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Frustrated with RMT

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nedchester

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The problem is that neither of these are true - or at least not the way they are being present. There are many ticket offices that are nowadays woefully underused where the staff presence would achieve more by being redeployed. There is no scenario which involves all or even most stations losing the ability to get a ticket with the assistance of a member of staff. However, over time there does need to be some quite major changes in the way that roles are used, with the traditional 'Booking Clerk' (which is how my career started, back before there was any other way at all to buy a ticket) not likely to be one of them in many cases.
Similarly, the second person on a train to assist customers is not only desirable but for longer distance services is always going to be there. But that subtlety doesn't make good copy, much better to scream that 'all guards will be removed'.
In both cases, the only credible way forward is to negotiate a deal that ensures that 'good' jobs are created in the new railway - i.e. decently paid and useful as well as being rewarding for the staff; as well as adequate protection for those staff in current roles so that they can have certainty about what will happen and what their options are. No compulsory redundancies is an example of this as redeployment and natural wastage can do much of the heavy lifting.
I hold no truck for the current Government but I also despair at the so-called 'red lines' being claimed in this dispute which remind me of print unions and miners fighting to the death over jobs that we can see now simply do not exist in the same way. The railway is operationally a complete disaster right now and like it or not, destruction of value and of ridership will not ultimately hurt the wealthy or 'elites' - they will hurt both employees and a lot of ordinary people trying to make a living who are just collateral damage in the dispute.
So getting to a deal is essential, all round, and soon!
100% agree with this.

The railway needs to move with the times. In some cases it’ll mean more jobs and in other less.

It all needs sorting very soon otherwise we will see widespread cuts which will see all those that work in the industry poorer. There are parallels with the miners here and it has been known for some years that the Tories have wanted a battle to sort out the rail unions.

A few months ago I was sure the RMT would win this one but now I’m not so sure especially as the public may see “more deserving” groups….nurses and ambulance workers
 
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66701GBRF

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Whoever agreed them, 32-33hrs actual duty is not full time and it is wrong to compare the salaries with roles that are.
It is full time. My contract of employment states as much. The fact other jobs or industries command a longer working week does not change that.
 

Mag_seven

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A few months ago I was sure the RMT would win this one but now I’m not so sure especially as the public may see “more deserving” groups….nurses and ambulance workers

Whenever the strikes occur concurrently about 95% of the news coverage will be on the NHS strikes with the railway strikes hardly mentioned.
 

Facing Back

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What truly amuses more than anything else is the IT lot on here that complain about how things are done, all the time writing programs to automate their own job surely they must know they are automating themselves out?
You think the IT people write programmes to automate their own job?
 

185

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Re- "screaming"
However, over time there does need to be some quite major changes in the way that roles are used, with the traditional 'Booking Clerk' (which is how my career started, back before there was any other way at all to buy a ticket) not likely to be one of them in many cases.
Closing the ticket office no longer guarantees a person in the station.

Similarly, the second person on a train to assist customers is not only desirable but for longer distance services is always going to be there. But that subtlety doesn't make good copy, much better to scream that 'all guards will be removed'.
Removing the guard no longer guarantees a person in the train's passenger area.

---

Whilst this has been done to death, once again, removing those people opens the door (ah-ha!) to run the operation.... with nobody. Often No TI. No OBS. No wheelchair assists. No security. No station staff. Sorry granny, you're on your own.

- Real savings could be made on our railway, we don't really need Heads Of, Carbon Managers, Business Modelling Managers, tens of thousands on £80-450K.
- And contracted TOCs and leasing companies? That's technically benefit fraud on a grand scale. If it's not profitable & has to be subsidised, it shouldn't be in private hands.
 

modernrail

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Where is the consensus franchises have failed? Even the unions realise the former were very successful in increasing pay, although they don't say this out loud. Concessions vs Central Planning - I think the latter has failed not the former.

I am not sure why the savings from closing ticket offices have to be wasted subsidising other waste like part time hours for full time pay? My biggest issue isn't the salaries but the fact they aren't full time and do not require 7 day working.
Exactly. This is where the RMT has fallen down. It has lets some of it members enjoy pay rises driven by market forces whilst then causing strikes for those very same members and then other members who actually need the skills of a union of collective bargaining. Result - nobody is being served well by the RMT, it has just become a hotbed of political posturing.
 

Andy9gc

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If it helps stop the argument that 35 hours is not full time. In all statistics by the ONS and from government websites any job 30+ hours is full time.
 

Gorlash1886

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@Facing Back, by your statement you are happy for IT to attomate others jobs, are you sure someone in IT is not automating yours?

Automate* auto correct sorry
 

thedbdiboy

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Re- "screaming"

Closing the ticket office no longer guarantees a person in the station.


Removing the guard no longer guarantees a person in the train's passenger area.

---

Whilst this has been done to death, once again, removing those people opens the door (ah-ha!) to run the operation.... with nobody. Often No TI. No OBS. No wheelchair assists. No security. No station staff. Sorry granny, you're on your own.

- Real savings could be made on our railway, we don't really need Heads Of, Carbon Managers, Business Modelling Managers, tens of thousands on £80-450K.
- And contracted TOCs and leasing companies? That's technically benefit fraud on a grand scale. If it's not profitable & has to be subsidised, it shouldn't be in private hands.
None of these 'guarantee' a person anyway. There is nothing in statute requiring them, they are defended by existing agreements, so the key is to replace these with new agreements. The problem with fighting on both those grounds are that there are already plenty of stations without ticket offices and there are lots of DOO trains. It would seem much more realistic to push for an agreement on staffing levels overall than on old-style jobs.
If lines close and services are withdrawn there are no jobs for anyone.
And the myth that 'TOC profits' or 'management culls' would pay for it just that - if it were true it would be the easiest win in the world for the Government. Yes, there is a money-go-round that has lined certain companies rather too well but it is nowhere near even touching the sides of the funding gap the railways currently have. It really helps no-one to pretend that there is the money just sitting there to meet the union demands.
 

the sniper

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It is all purely politically motivated by Lynch and his fellow travellers to keep pressure on the government.

If it makes you feel better, feel free to believe it, though I think it's a naive take. The offer on the TOC side is blindingly obviously bad, acceptance of which can't even be considered selling out given how little money is being offered in return for the recipe for disater. It'd just be idiocy to accept it. I appreciate there's a lot of detail though around the NR deal that isn't readily available or readily interpretable to the public. Indeed at least one rail journalist on Twitter would have you believe the conditions attached were the acceptance milk and honey...

Given that they are all public sector employees paid for by the tax paying public I (and I am sure many others) feel equally ambivalent to them as I so to the RMT.

We really do need no strike contracts for anyone working in a public service, of course that should come with decent pay and conditions.

The police can't strike the armed forces can't why should teachers and hospital staff be different

Ah yes and they are suitable treated like crap due to that situation. IF ONLY everyone could be forced into the same position, it would surely warm even the coldest Tory hearts...

This is not true. And neither does it mean widespread compulsory redundancies. The line of thought that changing the roles of those who work in ticket offices, or those who work as ‘guards’ is going to a) lead to widespread redundancies and b) happen overnight is an absolute fallacy.

Oh, well, if nothing's happening overnight, sign me up for DOO... :rolleyes:
 
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Facing Back

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@Facing Back, by your statement you are happy for IT to attomate others jobs, are you sure someone in IT is not automating yours?

Automate* auto correct sorry
Well aggressive autocorrect is perhaps one area we can cut back the automation but i principle yes I have happy for IT to automate jobs. It has been doing so for decades and the recent developments in machine learning are opening up more complex functions to be partially automated.

I can talk a lot about this but its a rail forum so I won't. I will say if we can develop artificial intelligence to replace my job I will be delighted it has come on so far. I do however think strongly that society has a duty of care and if, for example, a ticket office clerk is displaced by a machine then training, career path development should be baked into the process. And that should apply to me to also when its my turn.
 

Annetts key

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I really wish the unions and employers would all grow up and talk about these issues before they become issues. Some years ago, I was a Unite union rep at a Government agency ('Quango' used to be the term). We worked with the management team to resolve potential disputes before they even surfaced. This was a mature way of working. No 'us and them'. Union members came from all levels - right up to Directors: we all worked for the same organisation and we collaborated to make that organisation a better and more effective place to work. I appreciate that this is different - we often joked about striking when our pay was held back by the Govt (which of course affected everyone, including the senior managers), but concluded the only people that would be inconvenienced (or would even notice) would be the very people we were working to support.
Talks started eleven months ago. The whole point of the bargaining agreements between the unions and the companies is to try to prevent a dispute getting to industrial action. However when the employer refuses to negotiate (due to interference from the government) it will become an us and them situation.

You would think so, but the people in charge of unions often seem to have their own agendas which are not always aligned with the views of ordinary members.
Do you have any evidence of this? May I remind you that industrial action can only be called if enough members vote, and there is a majority in favour of taking action. In all cases where industrial action is taking place, the requirements were met and in the vast majority of cases, exceeded by a considerable margin.

- plus union leaders and their staff are just doing their job - on full pay.
The representatives don’t get paid during strikes. Only the small number of the full time staff employed by the RMT get paid, as they would expect, being employees of the RMT. And Mick Lynch is not a ‘union leader’, but a General Secretary. He carries out the instructions of the National Executive Committee.

Yes - they want to use technology to monitor which is safer and more effective and they want to maintain only when the tracks are closed, which is safer.

The RMT are opposed to modernisation, productivity and even safety when it means more working at night and weekends.
Technology can’t do everything. Hence is not always safer. The best use of technology is to combine it with the skills of the employees.
Historically more accidents happen to employees within T3 engineering occupations than other methods of working. And line blocks are far from being completely safe.

The RMT are not opposed to the use of technology. And definitely not opposed to safer methods of working. But modernisation in the context of this dispute actually means less money being spent on the railways. And getting employees to do jobs that they are currently not trained or skilled to do. All while having worse terms and conditions and worse working practices.

Long term health effects of shift working, especially where sleep patterns are continuously disturbed are not fully understood. The likelihood is however that it will have effects on the employees health. Meanwhile, it completely screws up any chance of a normal social life or family life.

More and more employees are leaving the industry. Already Network Rail are having difficulty keeping the apprentices that they take on.

And as I’ve told you before, there have been numerous changes since BR. For Network Rail employees, the last one was in 2010.

Some are organised the right way. It is up to the individuals to choose if they wish to move to the new TS & Cs, no one is being forced to.
Could you please get Network Rail to remove the clause that enables them to give a minimum of 48 hours notice of a change to the start and/or finish time of a shift then? Also the other changes to T&Cs that they want. All of which currently don’t apply, but will under modernising maintenance.

Unsocial hours are already remunerated.
Yeah, some employees get a whopping 10% extra for nights or weekends. And under modernising maintenance, all new employees will get this.

Would you work nights and weekends for just 10% extra?

Rosters are already subject to negotiation as part of the existing structure.

35hr week needs to go.
As I’ve said before, not all staff are on 35 hour weeks. Some are on 40 hour weeks. Even BR was not on 40 weeks (most BR staff were on 39 hour weeks).

If you did increase the working week, employees would expect to get paid more. Which would cost the companies more money.

The whole reason that the companies have overtime working and Rest Day Working (RDW) is because it’s considerably cheaper.

Where Sundays are already part of the working week, the end result is often staff being asked to work overtime midweek. This despite it being the long term aim to reduce overtime and RDW since the Hidden report into the Clapham rail disaster.
 

fishwomp

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Actually, I do this constantly. In certain niche circumstances we're already at a level I can even ask AI to do it.
Alternatively, if IT people sit back and ignore the new technology, then other companies and countries will use the technology instead, and then it's no job any more.

Like investing in a factory to automate manufacturing, if you don't do it, cheaper labour - or automation in your competitors, will kill you.

Perhaps in the case of NR / RMT dispute,.and the multiskilling aspect of maintenance teams, RMT should be looking at how training can be increased to enable people to acquire skills (which increase an individual's value and prospects in the industry or elsewhere)? Change can be a good thing...
 

OuterDistant

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Actually, I do this constantly. In certain niche circumstances we're already at a level I can even ask AI to do it.
Likewise.

The other week, I told my new line manager that my approach to work is to aim to automate myself out of my job, given that even more work inevitably comes along for me as we look to outdo our competitors. It's a philosophy that's served me well for around 15 years.
 

Facing Back

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Actually, I do this constantly. In certain niche circumstances we're already at a level I can even ask AI to do it.
Fair point. If your job is to use IT rather the develop it then this is becoming increasingly true and much modern software is so complex and customisable that the skills required to configure it are a hair breadth from those required to develop it in the first back - but again this trend is decades old and there is a backlog of IT work a mile long.

Automated code developers are used entenively in things like the development of new silicon chips so the IT guys developed code which develops new code - would you like to guess how much these people get paid?

It will be interesting to see how machine learning affects this as the bulk of the work is mathematical rather than traditionally IT.

Like any other industry IT will have to evolve - and do so rapidly - to thrive and survive - in my opinion
 

Urobach

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A few months ago I was sure the RMT would win this one but now I’m not so sure especially as the public may see “more deserving” groups….nurses and ambulance workers
Public support won't have much bearing either way in my opinion, the only support a union needs is their members' and the government aren't facing a general election any time soon. It's a nice to have, but that's about it.

The "more deserving" groups are also being ignored, which probably says how much public opinion matters in these disputes.
 

Egg Centric

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Fair point. If your job is to use IT rather the develop it then this is becoming increasingly true and much modern software is so complex and customisable that the skills required to configure it are a hair breadth from those required to develop it in the first back - but again this trend is decades old and there is a backlog of IT work a mile long.

Automated code developers are used entenively in things like the development of new silicon chips so the IT guys developed code which develops new code - would you like to guess how much these people get paid?

It will be interesting to see how machine learning affects this as the bulk of the work is mathematical rather than traditionally IT.

Like any other industry IT will have to evolve - and do so rapidly - to thrive and survive - in my opinion

Development too, I assure you...
 

nedchester

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Public support won't have much bearing either way in my opinion, the only support a union needs is their members' and the government aren't facing a general election any time soon. It's a nice to have, but that's about it.

The "more deserving" groups are also being ignored, which probably says how much public opinion matters in these disputes.
Unless of course the Government start imposing T&Cs on the railways in a take it or leave scenario. Something they could do with rail workers as the dispute has been going on a long time.
This could happen if there are seen to be a breaking of ranks amongst some members as per the original post….
 

vicbury

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Despite some repetition from previous threads, there is lots of interesting debate here so I hope the moderators keep this thread open. A few thoughts from a regular passenger's perspective:
  • I've not used a train since November due to a combination of strikes and having COVID. I won't use the train again until at least the second week of January due to strikes. When the service is usable again, I'll commute one day a week, and won't be going to the office additionally to make up for days not in the office, therefore my potential revenue from December will never be realised.
  • The unreliable service on Sundays is a complete joke and needs to be sorted out. Are there any other 7-day industries where the employees optionally work one day?
  • It is a disgrace that many rail workers have not had a pay rise for several years.
  • Mobile tickets have made both ticket offices and ticket machines largely redundant. It is far more convenient to buy my ticket whilst travelling to the station, or even whilst waiting on the platform, than it is to queue up for a ticket office or machine.
  • I do not want to see trains without guards, however all too often, the guards don't come through the train. What are they doing? Freeing up their time from operating the doors to looking after customers seems sensible to me.
Hope this adds to what has been an interesting thread!
 

Annetts key

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The right wing tabloids are foaming at the mouth with sensational headlines about rail workers "Holding the country to ransom"
When, exactly, are the right wing tabloids not foaming at the mouth over something? Certainly some publish more fiction than anything else.

I think this is the key point being overlooked by RMT. Without COVID, or if COVID lockdowns had not lasted so long, the strikes would be having more impact.
Do you know that during the dark days of COVID19, the unions used Teams to extensively interact with Network Rail and so continue normal business (including regular scheduled meetings and consultation meetings) plus, discussions on changes to working practices due to COVID19.

People within the RMT realised during the COVID19 lockdown that passenger numbers would likely be affected after the restrictions ended. Of course no one knew exactly what would happen.

But one predicted outcome has come true. The right wing Conservative government wanting to use the fall in fare income as an excuse to attack employees terms & conditions and working practices. All to “save money”.

If it is purely about saving money, why are Network Rail currently advertising for hundreds of roster clarks? These are new posts. They want more office based staff rather than having staff actually maintaining the operational railway. See for yourself by searching using the key words “roster clark job network rail”.

  • The unreliable service on Sundays is a complete joke and needs to be sorted out. Are there any other 7-day industries where the employees optionally work one day?
Careful there, Sundays have been part of the normal working week for some railway employees since 1992. The problems with the Sunday service are due to problems within certain railway companies, not all parts of the railways.

  • It is a disgrace that many rail workers have not had a pay rise for several years.
Yes, absolutely. However, the changes to T&C and working practices that ‘they’ want are of even more of a concern to most union members.

  • Mobile tickets have made both ticket offices and ticket machines largely redundant. It is far more convenient to buy my ticket whilst travelling to the station, or even whilst waiting on the platform, than it is to queue up for a ticket office or machine.
As said elsewhere, not all passengers are good with technology. Or they want to deal with real people, as they have questions. So there is still a need for humans to be present (with proper facilities) to provide a service.

Don’t shops, cinemas, theatres, and similar places still have employees to interface with and provide a service to customers?

I’m not saying that we stand still with no changes. But am saying that if normal negotiations could take place, without interference from government, it’s very likely that some proper progress could be made.

And that’s the problem here. The unions want proper negotiations to take place. The government are however causing problems.

The point of ‘no compulsory redundancy agreements’ is that staff levels fall due to natural staff turnover, or by the use of voluntary redundancy schemes.
 
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CFRAIL

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In my retail days, in fact it's still the case... that Sunday is optional and staff can opt out of working them, so it's not exclusively the railway. My TOC has committed Sunday's for some grades and Sunday's in the week for drivers. Sunday reliability isn't an issue for us so this one size fits all doesn't work for our negotiation
 

farleigh

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I think that Mick Lynch is the first Union leader who has become a recognisable figure to the public since Arthur Scargill. I cannot think of any more in the years since those strikes.
 

Deltic1961

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It's frustrating seeing this go back and forth when irrespective of the outcome train staff will lose the most in the long run. People are finding alternative modes of transport and whatever happens pay ways train staff will lose jobs when the money runs out, or the franchises go bust, or the government pull the plug on a good lot of services. No guarantee in the terms and conditions can ultimately stop that. The ticket rises in England and Wales just make things worse.

Massive knock on effects on hospitality too so more job losses in another sector.

I'm a Scotrail customer and the service is terrible. I used to make a point of using the train but now I only do if I really have to. And I can't be the only one.

I booked one holiday by train and twice the dates have been strike days. Won't make that mistake again.
 

Huntergreed

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I'm a Scotrail customer and the service is terrible. I used to make a point of using the train but now I only do if I really have to. And I can't be the only one.
Out of curiosity, what problems do you face with ScotRail?

As a regular user of Scotrail, they are by far the most reliable, consistent TOC that I travel with. You can generally always rely on their trains running (bar an issue outside their control), the service is consistent and normally punctual, and customer service is generally pretty good!

Bear in mind the RMT have already settled with ScotRail, so any issues faced are likely related more with NR strikes than ScotRail themselves.
 

Facing Back

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The point of ‘no compulsory redundancy agreements’ is that staff levels fall due to natural staff turnover, or by the use of voluntary redundancy schemes.
Genuine questions if I may - I have lost track of precisely where this at in the pages and pages of forums so apologies if you've covered this.

I assume that your post is purely focused on the dispute with Network Rail and not the TOCS?

Is there a history of NR making compulsory redundancies or have they normally relied on natural wastage and VR?

Is part of their last offer a guarantee but only for a limited time or not guaranteed at all?

What do you expect to happen to displaced staff if there are any? I assume that they will be offered an equivalent level role. If they choose not to take it, do you consider this to be compulsory or voluntary redundancy?

Thanks

I think that Mick Lynch is the first Union leader who has become a recognisable figure to the public since Arthur Scargill. I cannot think of any more in the years since those strikes.
I thought Mick Cash might also qualify but I've asked a few of my friends who all say they had never heard of him - apart from one, an HR director.
 

yorkie

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Do you have any evidence of this?
My own experience plus that of others I've spoken to.
May I remind you that industrial action can only be called if enough members vote, and there is a majority in favour of taking action.
Does strike action require a majority of members (not voters but overall actual members) to vote for it?
 

Starmill

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The police can't strike the armed forces can't why should teachers and hospital staff be different
I think that it's a reasonable offer in principle, but when it comes to details, I think that getting a strike prohibition into contracts as with the police would result in very substantial pay rises across the board. I'd support such an offer being made of 25 - 30% rises, with slightly more at the bottom of pay scales, but convincing the government to cough up that much money would be problematic.
 

thedbdiboy

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People within the RMT realised during the COVID19 lockdown that passenger numbers would likely be affected after the restrictions ended. Of course no one knew exactly what would happen.

But one predicted outcome has come true. The right wing Conservative government wanting to use the fall in fare income as an excuse to attack employees terms & conditions and working practices. All to “save money”.
The problem is that it is not about 'saving money', it's about the Treasury trying to get back to somewhere in the region of the £4bn a year of public money that the railways consumed pre-Covid. I very much suspect that Labour in power would find many more pressing needs (health, education etc) before simply handing over the money to the rail industry to carry on as if Covid hadn't happened.

I remember making a (legal) journey via Reading during lockdown near the beginning before services were cut back and being treated to the bizarre sight of a full service running with virtually no-one on it. I remember at the time thinking that when the bill came in for all of this it was going to be mighty painful.
 
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