aided and abetted by the massive hollowing out of the CS specialist grades that's happened over the last 20 years or so. The seeds of much of this were sown by Blair- to all intents and purposed we've had Blairite govt for over 20 years and the Blairite philosophy weaknesses and slight of hand (e.g. PFI spend in NHS) are starting to cripple core systems. There's no vision for the future any more (other than "magical thinking" towards the fairy-tale that is "net zero"), nor can I see any vision in the current Labour front bench unfortunately. Difficult to see how it gets better from here- in England anyway.

Still, some further-sighted (and non-Blairite) devolved areas are going things differently. In Wales, the policy is (I believe) to encourage home-based working (opposite to the Westminster attempts to get people back into offices) because this allows people to remain living in their community but get a decent job. It also reduced the amount of infrastructure spend the govt is required to do for coping with commuting crowds (retaining peak capacity for commuters has always been a costly part of public transport systems). This was all helped of course by the previous big push on roll-out of fibre broadband in Wales (stringing the fibre from the electricity poles in rural areas is much cheaper and very successful). The Welsh govt were laughed at when they pushed for this a few years back (as was a certain Mr. Corbyn when he suggested a "right to broadband" a few years ago), but time has shown they were on the ball. But then the Wales labour party has always been a different kind of Labour- i.e. actual Labour, not Blairite (I remember what happened when Blair tried to foist his candidate for First Minister on the first Assembly.... it didn't end well for Blair). Add in the better relations between the railway and TfW, and the TfW system being under less pressure, and although it's not perfect in Wales, it's a sight better than in England.

Interesting times [in the Chinese curse sense].

TPO
 

mac

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As a long term NUR/RMT member and a local rep Opps side and with the news coming out from the top (and I have colleagues that have managed to get hold of a direct line to the top), I must say that there is hardly anything coming out of the negotiations for the signallers at the the moment and there are plenty of conditions attached that are bad for the signalling grade if the current pay deal goes through. I’d rather keep the current conditions and not have a pay rise.
Perhaps the union could tell us signallers what conditions NR want to change so we can decide whether to strike on not
 

Exscrew

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As a long term NUR/RMT member and a local rep Opps side and with the news coming out from the top (and I have colleagues that have managed to get hold of a direct line to the top), I must say that there is hardly anything coming out of the negotiations for the signallers at the the moment and there are plenty of conditions attached that are bad for the signalling grade if the current pay deal goes through. I’d rather keep the current conditions and not have a pay rise.
Completely agree, stick the payrise and just leave us alone
 

jayah

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I imagine they would. But I did not make any firm comments on the exact pay arrangements - it would depend on what was agreed between the TOC and the Union.
The pay arrangements for a fare strike should be zero.

You do the work and get paid, or you don't.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Still, some further-sighted (and non-Blairite) devolved areas are going things differently. In Wales, the policy is (I believe) to encourage home-based working (opposite to the Westminster attempts to get people back into offices) because this allows people to remain living in their community but get a decent job. It also reduced the amount of infrastructure spend the govt is required to do for coping with commuting crowds (retaining peak capacity for commuters has always been a costly part of public transport systems). This was all helped of course by the previous big push on roll-out of fibre broadband in Wales (stringing the fibre from the electricity poles in rural areas is much cheaper and very successful). The Welsh govt were laughed at when they pushed for this a few years back (as was a certain Mr. Corbyn when he suggested a "right to broadband" a few years ago), but time has shown they were on the ball. But then the Wales labour party has always been a different kind of Labour- i.e. actual Labour, not Blairite (I remember what happened when Blair tried to foist his candidate for First Minister on the first Assembly.... it didn't end well for Blair). Add in the better relations between the railway and TfW, and the TfW system being under less pressure, and although it's not perfect in Wales, it's a sight better than in England.
Except that Mr Drakeford says he is actively considering increasing income tax in Wales (which he has the powers to do) to pay for public services.
I don't know what will happen to rail in Wales, but they face the same pressures as in England, only more so (a mostly expensive low-productivity rural network).

I don't agree the current gov is "Blairite", or we'd still be in the EU and have competent ministers.
 

thedbdiboy

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As a rail traveller, I ask: what are the specific ‘terms, conditions and working practices’ that Network Rail and the Train Operating Companies are seeking to change?

1. All ticket offices to close. 2. All train guards removed.
The problem is that neither of these are true - or at least not the way they are being present. There are many ticket offices that are nowadays woefully underused where the staff presence would achieve more by being redeployed. There is no scenario which involves all or even most stations losing the ability to get a ticket with the assistance of a member of staff. However, over time there does need to be some quite major changes in the way that roles are used, with the traditional 'Booking Clerk' (which is how my career started, back before there was any other way at all to buy a ticket) not likely to be one of them in many cases.
Similarly, the second person on a train to assist customers is not only desirable but for longer distance services is always going to be there. But that subtlety doesn't make good copy, much better to scream that 'all guards will be removed'.
In both cases, the only credible way forward is to negotiate a deal that ensures that 'good' jobs are created in the new railway - i.e. decently paid and useful as well as being rewarding for the staff; as well as adequate protection for those staff in current roles so that they can have certainty about what will happen and what their options are. No compulsory redundancies is an example of this as redeployment and natural wastage can do much of the heavy lifting.
I hold no truck for the current Government but I also despair at the so-called 'red lines' being claimed in this dispute which remind me of print unions and miners fighting to the death over jobs that we can see now simply do not exist in the same way. The railway is operationally a complete disaster right now and like it or not, destruction of value and of ridership will not ultimately hurt the wealthy or 'elites' - they will hurt both employees and a lot of ordinary people trying to make a living who are just collateral damage in the dispute.
So getting to a deal is essential, all round, and soon!
 

jayah

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Well the government has decided to turn the franchises into management contracts.

The railway chose to give out contracts with those terms and conditions. Though I'm perplexed by your asertion that these are not "full time" most contracts seem to be in the range of 35-40 hours.
The railway is no longer paid for by the people that agreed those contracts.

Almost everywhere traincrew have a 35hr working week, not 40hrs. Where the breaks are paid, this effectively reduces this further as most jobs are 37-40 with breaks unpaid.

Whoever agreed them, 32-33hrs actual duty is not full time and it is wrong to compare the salaries with roles that are.
 

Gorlash1886

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What truly amuses more than anything else is the IT lot on here that complain about how things are done, all the time writing programs to automate their own job surely they must know they are automating themselves out?

The railway is no longer paid for by the people that agreed those contracts.







Almost everywhere traincrew have a 35hr working week, not 40hrs. Where the breaks are paid, this effectively reduces this further as most jobs are 37-40 with breaks unpaid.







Whoever agreed them, 32-33hrs actual duty is not full time and it is wrong to compare the salaries with roles that are.



You are a massive troll who only comes out of the woodwork for these discussions. Remind me what's your form of employment which you have never disclosed.
 

jayah

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What truly amuses more than anything else is the IT lot on here that complain about how things are done, all the time writing programs to automate their own job surely they must know they are automating themselves out?
It is a very luddite attitude to be afraid of progress.

Signallers are far better paid as a result of the productivity that came from removing manually worked boxes, yet today the RMT opposes progress, technology, productivity and everything that goes with it.
 

CFRAIL

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JAYAH; You quote the 35h week, but you're forgetting that is an average. I can work some weeks of less than 30 hours, alternatively I can (and do) work weeks in excess of 45 hours and then my Sunday on top of that!
 

Scott1

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It is a very luddite attitude to be afraid of progress.

Signallers are far better paid as a result of the productivity that came from removing manually worked boxes, yet today the RMT opposes progress, technology, productivity and everything that goes with it.
Not sure where you've got it from that the RMT are Luddaites. There's tons of technology, older and brand new, used everyday on the railway. In the last couple of years I've been involved in several trials and roll outs of new kit. Don't belive everything you read in the paper, it's often taken out of context.
 

Gorlash1886

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He is also overlooking the fact that any break you have is the bare minimum that can be allowed.
 

jayah

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JAYAH; You quote the 35h week, but you're forgetting that is an average. I can work some weeks of less than 30 hours, alternatively I can (and do) work weeks in excess of 45 hours and then my Sunday on top of that!
It matters not, the average is 35hrs. That tips into paid overtime very quickly which is why the overtime ban is having such an impact.

I seem to recall the idea of shifts not being exactly 8hrs was also a red line back in the day?

If you have Sundays outside the working week, then the Sunday is paid extra, on top of the quoted base salary.

Not sure where you've got it from that the RMT are Luddaites. There's tons of technology, older and brand new, used everyday on the railway. In the last couple of years I've been involved in several trials and roll outs of new kit. Don't belive everything you read in the paper, it's often taken out of context.
The attitude in the post I was replying to suggests the poster thinks automation is purely negative, destroying headcount. In fact it pays for professional salaries like those in computer controlled signalling centres.

Had those attitudes prevailed the manual boxes would not have been replaced. BR didn't have no compulsory redundancy agreements and it is not a demand that should be indulged.
 

Scott1

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It matters not, the average is 35hrs. That tips into paid overtime very quickly which is why the overtime ban is having such an impact.

I seem to recall the idea of shifts not being exactly 8hrs was also a red line back in the day?

If you have Sundays outside the working week, then the Sunday is paid extra, on top of the quoted base salary.
Not at my TOC, the advertised salery is based on you working 1 in 3 'committed' Sundays. This makes your hours 38.5 if you split the Sunday between 3 weeks. Not much of a step down from your desired 40 hour week, and most people I work with want the Sunday inside the week, as it makes it easier to book holidays etc.
 

jayah

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Not sure where you've got it from that the RMT are Luddaites. There's tons of technology, older and brand new, used everyday on the railway. In the last couple of years I've been involved in several trials and roll outs of new kit. Don't belive everything you read in the paper, it's often taken out of context.
In July Network Rail published the Nichols Report detailing how they are behind comparable industries in adopting technology and detailing 16 changes backed up in a quagmire of endless consultation - in some cases nearly 3yrs.

Network Rail

Not at my TOC, the advertised salery is based on you working 1 in 3 'committed' Sundays. This makes your hours 38.5 if you split the Sunday between 3 weeks. Not much of a step down from your desired 40 hour week, and most people I work with want the Sunday inside the week, as it makes it easier to book holidays etc.
An excellent arrangement which boosts productivity and earnings unless you manage to give them away. Also allows the company concerned to offer a reliable Sunday service. Sadly too much the exception not the rule.
 
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