Fuel price Motorway protests

[C J Snarzell]

To be fair, the Blair-era fuel protests forced changes in policy... and all that was when fuel was well below £1 a litre.

And to think we were all worried about the fuel prices becoming ridiculous back in 2000!

If only we were paying £1 a litre now, it would be like seventh heaven for us all.

I am sure around 2044, when fuel reaches £3 a litre, we will all be thinking back to how great it would be paying 2022 prices!!!!

CJ

 

[yorkie]

....However, fossil-derived fuels have likely been underpriced for years, encouraging an unsustainable dependency on them....

Exactly this.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is incredibly blinkered and quite naïve.

 

[nlogax]

I am sure around 2044, when fuel reaches £3 a litre,

You mean 2024, right?

 

[flymo]

Having recently bought a car as I had big plans for the summer, I'm somewhat in a quandary now as to when and how to use it. Sunday I wanted to go to York, (currently living near Scarborough) just for the day and after reviewing the costs involved decided thus:
It's about an 100 mile round trip (ok 80 but plus a little bit of exploring) so about 1/4 of a tank of fuel. This is about 10 litres. This equates to about £19 in fuel alone, plus parking etc which would be a few ££ on top. I'd reckon about £25 in total taking to car. The bus (843) is £19 return but takes a while, the train (TPE so it may or may not run, depending on the way the coin toss lands) was about £21 return. In the end I decided on the train so the economies of running a car for myself will take a little bit of thinking about and may end up in the car being sold on.
This weekend I'm looking at a possible day trip to Blackpool and again the train at ~£50 return is the clear winner. Driving would be about 300 miles return so 3/4 of a tank so upwards of £57 for fuel alone, plus parking etc. The convenience of the car is unbeatable, it is however a luxury that is now almost unaffordable to run. What's fuel gone up by ? over 40% in a couple of years (£1.30 - £1.90 ??)

 

[High Dyke]

Reverting to the subject of the protests themselves, there were BBC news clips earlier today showing a stinger being deployed by West Yorkshire Police at Ferrybridge Services to 'deter' motorists thinking of joining any protest, but also, apparently, other drivers who were just going about their lawful business. I've got to say I found this outrageous but, given the identity of the police force, not surprising. Perhaps it's my incompetence that prevents me finding it again, and in the fact that it's not my local area

Here's the ITV news report on the stinger deployment.

Police defend use of 'stinger' at M62 fuel protest | ITV News

West Yorkshire Police used a device designed to puncture tyres as protestors gathered at Ferryrbridge Services. | ITV News Calendar

www.itv.com

 

[TheEdge]

I don't think that it's at all true to imply that @yorkie was saying that fuel prices are irrelevant. They were pointing out that there are small mitigations open to almost everyone to reduce fuel costs, including car sharing for longer journeys and walking or cycling for shorter journeys.

Look at the photos of the protests. It's not car drivers, it's lorries, tractors, haulage. Those are the sectors really suffering here and those are the sectors which impact all of us, despite @yorkie seeming to say if you are not a private car owner it has no impact on your life. How are people who live in rural areas with no option but to drive supposed to make these changes?

Most regular public transport users will already be paying more than the variable cost elements of driving for their journey anyway.

But it'll keep going up. If buses are buying at the taxed rate, their prices go up, if red diesel stays as high as it is rail fares will have to account for that. And most importantly if farmers keep having the cost of red diesel go up (along with all their other costs) the price of food keeps going up.

Obviously fuel costs feed through to other things in life as you say, because so many goods rely on it to be delivered. I don't think @yorkie was saying it doesn't. However, fossil-derived fuels have likely been underpriced for years, encouraging an unsustainable dependency on them.

But it isn't the fuel that's overpriced, it's the massive amount of tax on top. Someone posted the figures elsewhere but it's something like 70p a litre. Fossil fuels are so ingrained in our supply chain you can't just have them spike like this and have the government seemingly throw up their hands and walk away.

I support people's right to protest. They can protest if they like. But also it won't reduce prices and nobody can reasonably expect for it to do so.

As someone pointed out elsewhere the fuel protests of the early 00s did enact change.

If the government ends the 5p / litre relief next year that will result in another noticeable jump up. I predict some further rises on top of that. Prices are likely to be much higher than for the past decade. Perhaps we should all just get used to it.

Something has to change then and the government has, has, to intervene. They cannot allow fuel prices to keep climbing while doing nothing. People in rural areas need to be able to move around, farmers need to be able to produce food and survive. The haulage industry needs to be able to function. Even if it's something like allowing the haulage industry to use red diesel, at least that'll help stem the pain on food costs.

 

[Starmill]

Look at the photos of the protests. It's not car drivers, it's lorries, tractors, haulage. Those are the sectors really suffering here and those are the sectors which impact all of us, despite @yorkie seeming to say if you are not a private car owner it has no impact on your life. How are people who live in rural areas with no option but to drive supposed to make these changes?



But it'll keep going up. If buses are buying at the taxed rate, their prices go up, if red diesel stays as high as it is rail fares will have to account for that. And most importantly if farmers keep having the cost of red diesel go up (along with all their other costs) the price of food keeps going up.



But it isn't the fuel that's overpriced, it's the massive amount of tax on top. Someone posted the figures elsewhere but it's something like 70p a litre. Fossil fuels are so ingrained in our supply chain you can't just have them spike like this and have the government seemingly throw up their hands and walk away.



As someone pointed out elsewhere the fuel protests of the early 00s did enact change.



Something has to change then and the government has, has, to intervene. They cannot allow fuel prices to keep climbing while doing nothing. People in rural areas need to be able to move around, farmers need to be able to produce food and survive. The haulage industry needs to be able to function. Even if it's something like allowing the haulage industry to use red diesel, at least that'll help stem the pain on food costs.

This is all your opinion though. Of course you're 100% entitled to it, but there doesn't seem to be an enormous amount of evidence to support the assertion that something has to change. Fuel prices at an average of 15 - 25% higher than has been typical over the last ten years are entirely unavoidable at this point. The economy will adjust. Long term, in the coming decades, the average retail price will breach £2.50 then £3. How would you propose to prevent that, bearing in mind that the supply of fossil-derived products is finite? It will happen eventually regardless of what you do.

By being aware now that the price will keep going up you have plenty of advance warning. And some time to adjust accordingly.

As for the 5p per litre I'd be interested to hear your suggestions for how to make up for the lost revenues if it doesn't go back on? An extra few pounds per month in council tax? A small increase in the higher rate of income tax? Higher rates of vehicle excise duty? I'm all ears.

 

[AM9]

Look at the photos of the protests. It's not car drivers, it's lorries, tractors, haulage. Those are the sectors really suffering here and those are the sectors which impact all of us, despite @yorkie seeming to say if you are not a private car owner it has no impact on your life. How are people who live in rural areas with no option but to drive supposed to make these changes?



But it'll keep going up. If buses are buying at the taxed rate, their prices go up, if red diesel stays as high as it is rail fares will have to account for that. And most importantly if farmers keep having the cost of red diesel go up (along with all their other costs) the price of food keeps going up.



But it isn't the fuel that's overpriced, it's the massive amount of tax on top. Someone posted the figures elsewhere but it's something like 70p a litre. Fossil fuels are so ingrained in our supply chain you can't just have them spike like this and have the government seemingly throw up their hands and walk away.



As someone pointed out elsewhere the fuel protests of the early 00s did enact change.



Something has to change then and the government has, has, to intervene. They cannot allow fuel prices to keep climbing while doing nothing. People in rural areas need to be able to move around, farmers need to be able to produce food and survive. The haulage industry needs to be able to function. Even if it's something like allowing the haulage industry to use red diesel, at least that'll help stem the pain on food costs.

So your complaint seems to be that the problem is being caused by the tax and duty put on hydrocarbon fuel. That money is part of the funds that pay for all government services, e.g. the NHS, schooling, defence, police, public transport, pensions etc.. Let's say the government are prepared to cut the fuel tax/duty take. Which services that are currently funded from that taxation pot would you cut and by how much?

 

[TheEdge]

This is all your opinion though. Of course you're 100% entitled to it, but there doesn't seem to be an enormous amount of evidence to support the assertion that something has to change.

Well it does. People cannot afford to have fuel costing what it now is or to have to have it go up. Either to fuel their car or the trickle down impacts elsewhere. If it has to go up the government could at least intervene to slow the rise rather the just have it be meteoric.

Once again, what about where public transport isn't an option? Anyone who lives in a vaguely rural area and doesn't work 9-5 Monday to Friday can't rely on public transport, especially if it's buses only. So what do they do? Just suck on the fact their fuel bill has shot up, espdxit when you then account for the loss in mpg from E10, just to get to work. In the meantime every other cost has gone up.

Fuel prices at an average of 15 - 25% higher than has been typical over the last ten years are entirely unavoidable at this point. The economy will adjust. Long term, in the coming decades, the average retail price will breach £2.50 then £3.

Perhaps in that time electric, hydrogen or other fuels may have matured but in the short term there has to be a bridge

How would you propose to prevent that, bearing in mind that the supply of fossil-derived products is finite? It will happen eventually regardless of what you do.

By being aware now that the price will keep going up you have plenty of advance warning. And some time to adjust accordingly.

We've not had advance warning here, its shot up and stayed up in a pretty sudden fashion, well above normal changes. As I said above, help normal people bridge the gap between fossil fuel and alternatives, not just hanging people out to dry with huge increases on their fuel.

So your complaint seems to be that the problem is being caused by the tax and duty put on hydrocarbon fuel. That money is part of the funds that pay for all government services, e.g. the NHS, schooling, defence, police, public transport, pensions etc.. Let's say the government are prepared to cut the fuel tax/duty take. Which services that are currently funded from that taxation pot would you cut and by how much?

Well that would be up to the Treasury if they really cared (which lets be honest, they don't). I'm no economist but perhaps either look at finding a sweet spot between lowing the tax on the pumps but not so much as to cause a massive black hole. Money from the windfall taxes on the fuel companies? Maybe they could consider going after the various massive corporations (or individuals) who operate in the UK but pay thruppance in tax becuase they are "based" in offshore tax havens.

 

[Flying Snail]

This is all your opinion though. Of course you're 100% entitled to it, but there doesn't seem to be an enormous amount of evidence to support the assertion that something has to change. Fuel prices at an average of 15 - 25% higher than has been typical over the last ten years are entirely unavoidable at this point. The economy will adjust. Long term, in the coming decades, the average retail price will breach £2.50 then £3. How would you propose to prevent that, bearing in mind that the supply of fossil-derived products is finite? It will happen eventually regardless of what you do.

By being aware now that the price will keep going up you have plenty of advance warning. And some time to adjust accordingly.

As for the 5p per litre I'd be interested to hear your suggestions for how to make up for the lost revenues if it doesn't go back on? An extra few pounds per month in council tax? A small increase in the higher rate of income tax? Higher rates of vehicle excise duty? I'm all ears.

What lost revenue? Because of the double taxation on fuel (Duty + VAT) the higher the price in £ of a barrel of crude the higher the tax take per litre of fuel. Within a few weeks of the 5p/l cut in duty the increasing market price of fuel would have more than made up any shortfall in tax take due to increased VAT returns.

If the tax regime was changed to a fixed price per litre in total after VAT then the % increase/decrease due to crude oil volatility would be considerably less as such a high % of the retail price is already tax.

Ignoring this increasingly extreme tax take is as others have said just another covid clawback.

 

[plugwash]

isn't there a law against this sort of thing or does that only apply to dirty students who glue themselves to things rather than decent honest, salt of the earth working people?

I suspect the problem is it's hard to distinguish those causing the disruption from those merely caught up in it.

 

[Flying Snail]

I suspect the problem is it's hard to distinguish those causing the disruption from those merely caught up in it.

That should be the police's problem what with the whole presumption of innocence and all that.

Except of course when any sniff of "Public Order" enters the mix the whole facade of policing by consent disappears and they quickly descend into a nasty bunch of rent-a-thugs openly denying the rights of any and everyone within reach.

 

[C J Snarzell]

You mean 2024, right?

...or maybe January 2023 at the rate its presently going up!!!!

CJ

 

[AM9]

Well that would be up to the Treasury if they really cared (which lets be honest, they don't). I'm no economist but perhaps either look at finding a sweet spot between lowing the tax on the pumps but not so much as to cause a massive black hole. Money from the windfall taxes on the fuel companies? Maybe they could consider going after the various massive corporations (or individuals) who operate in the UK but pay thruppance in tax becuase they are "based" in offshore tax havens.

This "sweet spot" that you refer to is something that you think is correct. Any suggestions as to what that would be? What will happen to that when the basic cost continues to rise?
Then there's the windfall tax on oil companies, - of course guaranteed to reduce future output causing further price rises, so what then?
As far as tackling tax avoidance, this has been in process for years with very limited success, so wouldn't bring anything fast enough even slightly addressing the loss of fuel taxes by your 'sweet spot' action.
It seems maybe coincidentally that your suggestions amount to somebody else paying more so that you can pay less for driving around. Any serious suggestion would see a more balanced contribution/sacrifice argument.

 

[Yew]

It's primarily 1-2 with a side-order of 3. In general, forecourt operators don't make huge profits and with prices this high people are being more careful about where they buy from which limits the ability to over-charge.

I don't think the person you were replying to was talking about forecourt operators, he was talking about companies like Shell, Exxon and Standard Oil.

I don't think that it's at all true to imply that @yorkie was saying that fuel prices are irrelevant. They were pointing out that there are small mitigations open to almost everyone to reduce fuel costs, including car sharing for longer journeys and walking or cycling for shorter journeys.

Most regular public transport users will already be paying more than the variable cost elements of driving for their journey anyway.

Obviously fuel costs feed through to other things in life as you say, because so many goods rely on it to be delivered. I don't think @yorkie was saying it doesn't. However, fossil-derived fuels have likely been underpriced for years, encouraging an unsustainable dependency on them. Higher prices will reduce this dependency. I expect those higher prices to continue feeding through for some months yet, and that of course will eventually have long term structural effects on the economy.

I support people's right to protest. They can protest if they like. But also it won't reduce prices and nobody can reasonably expect for it to do so.

If the government ends the 5p / litre relief next year that will result in another noticeable jump up. I predict some further rises on top of that. Prices are likely to be much higher than for the past decade. Perhaps we should all just get used to it.

So we already have families choosing between heating or eating, and you suggest that they just "get used to" higher prices?

Then there's the windfall tax on oil companies, - of course guaranteed to reduce future output causing further price rises, so what then?

If only there was some way that oil production could be at done in the national interest.

Long term, in the coming decades, the average retail price will breach £2.50 then £3. How would you propose to prevent that, bearing in mind that the supply of fossil-derived products is finite? It will happen eventually regardless of what you do.

Do you have any evidence for this? Or are you just making up numbers to support your argument. With the increasing numbers of electric cars, I struggle to see how the demand for conventional fossil fuels will remain high enough to support such prices in real terms.

 

[Starmill]

What lost revenue? Because of the double taxation on fuel (Duty + VAT) the higher the price in £ of a barrel of crude the higher the tax take per litre of fuel. Within a few weeks of the 5p/l cut in duty the increasing market price of fuel would have more than made up any shortfall in tax take due to increased VAT returns.

If the tax regime was changed to a fixed price per litre in total after VAT then the % increase/decrease due to crude oil volatility would be considerably less as such a high % of the retail price is already tax.

Ignoring this increasingly extreme tax take is as others have said just another covid clawback.

In what way is the tax take 'extreme'? VAT raises revenue economy wide, and the current higher fuel prices aren't making up for the lost VAT on other sales which are still well below their pre-pandemic base. The tax regime has already been loosened temporarily by putting forward the 5p / litre cut.

We've not had advance warning here, its shot up and stayed up in a pretty sudden fashion, well above normal changes. As I said above, help normal people bridge the gap between fossil fuel and alternatives, not just hanging people out to dry with huge increases on their fuel.

People have been saying for decades that the supply of fossil fuels is finite and eventually will become scarcer and scarcer as it runs out. The pandemic slashed investment in new oil and gas exploration to near zero, and it has stayed very low. Is that really not an advance warning?

If it has to go up the government could at least intervene to slow the rise rather the just have it be meteoric.

But they already have haven't they. There's temporary tax relief on motor fuel. Other sectors haven't had that.

 

[TheEdge]

People have been saying for decades that the supply of fossil fuels is finite and eventually will become scarcer and scarcer as it runs out. The pandemic slashed investment in new oil and gas exploration to near zero, and it has stayed very low. Is that really not an advance warning?

Of the big changes, yes, hence the gradual production and uptake of electric cars. But not of the sudden spike in forecourt prices we are seeing now.

But they already have haven't they. There's temporary tax relief on motor fuel. Other sectors haven't had that.

5p, which no one saw because the prices went up faster than that 5p came off. The only relief seems to be no one wants to be the first brand who charged £2/l on normal forecourts for diesel which is keeping diesel stuck at 199.9 and petrol around the 190-195 mark.

 

[Flying Snail]

In what way is the tax take 'extreme'? VAT raises revenue economy wide, and the current higher fuel prices aren't making up for the lost VAT on other sales which are still well below their pre-pandemic base. The tax regime has already been loosened temporarily by putting forward the 5p / litre cut.

So just load an ever increasing tax burden on a product that is essential to many? The well off will grumble and continue to fill up their SUVs, the poor will just be even poorer and face more obstacles to overcome in performing basic tasks such as getting to work.

 

[Starmill]

So just load an ever increasing tax burden on a product that is essential to many? The well off will grumble and continue to fill up their SUVs, the poor will just be even poorer and face more obstacles to overcome in performing basic tasks such as getting to work.

No. This is fundamentally wrong. The burden hasn't actually increased significantly because the duty today is 6p per litre lower than it was in January 2011.

 

[Geezertronic]

Of the big changes, yes, hence the gradual production and uptake of electric cars. But not of the sudden spike in forecourt prices we are seeing now.



5p, which no one saw because the prices went up faster than that 5p came off. The only relief seems to be no one wants to be the first brand who charged £2/l on normal forecourts for diesel which is keeping diesel stuck at 199.9 and petrol around the 190-195 mark.

I saw that at the weekend as I filled the (diesel) van up at Costco where unsurprisingly there was a queue because diesel was 186.9p where everywhere else nearby looks to be charging 199.9p. As well, Costco used to have a limit of £100 per transaction which looks to have been raised to £120. Still wasn't able to fill the van up with the increased limit though

Here is a nice breakdown of the fuel prices from the RAC:

Daily Fuel Prices

Pump price (pence per litre) of which:	191.53p	199.03p
Wholesale fossil fuel price (comprising oil production & refining)	78.72p	81.02p
Wholesale biofuel price (comprising biodiesel and ethanol production & refining)	11.48p	19.02p
Delivery and distribution	1.7p	2.1p
Retail margin (forecourt costs & profit)	14.1p	10.09p
Duty	52.95p	52.95p
VAT (Petrol 20%, Diesel 20%)	31.92p	33.17p
Greenhouse Gas Obligation & Development Fuel Obligation	0.654p	0.676p
Percentage of the pump price that is duty, VAT & environmental taxes/fees	44.65%	43.61%
Taxes, duties, pump prices and wholesale prices are latest data as of 2022-07-04. Last updated: 2022-07-05 09:00:15 (GMT)
All prices used here are as of the pump price date. Retailers buy the fuel they sell at a range of dates (and therefore, prices) prior to the date of sale to motorists. As a result, the component prices shown here should be treated only as indicative of the national market, and not an account of any specific retailer's costs or profits.
*Petrol and Diesel have different densities therefore conversion factors are used to change fuel prices in tonnes to fuel price in litres. There may be some anomalies due to rounding errors.
		Source: RAC Foundation

UK pump prices

The table below shows the latest average petrol and diesel pump prices for the UK and gives a breakdown of how the price is derived. The wholesale prices (as at

www.racfoundation.org

 

[AM9]

If only there was some way that oil production could be at done in the national interest.

With all these arguments claiming that food costs are being driven up by road fuel costs, "the national interest might not include a lower price for private motorists. Be careful of what you wish for.

 

[kristiang85]

Funny how the comments in the Daily Mail article seem markedly more supportive than when its a XR or Insulate Britain blockage.

Probably because these protests are about money in peoples' pockets, whereas for the average citizen what XR are protesting about will only make life poorer.

Yes there's the long term argument, but most people only care about how they are going to pay for food tomorrow, not worrying about getting food in 50 years time.

 

[Broucek]

So just load an ever increasing tax burden on a product that is essential to many? The well off will grumble and continue to fill up their SUVs, the poor will just be even poorer and face more obstacles to overcome in performing basic tasks such as getting to work.

A lot of the moves to encourage "cleaner" vehicles, whilst understandable on many levels, have the regrettable side effect of punishing the less well off who often drive older vehicles whilst having much less impact on the comparatively well-to-do. I suspect part of the problem is that many in the business/media/political elite have very little understanding of or empathy for people on lower income (and for who trains are not an option due to location and/or cost)

 

[Yew]

With all these arguments claiming that food costs are being driven up by road fuel costs, "the national interest might not include a lower price for private motorists. Be careful of what you wish for.

What makes you think that?

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's primarily 1-2 with a side-order of 3. In general, forecourt operators don't make huge profits and with prices this high people are being more careful about where they buy from which limits the ability to over-charge.

There is plenty of 4. Not by the forecourt operators but by the oil companies who are making record profits because of the windfall from high oil prices.

 

[Broucek]

There is plenty of 4. Not by the forecourt operators but by the oil companies who are making record profits because of the windfall from high oil prices.

They are indeed making big profits but that's precisely because of point 1 (high global oil price)

 

[Geezertronic]

There is plenty of 4. Not by the forecourt operators but by the oil companies who are making record profits because of the windfall from high oil prices.

They are indeed making big profits but that's precisely because of point 1 (high global oil price)

But the price of crude oil is still $50 (ish) dollars a barrel less than the peak in 2008 (and even the high prices in 2011 & 2014), and even the exchange rate differences doesn't account for the high fuel prices.

 

[Ediswan]

But the price of crude oil is still $50 (ish) dollars a barrel less than the peak in 2008 (and even the high prices in 2011 & 2014), and even the exchange rate differences doesn't account for the high fuel prices.

I would also be looking at the price history of refined petrol and diesel rather than just crude oil.

 

[Busaholic]

I think we need to wait and see what the new Chancellor, Jacob Rees-Mogg, decides.

 

[TheEdge]

I think we need to wait and see what the new Chancellor, Jacob Rees-Mogg, decides.

Presumably he'll cut the tax on hay so running costs on the Landau will drop.