Further problems for EC mainline

[TheBigD]

Isn't it about time EC started signing Peterborough-Melton-Loughborough-Erewash Valley-Sheffield-Doncaster as at least paths might be a little easier and it'd give them 2 diversion routes.

Back in 1993 (I think) over the May bank holiday BR did exactly that. An hourly HST service ran between Kings Cross and the north via that route (except it avoided Sheffield).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...When the diversions ran last year, I was surprised that despite local services along the GN/GE joint being cancelled to make way for the diverted EC trains, EC trains weren't even stopping at the more major stations on the line - eg Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln...

I stand to be corrected but during last October's diversions EMT ran the normal service on the Saturday afternoon with the exception of a Lincoln-Newark service, which was diverted from North Gate to Castle. The EMT Saturday service on the joint is pretty sparse, there's no train from Peterborough to Lincoln between 1240 and 1510 for example. The morning trains on the route prior to the diversions were replaced by buses due to signalling work at Sleaford.

There is no Sunday service on th4e joint line.

 

[David Dunning]

The website provides information for passengers, and it clearly has a range of information on it. The priority of course is to get those passengers already on the route moving, hence what is being done on the ground.

And what about passengers coming up from the south coast not knowing whats going on . The website saying avoid travel is not helpful when your in the middle of a Brighton to Scarborough run like my elderly friend was doing today. I am asked to go on line and see whats happening and you are right ....i see a range of information ....all of it conflicting lol .
Surely sorting that out is a priority But then , and forgive me as i mean it with a smile in a friendly pub chat sort of way Silentone ... but then that's the sort of sensible idea you get from the armchair experts.

 

[djh1986]

What time exactly did the wires came down?

I left Leeds for East Croydon on the 10.38 TPE to Selby to change onto the 11.02 HT service to London. Within five minutes we were told that the train would terminate at Doncaster, does anyone know why HT couldn't run the 180s via Lincoln? Would have helped the situation at Doncaster/Sheffield.

I think I was pretty unlucky with the timings, if I'd left it another half an hour then the news probably would have reached Leeds and I could've gone across to Manc for a VT down to London.

I ended up getting an a very overcrowded TPE to Sheffield to connect with the 12.27 to St Panc but it was absolutely rammed so I went to grab some lunch in Sheffield and got their in time for the 13.27 arriving in at 13.04. Managed to get a seat quite easily and it was only when the XC and TPE trains from Doncaster came in that the EM train became unbearably overcrowded. Well done to EM for declassifying the train (I was at the other end from first class though and it didn't help that end) and the staff didn't even bother with a ticket inspection which was fair enough in the circumstances.

Totally agree about XC behaving appalling not accepting EC tickets. Every train was overcrowded today, it's just typical of them. I'd have got on an XC train with an EC advance ticket if I had one and I think any inspector would have struggled to get any passengers to cough up any extra cash! (Not that an inspection would have been able to take place anyway with the overcrowding so it was a pretty pointless mean gesture that couldn't be policed).

 

[Ferret]

What time exactly did the wires came down?

I left Leeds for East Croydon on the 10.38 TPE to Selby to change onto the 11.02 HT service to London. Within five minutes we were told that the train would terminate at Doncaster, does anyone know why HT couldn't run the 180s via Lincoln? Would have helped the situation at Doncaster/Sheffield.

I think I was pretty unlucky with the timings, if I'd left it another half an hour then the news probably would have reached Leeds and I could've gone across to Manc for a VT down to London.

I ended up getting an a very overcrowded TPE to Sheffield to connect with the 12.27 to St Panc but it was absolutely rammed so I went to grab some lunch in Sheffield and got their in time for the 13.27 arriving in at 13.04. Managed to get a seat quite easily and it was only when the XC and TPE trains from Doncaster came in that the EM train became unbearably overcrowded. Well done to EM for declassifying the train (I was at the other end from first class though and it didn't help that end) and the staff didn't even bother with a ticket inspection which was fair enough in the circumstances.

Totally agree about XC behaving appalling not accepting EC tickets. Every train was overcrowded today, it's just typical of them. I'd have got on an XC train with an EC advance ticket if I had one and I think any inspector would have struggled to get any passengers to cough up any extra cash! (Not that an inspection would have been able to take place anyway with the overcrowding so it was a pretty pointless mean gesture that couldn't be policed).

XC did accept EC tickets...only turning people away when no more people could be carried on any specific train.

 

[TomJ93]

^ and filling a Voyager with passengers from 9 coach trains when it is already fairly full requires the talents of Paul Daniels

 

[David Dunning]

^ and filling a Voyager with passengers from 9 coach trains when it is already fairly full requires the talents of Paul Daniels

HA HA You're gonna like this ...not a lot

 

[djh1986]

XC did accept EC tickets...only turning people away when no more people could be carried on any specific train.

Apologies, I thought they were outright refusing EC advance tickets. My bad.

 

[Ferret]

I think the message was put on the XC website to discourage people. In reality, as many as possible were herded onto trains run by XC and EMT and if people were left behind, then so be it. Horrible way to run a railway though - of course, today XC's northeast service is reduced to hourly by the engineering work north of Swinton so that was an added factor in the chaos that ensued.

 

[TheBigD]

Apologies, I thought they were outright refusing EC advance tickets. My bad.

XC did indeed put the message out this afternoon as I posted earlier...

"...There are OLE problems on the ECML south of Grantham which has resulted in severe overcrowding on CrossCountry services with 1V64 leaving customers behind. As a result of this we are currently not accepting East Coast advance purchase tickets..."

 

[Ferret]

XC did indeed put the message out this afternoon as I posted earlier...

"...There are OLE problems on the ECML south of Grantham which has resulted in severe overcrowding on CrossCountry services with 1V64 leaving customers behind. As a result of this we are currently not accepting East Coast advance purchase tickets..."

I suspect this was very much aimed at East Coast as well, who seemed to think that the answer to the problem was to get everyone else to carry their pax for them and sort out all of their problems and washing their hands of the situation... Don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but the DCSM at Sheffield from EMT was getting all sorts of conflicting information and disinformation from East Coast and as a result had no idea what to advise the displaced passengers. Why is it beyond the wit of man for East Coast Control to page out an amended train plan so that the staff on the ground can act accordingly?

 

[fsmr]

Is this just not another example of how unreliable and unsuitable OLE is for this country (thinking of the push to electrify the Nottingham / Leics to Bedford section of the midland mainline) as opposed to building a new fleet of locos with KERS technology. It appears hardly a month goes by without some major issue on either the ECML or WCML. Are the cost savings when you allow for the capital costs and ongoing maintenance and outages really that better.

 

[Ferret]

FSMR - I was thinking the very same today! I came to the conclusion though that with rising oil prices, you're damned if you do electrify and maybe damned if you don't. What certainly is needed is a better contingency plan for when things do go down the swanny.

I'm afraid that traincrew route knowledge will have to be improved rather than the currently prevailing attitude of 'bollards to it, everything can stand until the line is open'.

 

[fsmr]

FSMR - I was thinking the very same today! I came to the conclusion though that with rising oil prices, you're damned if you do electrify and maybe damned if you don't. What certainly is needed is a better contingency plan for when things do go down the swanny.

I'm afraid that traincrew route knowledge will have to be improved rather than the currently prevailing attitude of 'bollards to it, everything can stand until the line is open'.

Living in In Oakham it is amazing how close EMT came to loosing their Leics Kettering diversion in the 80s i.e the Manton Corby diversion and there have been numerous occassions outside of planned posessions when they must have been very relieved it was signed for and available at short notice. Of course running scheduled trains albiet odd time of the day over it helps with the route knowledge.
I have never been a fan of electric, as i think you at least stand a fighting chance against the elements with well designed (i.e snow proof) diesels. If the cause was indeed a low tree branch, expect even more generous pruning back of the trackside vegitation as this little excersise will have cost quite a few thousands. Of course it doesnt show up now on the correct balance sheets as privatisation has clouded the whole issue.
Nige

 

[bengolding]

According to the LDB, the 13:30 Kings Cross to Inverness terminated at Edinburgh and the 14:30 to Aberdeen ran through but is some 3 hours late. I didn't realise the new EC timetable retained Peterborough stops on these services, thinking that the Scotlands were non-stop Kings Cross to York as is the case on weekdays.

 

[Bedpan]

Hope its all repaired by the morning, as St Pancras to Luton is closed all day tomorrow....why tomorrow, its the one Sunday in the year that the Hertfordfshire County Show is held in Redbourn and parking there is usually a nightmare.

And the FCC/EMT replacement bus service is totally inadequate...over 2 hours from St Pancras to Harpenden according to the timetable...if they run some buses direct to St Albans and then Luton, they must come through Harpenden so why not timetable them to stop there??? Another example of FCC demonstrating that they couldn't run a p*ss up in a brewery, although they displayed a fine example of that on Thursday evening when passengers were marooned in the tunnel between St Pancras and Kentish Town with no information supplied to passengers.

 

[Crossover]

From NRE Disruption:
"Services between Grantham and London Kings Cross have now finished for the day. Trains are expected to run normally from start of service on Sunday 29 May."

 

[WatcherZero]

Is this just not another example of how unreliable and unsuitable OLE is for this country (thinking of the push to electrify the Nottingham / Leics to Bedford section of the midland mainline) as opposed to building a new fleet of locos with KERS technology. It appears hardly a month goes by without some major issue on either the ECML or WCML. Are the cost savings when you allow for the capital costs and ongoing maintenance and outages really that better.

What like a Parry People Mover?

 

[radamfi]

Is this just not another example of how unreliable and unsuitable OLE is for this country

Are there statistics for how often overhead wires go down outside the UK compared to in the UK? If wires go down a lot less elsewhere then it may just be that wiring isn't being done properly.

 

[rmt-driver]

Can anyone help me.... yesterday I had to travel via Sheffield and EMT (I had forgot how slow and crap the MML was !!)

I was supposed to arrive into Kings X at 16.09... arrived after 17.30

Can I get a refund on my FHT Standard Open Single ??

 

[NSEFAN]

Is this just not another example of how unreliable and unsuitable OLE is for this country (thinking of the push to electrify the Nottingham / Leics to Bedford section of the midland mainline) as opposed to building a new fleet of locos with KERS technology. It appears hardly a month goes by without some major issue on either the ECML or WCML. Are the cost savings when you allow for the capital costs and ongoing maintenance and outages really that better.

The wires over the ECML were done on the cheap. If they had been done properly then this problem wouldn't be happening as much. Perhaps on this occasion it was inevitable, but the the damage might have been less crippling to the route. I get the impression that this does not happen quite as much on the WCML, although I have no figures to back that up. (I would happily be corrected on the matter!)

Modern electric trains can be more efficient than diesels, as long as they have regenerative brakes and fancy power management systems. I agree that there should be an alternative though, like having diesel locos on standby to perform drags over alternative routes. When compared to older electrics like 91s, diesel trains are probably cheaper to run right now. I'm sure that will change when oil gets even more expensive!

 

[TGV]

Is this just not another example of how unreliable and unsuitable OLE is for this country ....

I don't follow your logic. Why is OLE "unsuitable" for the UK?! That seems like a poorly thought statement to me. This particular stretch of OLE has indeed proven to be "unreliable", but we know why that is (unrealistic budgets for the job in the 1980's - mast spacing inadequate, poorly designed catenery system and too much reliance on head span). That doesn't mean that EVERY line with 25kV electrification is unsuitable for use.

Have a look at CTRL, or HS1 as it's now called. OLE done the proper way. Works fine in the UK. If we had caternery of that standard the length of the ECML, yes it would have cost much more to build, but in the long term, it would have possibly paid off to prevent things like this happening.

Simply dismissing 25kV OLE as unsuitable and unreliable would be a huge mistake when it is an international railway standard (particularly on high speed lines). 3rd rail has massive problems also as we saw when the snow fell these last couple of winters. Plus even in perfect conditions, it has speed limitations, poorer efficiency in transmission (more sub-stations), and it's considered higher risk due to the traction current being more easily accesible to people.

You mentioned KERS techonology - presumably a term you've got from watching F1. There are examples of this kind of rolling stock in use (PPM), but while this goes SOME way to improving the emissions (and hence meeting government CO2 targets), it still has limitations. for one - there are no high speed "KERS" or hybrid vehicles yet. It's largely an unknown quantity. So development of that will not come cheap. At least with OLE we have X number of years experience - we KNOW what the problems are.

I would caution against dismissing OLE because of problems on well known stretched of the ECML and WCML. It's known and proven technology that in these examples would benefit from an upgrade to bring up to current best standards.

 

[Welshman]

The wires over the ECML were done on the cheap. If they had been done properly then this problem wouldn't be happening as much. Perhaps on this occasion it was inevitable, but the the damage might have been less crippling to the route. I get the impression that this does not happen quite as much on the WCML, although I have no figures to back that up. (I would happily be corrected on the matter!)

You're right about it having been done "on the cheap"

Like you, I will be happily corrected, but isn't it something to do with using span wires rather than gantries? Span wires are perhaps cheaper initially, but in a dewirement, all the wires are more likely to be brought down, whereas with the more expensive gantries, as on the WCML, it is more likely only the wire the train is running under is affected.

But, as I've said, I would be happily corrected on this forum by someone with more expertised knowledge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ignore my amateurish efforts above.

TGV pipped me to the post with a far more technical answer.

 

[TGV]

You're right about it having been done "on the cheap"

Like you, I will be happily corrected, but isn't it something to do with using span wires rather than gantries? Span wires are perhaps cheaper initially, but in a dewirement, all the wires are more likely to be brought down, whereas with the more expensive gantries, as on the WCML, it is more likely only the wire the train is running under is affected.

But, as I've said, I would be happily corrected on this forum by someone with more expertised knowledge.

You are correct. This has happened in Huntingdon TWICE now where all four lines have been brought down by a single vehicle.

Headspan means you can wire up 4, 5 or even 6 lines by installing only 2 masts and stringing up what can often look like a spiders web of support cabling between the two with the catenery supports and registration arms bolted to it at the appropriate place.

Not only does it have limitations in this area, but when trains pass, the oscillations set up by the pantograph of one vehicle makes the contact wire and catenery of ALL other lines to vibrate (you can clearly see this). Now another train (or trains) pass and they can struggle to maintain decent pan head to contact wire pressure. You get increased arcing and hence pan-head wear.

EDIT: Photo attached of one such incident - all 4 lines closed due to dewirement at the front of the train in the photo.

 

[sidmouth]

What price the cost of emergency planning procedures. What was the cost of yesterday's disruption (Inc the cost of passengers' delay at say £5 per hour) set against EC ensuring their drivers are signed for the road via Lincoln and that the line via Spalding is operated on 2- shift. I am sure and cost saving undertaken by an accountant were more than obliterated by yesterday's true costs to society!

 

[Ferret]

What price the cost of emergency planning procedures. What was the cost of yesterday's disruption (Inc the cost of passengers' delay at say £5 per hour) set against EC ensuring their drivers are signed for the road via Lincoln and that the line via Spalding is operated on 2- shift. I am sure and cost saving undertaken by an accountant were more than obliterated by yesterday's true costs to society!

I really do despise the false economy that is taking routes off drivers/guards. I've lost count of the times I've been asked if I sign a particular route and said no so have had to stand and wait. It drives me mad!

 

[Derbyshire Gra]

Sidmouth is right in his thinking.

Travelling through Grantham yesterday, I witnessed the "apparent" unpreparedness of East Coast to deal with such a happening. Why is there no automatic contingency plan for such happenings? East Midlands Trains stepped up to the mark well carrying many passengers via Nottingham - ensuring platforms altered there to give easy cross platform access to the London services, and strengthening some of the services to and from Sheffield.

Surely there should be a "Plan B" at East Coast for each section of line, so that, for instance, when an event like yesterday happens, the first HSTs from either end go via the joint line then terminate at the far end to form shuttles between say Doncaster and Peterborough, with regular electric connections at either end. If that were to happen almost automatically by preplanning, then the full focus of attention can be given to recovering the trains and passengers trapped on section.

If such plans do exist and were implemented, they were not broadcast well to passengers, and the appearance on the ground was one of total confusion and make it up as you go.

 

[Aictos]

According to the LDB, the 13:30 Kings Cross to Inverness terminated at Edinburgh and the 14:30 to Aberdeen ran through but is some 3 hours late. I didn't realise the new EC timetable retained Peterborough stops on these services, thinking that the Scotlands were non-stop Kings Cross to York as is the case on weekdays.

Yesterday the Inverness service called additionally at Peterborough, it is usually booked to run fast between Kings Cross and York - of course this is no where fair on passengers from Peterborough and East Anglia now being forced to change at York rather then at Peterborough.

The problem with the joint line has done on for quite a while to be honest, back to GNER days. 2 Major problems.
1. Many East Coast Drivers don't sign it.
2. It is only open for a short period of time.

Back in BR days problem 2 didn't exist, the single shift working started in the early 1990's. I think that was 1992. So in BR days it was much easier as everything was HST anyway {for the majority of the period I remember diversions happening quickly} As it was one company you could get drivers that knew the route from more depots, now you would have to ask EMT. I am sure the joint line could handle to trains per hour along with the EMT local.

I think this problem won't really be sorted until the joint line upgrade is complete, what if this had happened on a Sunday you can't just drag a signaller out of bed. In fact I am sure tonight the line will need to close as the signallers hit their maximum working hours. It is a pity that the joint line can't be used more ofter but I don't think there is much point in sorting out problem 1 without problem 2 getting fixed! I also don't know how realisitic it is to use the 67s to drag the odd electric around the joint. Again sods law would state that when all the wires come down we have no HST to be found in the area!

It looks like it will be at least 5 years before the joint is resignalled so it looks like we probably have another 5 years of this. Busing? How many bus and coach companies have that many drivers just waiting for work at short notice on a bank holiday weekend?

EMT have an easier solution, just send around a line that is open 24h per day, because they know it can be used then it is worth having drivers trained for it. I am sure if the joint line was open the Lincoln HST would run via the joint line to keep the route knowledge upto date rather than via Newark as it does now. I am sure under BR the other option of running into St Pancras may have got utilised, but we are no longer a national network anymore in that respect.

This is indeed a big issue, ideally what ought to happen is for the line to be resignalled and transfer the signalling from Werrington Junction to Spalding and have it under Peterborough PSB's control and transfer the signalling from Spalding to Doncaster and have it under Doncaster PSB's control.

Yes this would mean closing the remaining signalboxes however the only other way would be to allow Lincoln to be manned 24/7 and be responsible for the whole line.

The other action that ought to be taken is for all TOCs to run a service in both directions least once a week on the route in order to retain route knowledge, Grand Central is very good in that it regularly has a booked service use the Hertford Loop once a week normally heading to Kings Cross which enables their traincrew to retain the route knowledge to use the line.

The services above don't need to stop anywhere but rather travel though non-stop.

Finally although there is no talk at the moment of the Joint Line being electrified, it really ought to be when it gets modernised as it means though electric services between Doncaster and Peterborough are available when the route via Grantham is not available.

 

[TGV]

Couldn't agree more. Regardless of any technical reasons for such a failure - and even the most robust OLE will eventually have a problem - there simply MUST be an improved system in place for when severe disruption happens.

Alternative routes should be defined for appropriate rolling stock, signallers ready with an emergency plan (as I'm sure they already have) and staff signed for it.

Stories of EC staff disappearing when things get difficult or ops controllers not picking up the phone.... I don't know how TRUE some of these stories are (exaggeration always happens when things get stressful or difficult), but clearly some form of communication improvement is needed both internally between staff departments and externally to passengers.

But all that should be second nature to running a railway. It's something I'm concerned is harder to co-ordinate with our fragmented privatised system. I'm not blaming this on privatisation of course (the heart of this problem happened under BR), but I can't help thinking the more entities involved, the harder it will be.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Normal working was restored at 08.26.

 

[Ferret]

Sidmouth is right in his thinking.

Travelling through Grantham yesterday, I witnessed the "apparent" unpreparedness of East Coast to deal with such a happening. Why is there no automatic contingency plan for such happenings? East Midlands Trains stepped up to the mark well carrying many passengers via Nottingham - ensuring platforms altered there to give easy cross platform access to the London services, and strengthening some of the services to and from Sheffield.

Surely there should be a "Plan B" at East Coast for each section of line, so that, for instance, when an event like yesterday happens, the first HSTs from either end go via the joint line then terminate at the far end to form shuttles between say Doncaster and Peterborough, with regular electric connections at either end. If that were to happen almost automatically by preplanning, then the full focus of attention can be given to recovering the trains and passengers trapped on section.

If such plans do exist and were implemented, they were not broadcast well to passengers, and the appearance on the ground was one of total confusion and make it up as you go.

Many TOCs have predetermined detailed contingency plans for line blockages - Virgin West Coast are one, XC another. Even if East Coast do not have that, it is completely unacceptable to not have sent out an amended trainplan to all that needed to know over 4 hours after the original incident had taken place. Just what on earth was going on in EC Control?