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Further budget cuts to England railways

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Hadders

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I fear we will see things like:

Reduction in services
Reduction in train lengths
Reduce staffing levels at stations
Reduce ticket office opening hours and staffing levels
Reduce the number of TVMs that accept cash
Close stations that see little use
Reduce cleaning of trains and stations
Reduce or remove onboard catering where it is unprofitable
Look to rent out more space at stations to shops and businesses
Close toilets at stations
Increase car parking charges
Look for opportunities for 'maintenance holidays' of rolling stock and station buildings
Increase use of agency staff for non safety critical roles if this is cheaper
 

Sonic1234

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Reduction in services
Reduction in train lengths
I was always concerned the Government were using the work to rule on GTR as a test for this. Anecdotally, off-peak on Southern, it did look like 2 trains worth of people on each train and people were managing fine with the frequency reduction - unfortunately.
 

geoffk

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A fragmented railway, the result of the privatisation process 25 years ago, has led to waste and duplication and hence much of the increase in running costs. The McNulty report of 2011 (all those years ago!) found that railway costs in the UK were about 30% higher than elsewhere - one explanation is that all the extra accountants, lawyers and consultants have made the railway less efficient. The report also highlights the ultra-defensive attitude to safety. The contribution from the taxpayer almost doubled from £2.3bn in 1996 to £4.2bn in real terms in 2016-17, despite passenger growth and a decision to push more of the cost on to passengers (i.e. higher fares).

Why not try to remove these inefficiences rather than talk about cuts to services and staff?
 

Bletchleyite

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I should add that if we see a single non-Parliamentary* route or station close over this, then that's a real scandal compared to a realistic and measured reduction, achieved by natural wastage and genuine voluntary redundancy with a decent package, in booking office staffing where they are underused (rather than the stupid proposals that were actually made).

Indeed, it'd be like Beeching all over, where the two options were "full service branch line with staffed stations and guards" or "nothing", without considering things like the basic railway that BR came up with later, i.e. unstaffed stations and Paytrains.

* Parliamentaries are silly. Close it or run a proper service.

I was always concerned the Government were using the work to rule on GTR as a test for this. Anecdotally, off-peak on Southern, it did look like 2 trains worth of people on each train and people were managing fine with the frequency reduction - unfortunately.

I must admit I was surprised when I saw the new (current) south WCML timetable that it contains quite so many 8 car peak extras. The odd one or two may be justified, and the Bletchley extensions of Trings are effectively free as they come off Bletchley depot in the morning and go back onto it in the evening, but just having an all week Saturday timetable (i.e. the Crewe, 2 Trings, 2 MKCs and 2 Birminghams) with 12 car peak running (8 north of Northampton) would probably cope fine.

Why not try to remove these inefficiences rather than talk about cuts to services and staff?

Ironically they dumped one of those inefficiency fixes by getting rid of the idea of a single official sales channel rather than several of them doing the same thing. While at the same time making the National Rail site unusably bad.

I think the Sunak Government are simply seeing the railway as their National Coal Board.
 
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JonathanH

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Why not try to remove these inefficiences rather than talk about cuts to services and staff?
Whichever way it is done, removing inefficiency essentially comes down to cutting staff, whether back office, professional or front line, and the loss of a livelihood.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whichever way it is done, removing inefficiency essentially comes down to cutting staff, whether back office, professional or front line, and the loss of a livelihood.

Because people leave and retire all the time, the best ones involve taking advantage of that by not recruiting into specific positions. There's also the option of cutting the timetable to the point that rest-day working is no longer required, which would have reliability advantages.
 

HSTEd

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I doubt any actual cuts will be made to anything but capital investment budgets.

The government and industry are too moribund and frightened of bad press to do anything else.

The death of the railway will be slow and lingering, there will be no Beeching level death and rebirth.
 

JonathanH

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There's also the option of cutting the timetable to the point that rest-day working is no longer required, which would have reliability advantages.
There is, but I assume that even there some staff rely on the income that rest-day working gives them.
 

43066

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I fear we will see things like:

Reduction in services
Reduction in train lengths
Reduce staffing levels at stations
Reduce ticket office opening hours and staffing levels
Reduce the number of TVMs that accept cash
Close stations that see little use
Reduce cleaning of trains and stations
Reduce or remove onboard catering where it is unprofitable
Look to rent out more space at stations to shops and businesses
Close toilets at stations
Increase car parking charges
Look for opportunities for 'maintenance holidays' of rolling stock and station buildings
Increase use of agency staff for non safety critical roles if this is cheaper

Indeed, although they may not have time for all of these. Disappointing to see that the government is still wedded to insisting on destructive short term cuts (which won’t actually save much at all), rather than allowing the railway to grow revenue via the leisure sector and encouraging commuters back. These things will only happen when it is made more reliable and more usable, the very opposite of what the current approach will achieve.

Sadly the current scorched earth approach seems likely to continue until a change of government.

I should add that if we see a single non-Parliamentary* route or station close over this, then that's a real scandal compared to a realistic and measured reduction, achieved by natural wastage and genuine voluntary redundancy with a decent package, in booking office staffing where they are underused (rather than the stupid proposals that were actually made).

Not sure there’s really that much to cut in terms of staff numbers now that they’ve rowed back on ticket office closures, which was the obvious area of low hanging fruit. Ticket offices and other station roles (where they still exist) are already understaffed in quite a few location due to the recruitment freeze and people transferring to other roles or leaving due to the threat of being made redundant or otherwise got rid of.

The more positive side is that it’ll be hard for them to actually cut services now that passenger numbers are increasing - much as that may frustrate the powers that be!
 
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JonathanH

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I doubt any actual cuts will be made to anything but capital investment budgets.
Yes, and that puts construction workers and engineers out of work.

The death of the railway will be slow and lingering, there will be no Beeching level death and rebirth.
Going a bit far I would imagine. Are you suggesting that it will ultimately shut down?
 

Gloster

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Maybe I am a cynic. All right, I am a cynic, but I wonder if this just another part of the run up to an election. The Government puts forward massive cuts to the railways, the unions object strongly, Labour says it will not allow any such cuts, the Conservatives claim that Labour is in the pockets of the unions and not prepared to take decisions required for the good of the country. If the unions also start taking, or even threaten, industrial action, the Conservatives can push a, ‘Who runs the country’ line. And it will all go down well with the petrolheads who already seem to be lined up for promises by the Conservatives.
 

43066

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Some no doubt do, but the Unions' public policies are that they want rid of it, so I don't think individuals can really complain if the railway was to do as requested.

That’s true, but cutting costs by removing RDW will require either a big cut in services, which will be hard to justify politically as passenger numbers rise towards the election, or significant recruitment which will take a long time, and will render the cost base higher than reliance on RDW in the first place.

Ironically quietly resolving the ASLEF dispute would provide a quick fix to reliability (at least the traincrew related aspects), and is increasingly likely as we get towards the election, especially now that the RMT side is sorted.

Fundamentally the government’s problem is that there simply isn’t much fat left to cut, and no easy way to make the large fixed costs disappear. The current unreliability also generates negative headlines out of proportion to the numbers who are actually inconvenienced.

I would imagine that the main cost of the railways is people, so the only way to cut costs is to reduce staffing.

People is one significant area of cost, already reduced in real terms due to lack of pay rises, rolling stock is also significant which the government has done nothing to reform, debt interest (albeit AIUI that’s accounted for as part of general government debt) and various other fixed and variable costs.

Network rail costs more than the TOC side, including areas such as infrastructure and renewals, which dwarf the passenger operators’ staff budget in 2022-23. Obviously a proportion of that cost will be people, but NR have already undergone a significant workplace reform/reduction program.

See below for more detail on the figures:


Income for the operational rail industry was £22.7 billion. Adjusted for
inflation this is a decrease of 3.2% from the previous year. This
consisted of £11.9 billion from government funding, £9.2 billion from
passenger operators (£8.6 billion of fares and £0.6 billion of other
operator income), and £1.5 billion from other sources.
Expenditure for the operational rail industry was £25.4 billion. Adjusted
for inflation this is a 1.0% increase from the previous year, largely due
to increased finance costs. This consisted of £12.4 billion of Network
Rail expenditure, £11.7 billion of franchised train operator expenditure,
and £1.3 billion of expenditure by other parts of the rail industry.
 
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HSTEd

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Going a bit far I would imagine. Are you suggesting that it will ultimately shut down?
Not all of it, some suburban operations are sure to survive, along with some intercity operations that might be able prop themselves up.

But the Government and Rail Industry are unwilling to carry forward any meaningful changes to working practices or major redundancies.
They are also unwilling to make operational cuts on anything like the scale required.

All that will happen is the railway will slowly die as infrastructure and service improvements die and the industry fades into irrelevance in the face of road (and eventually aviation) decarbonisation.

Truly saving the industry would likely require fighting every single vested interest, from staff to management to corporate types, all at once. There will never be enough political will to make it happen
 
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irish_rail

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I'd add that effective traincrew diagramming needs looking at. We need more drivers doing a full service (so say a Plymouth driver working Plymouth to London and back again, or a Liverpool driver driving to Newcastle and back again). Despite the largely discredited view that changing drivers 5 times on route saves money, (it really doesnt), traincrew strategy needs looking at again. This could probably lead to a reduced headcount (with natural wasteage), but only if the right depots work the right routes, and some of the fat that has built up in the past few years is trimmed.
 

yorksrob

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Key thing is to say you're doing things. Tell central government your "plans" and how you're going to achieve them. Avoid doing anything, come up with reasons why the cuts haven't been achieved, put things off as much as possible until we're rid of them.
 

RT4038

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Reduce the number of trains running Monday to Saturday, particularly focusing on those with lower passenger to crew member ratio and / or are inefficient in terms of crew scheduling, and where possible strengthen the capacity of the remaining services; down to the available / projected in the short term staff numbers, whilst also bringing Sundays into the roster.

Indeed, it'd be like Beeching all over, where the two options were "full service branch line with staffed stations and guards" or "nothing", without considering things like the basic railway that BR came up with later, i.e. unstaffed stations and Paytrains.
Indeed, it almost feels deja vu of that era, with intransigent staff thinking their increasingly costly industry is going to be bankrolled forever. Every economy that is proposed being fought tooth and nail until management stop proposing them and just go for the armageddon reduction options. The 'basic railway' only came about when both staff and management became punch drunk with the scale of the cutbacks already introduced and realised their place was really threatened and not as essential as they thought. Rather too little and too late.

At the risk of being stamped on by some other posters who have personal 'irons in the fire' , my thoughts are
  • The world has moved since Covid - working from home means the railway is less essential on a daily basis, and industrial disputes no longer have the same threatening effect on the economy that maybe they once did.
  • railwaymen have the choice of jobs: good pay with flexible affordable terms and conditions, or low pay with inflexible expensive terms and conditions, but not both. Institutional voluntary overtime has got to go - the weaponising of this in recent times has shown that it no longer has a place.
  • rostering terms and conditions need to be flexible and focused on economically covering all the turns as a priority. This has been lost and needs returning.
  • when professional people start leaving their professions to take up train driving there is something wrong with the costs of train drivers. Sorry.
  • Train services have got to become more reliable or they will continue to lose relevance.
  • The population is not going to accept paying (by both fares and/or taxation) for railway pay and terms and conditions which are seen as substantially better than their own and their view of the railway worth in society.
So either the railway staff need to put prices on and negotiate the productivity improvements / t&c changes that are being sought or they will be circumvented by armageddon options. It is myopic to think that their productivity/cost issues can be smokescreened away by pointing out other inefficiencies in railway structure (which no doubt need addressing too).

The recent Government actions need to be ringing some alarm bells - almost indifference to the industrial dispute and the cutting back of HS2 and reallocation of funds to road transport projects. Sure there may always be a place for some railways, but the extent is always up for argument - inter alia, Argentina and South Africa only have (practicably) metro suburban lines now. There may well be a different political party after the next election, but this issue is not going to go away and there is history that it may well return with a vengeance.
 

43096

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I'd add that effective traincrew diagramming needs looking at. We need more drivers doing a full service (so say a Plymouth driver working Plymouth to London and back again, or a Liverpool driver driving to Newcastle and back again). Despite the largely discredited view that changing drivers 5 times on route saves money, (it really doesnt), traincrew strategy needs looking at again. This could probably lead to a reduced headcount (with natural wasteage), but only if the right depots work the right routes, and some of the fat that has built up in the past few years is trimmed.
I have never understood how anyone could even think that changing drivers so often would make a saving. It stands to reason that the longer the driver is in the seat on the same train the better. Once you start swapping drivers over each driver loses at least 15 mins of productivity as they move between trains. It's clearly delusional that this would be better in any way (service resilience, cost etc etc).
 

Rail Quest

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With the 2024 budget set to be announced 6th March (source), to me this sounds like the government may be gearing up to try and make a cut to taxes again by again cutting more money to public services. Perhaps this would then be followed by a Spring 2024 general election where the tories believe that a tax cut just before the next election will give them ammunition to say "we're helping people through the cost of living crisis by cutting taxes, as well as encouraging investment" and thus affecting their polls whilst quietly putting the railways under yet more stress.

Of course, what I would think of such a move, if my theory were to be correct, is far from positive :lol:
 

geoffk

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With the 2024 budget set to be announced 6th March (source), to me this sounds like the government may be gearing up to try and make a cut to taxes again by again cutting more money to public services. Perhaps this would then be followed by a Spring 2024 general election where the tories believe that a tax cut just before the next election will give them ammunition to say "we're helping people through the cost of living crisis by cutting taxes, as well as encouraging investment" and thus affecting their polls whilst quietly putting the railways under yet more stress.

Of course, what I would think of such a move, if my theory were to be correct, is far from positive :lol:
We cannot have Scandinavian levels of public service if we want to pay US levels of tax. Politicians try to promise both but we have to make a choice at election time (assuming any of the parties are offering that choice).
 

Mcr Warrior

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How big a cost, currently, is the leasing of rolling stock? Any potential savings to be made there?
 

JonathanH

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How big a cost, currently, is the leasing of rolling stock? Any potential savings to be made there?
That depends on when the contracts end.

There isn't a saving available by moving away from the leasing model as money isn't going to be made available to allow outright purchase of rolling stock.
 

skyhigh

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achieved by natural wastage and genuine voluntary redundancy with a decent package, in booking office staffing where they are underused (rather than the stupid proposals that were actually made).
I think the DfT has burnt their bridges there.

At a certain OLR TOC, voluntary redundancy applications were opened (from memory in 2021) to every grade other than traincrew. People looked at their potential payout and applied. The company then decided that they were understaffed and didn't make a single person redundant.

They then reopened a new voluntary redundancy scheme when the ticket office proposals came in 2023. A number decided they wanted to apply and did so. Then the changes were dropped and the scheme was killed off again with not a single redundancy.

If they opened the scheme a third time I don't think many would bother applying again based on the amount of messing around in the last 2 rounds.
 

Stephen42

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How big a cost, currently, is the leasing of rolling stock? Any potential savings to be made there?
In the year 2022-2023 rolling stock costs were 10% lower in real terms than 2020-2021. Some of this is reduction in cash terms and others from fixed leases where inflation pushes down the real term cost as the stock gets older. It's a little under a quarter of franchised operator expenditure.

Aside from doing less mileage reducing costs for some fleets, most savings are longer term of handing back stock/renegotiation of deals where there is additional supply in the market or seeking alternative solutions. Several of the live fleet procurements are replacing older stock where new stock is expected to be more cost effective.
 

dk1

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There is, but I assume that even there some staff rely on the income that rest-day working gives them.

Should never rely on overtime. Got told that back in 1984 when I joined & still true.

Cut your garment according to your cloth.
 

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