Fury amongst rail campaigners

[Mojo]

This has appeared in too many newspapers to list here, but I have copied from the ThisIsBristol.co.uk website. It's something I've known for a long time and myself and the local Conservatives have been measuring & comparing public transport provision in other English urban areas, but the local rags have only just picked up on it.

Fury erupted among rail campaigners after it emerged the Government is ploughing hundreds of millions of pounds into refurbishing Birmingham's main railway station - yet the West's crumbling stations will see precious little investment. West campaigners said the planned £598 million transformation of Birmingham New Street station was "yet another" example of the region's Cinderella railway losing out.

Almost £400m of the cash earmarked for Birmingham will come directly from central Government.

The Department for Transport (DfT) said while some funding has been set aside to improve rail services in the West, only a small amount was specifically earmarked for improving stations..

Peter Andrews, spokesman for Bath-based campaign group More Trains Less Strain (MTLS), said: "The Government is responsible for this whole mess and it sounds like they are just giving money to their friends."

Last month, commuters in the region signalled their displeasure by joining a fare strike organised by MTLS to highlight overcrowding, unreliability and price increases on trains run by First Great Western.

Mr Andrews said: "Something many people don't realise is that when the Government spends a lot of public money on the train service it is the private operators who reap the profits.

"The underlying problem is that there are too many people who are making too much profit.

"In our region, for example, First Great Western needs to make a profit, as do (infrastructure company) Network Rail and the banks who loan the railway carriages to the train companies."

Mr Andrews said until there was a coherent plan to provide affordable, reliable and punctual railway services, the plans to spend £598m in Birmingham would be a "very expensive sticking plaster".

Just weeks ago, news of 1,300 extra carriages announced by Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly failed to appease campaigners after it emerged only a small percentage would benefit West passengers.

Now, news of hundreds of millions of pounds of public money being pumped into the Birmingham New Street refurbishment comes as a further blow to smaller stations in the West that remain in desperate need of cash.

David Flint, of the Severn Tunnel Action Group, said: "The station we represent is disgusting. We have had some success recently in securing more trains and funding but there is still much to be done.

"We estimate the Severn Tunnel Junction Station needs about £4m to be spent on it and we will continue to work to get services and facilities improved."

He said the station had recently been given funding to make travel more accessible for disabled, elderly and parents with pushchairs.

A spokesman for the DfT said: "Our Rail White Paper last year promised to invest £150m to modernise 150 stations across the country. The South West is expected to benefit from this investment and the DfT's £370m Access for All scheme."

But Severn Tunnel Junction station is the only station in the Bristol area to have been selected for improvement through Access for All.

It's probably all down to local political will, sadly with a limited fund, the areas which shout and scream the loudest get most of it even if they might be less deserving because of weaker local economies or less traffic congestion.

 

[djw1981]

This has appeared in too many newspapers to list here, but I have copied from the ThisIsBristol.co.uk website. It's something I've known for a long time and myself and the local Conservatives have been measuring & comparing public transport provision in other English urban areas, but the local rags have only just picked up on it.



It's probably all down to local political will, sadly with a limited fund, the areas which shout and scream the loudest get most of it even if they might be less deserving because of weaker local economies or less traffic congestion.

I don;t know the region that well, but what is wrong with Severn Tunnel Jucntion station that it needs £4m which is a lot for any station - heck Edinburgh Waverley got 4 new platforms and the west end throat track and signalling redone for £100m

 

[Mojo]

Well a new platform at Bristol Parkway cost a rather expensive £3 Mill but that included new canopies, PIS and waiting rooms, but Severn Tunnel Jn doesn't have any canopies, and they say a new platform has been approved by NR. Quite why I am not sure, does anyone know why?

And I suppose improvements at Severn Tunnel Jn are likely to be better and come about quicker due to the support of the Welsh Assembly.

 

[Nym]

Am I the only one that read that as Furry amongst rail campaginers?

 

[adamp]

What about the North West?

 

[Nym]

What about any of the north?b

 

[O L Leigh]

Wherever the money was spent there would be people throwing their hands up in frustration and wanting to know why they aren't going to be seeing any of the benefits. I'm sure there is a need for the investment in the south-west in just the same way as there is a need for it everywhere else. Unfortunately, when the available pot of money is limited the investment needs to be targetted. So BNS gets it this time. Great. I'm sure Bristol's time will come.

Quite frankly, I don't give much credence to the various spoutings of the media or politicians when it comes to rail issues. Both of these particular groups are generally self-serving and are never telling you the entire story. Regardless, I wish you luck with your campaign. However, bear in mind that any successes you score will be on the basis of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

one TN

 

[David]

So BNS gets it this time.

I did have a mini rant about New Street and Wolverhampton getting money thrown at them here.

The main beneficaries of spending over the past few years has been Scotland (partly funded by the Scottish Government), WCML and the West Midlands, and London. What about the rest of the country?

 

[Metroland]

Well there is lots of areas that want better services. Look at Northern rail with it's dodgy sprinter and pacer services, or the overcrowding out of London.

The comparison with Birmingham New street is rather dumb in that article if I may say so. There is about 5 times more passengers using it, and it gets so overcrowded they have to close parts of it as crowd control. It's just a generally nasty station. That just isn't the case with Bristol Temple Meads. There are around 450 trains per day using Bristol TM compared to 1350 at New Street. Most of the New street approaches work to near capacity, which just isn't the case in the Bristol Area. There are problems around Parkway, but that's got resignalling/extra platforms. Between Chippenham and Bristol you have same really bad signal spacing, in some areas its 2 aspect! But that could be sorted at modest cost. The signalling is in much better condition around Bristol compared to Birmingham. Most of the problems are overcrowding in the peak, on 2/3 car sprinter trains and wouldn't take a lot of sorting out if the DfT allow some new coaches, would would have to sit around under utilised off peak.

What I do agree with, everyone wants their slice of profit with the fragmented railway, which is where most of the money goes.

 

[djw1981]

Leeds got a brand new station in 199x-2001 when the station and local area was remodelled. Sheffield has has a full station clean up and refurb.

DfT rail count trams as Rail, and Sheffield, Manchester and Nottingham got them, and extensions.

A lot of the WCML work was because WCRM was going to require the repositioning of platforms, fast/slow lines etc.

 

[Respite]

Firstly Birmingham New street should have the money, it's falling apart & is such a major hub of the area & beyond. The shopping centre above the station is sinking onto the platforms at quite an alarming rate....

But as with all things these days the money looks like it will be plowed into blinging the station up rather than any real change that we need. Plenty of coffee bars, sock shops, resturants but nothing that helps us do our jobs.

Ideally I would like to see a computer take over the signalling in Bham PSB, I'm thinking a ZX81 or spectrum 48k should do it, after all they can actually tell that the number "1" is before "2" or "5"............ Ok maybe an 8 year old child will suffice but they may suffer from the same problem as the signalman at new st do already..........."Ohhhhh red & silver pretty train, let me play with the red & silver train, I dont want to play with the other colour trains...."

8)

 

[Metroland]

Well Britain’s most overcrowded trains are:

1. 7.59am Durham to Newcastle 88% over capacity
2. 7.18am Cambridge to London Liverpool Street 85% overcapacity
3. 7.53am Eccleston Park to Liverpool Lime Street at 85% overcapacity
4. 5.21pm Cardiff to Maesteg, 78% overcapacity
5. 8.14am Humphrey Park to Manchester Oxford Road, 75% overcapacity
6. 8am Morpeth to Newcastle service, 58% overcapacity
7. 7.31am Barnsley to Leeds service, 57% overcapacity
8. 7.14am Sheffield to Leeds train, 53% overcapacity
9. 4.33pm Sutton to Luton service, 50% overcapacity
10. 7.26am Northampton to Birmingham New Street, 45% overcapacity.

I don’t see Bristol mentioned anywhere in that. Almost half the passengers on several routes into Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool and Cardiff are forced to stand for their entire journeys on 25-year-old two-carriage trains.

Bristol was going to get a £200 million tram system, but that was dropped.

 

[O L Leigh]

Ideally I would like to see a computer take over the signalling in Bham PSB

Noooooo!!!!!!!! We've got one of those at Liv St IECC and it's a right royal pain in the backside.

If you're booked to take a particular route out of the station but you can't get to it immediately because of the platform on which your train is standing, don't worry because it will put you on that route just as soon as it can. It doesn't matter that you will eventually be routed back onto the same piece of track you're currently on not half a mile further down the road, or that there isn't a single train ahead of you giving you a clear run, nor even that your Class 1 train will be held so that you will be passed by not one but two Class 2 services. If the computer says you should be on that route, that is the route you will find yourself on come hell or high water.

one TN

 

[Respite]

I was joking mate, I used to work Birmingham new st PSB back in the 90's for a while. Until I realised if I didnt get out soon I would leave in a coffin from the attitude in there.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well Britain’s most overcrowded trains are:

2. 7.18am Cambridge to London Liverpool Street 85% overcapacity

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

This train always seems to get featured, but it isn't actually as bad as it sounds. There were problems with the way in which the passenger numbers were collected and the overcrowding was calculated on this particular service which paints a much blacker picture than is the case. Basically, the GN route was shut so everyone was using the WA line instead resulting in higher than normal loadings. 'one' reacted by strengthening this service from it's normal 4 cars up to 8. However, the people collecting the figures failed to properly allow for this. They just counted the number of punters onboard that morning but then did their calculation based on the capacity that would normally have been available on that service, i.e. a 4 car train and not the 8 car that actually ran the service that morning. The result was that they calculated a vastly inflated overcrowding figure.

one TN

 

[Kneedown]

Well Britain’s most overcrowded trains are:

1. 7.59am Durham to Newcastle 88% over capacity
2. 7.18am Cambridge to London Liverpool Street 85% overcapacity
3. 7.53am Eccleston Park to Liverpool Lime Street at 85% overcapacity
4. 5.21pm Cardiff to Maesteg, 78% overcapacity
5. 8.14am Humphrey Park to Manchester Oxford Road, 75% overcapacity
6. 8am Morpeth to Newcastle service, 58% overcapacity
7. 7.31am Barnsley to Leeds service, 57% overcapacity
8. 7.14am Sheffield to Leeds train, 53% overcapacity
9. 4.33pm Sutton to Luton service, 50% overcapacity
10. 7.26am Northampton to Birmingham New Street, 45% overcapacity.

I don’t see Bristol mentioned anywhere in that.

I don't see the 15.44 Notts to Liverpool mentioned either, but try getting on it, especially on a Friday, let alone get a seat. It's way more than 50% overcrowded!

 

[Tom B]

Well Britain’s most overcrowded trains are:

1. 7.59am Durham to Newcastle 88% over capacity
2. 7.18am Cambridge to London Liverpool Street 85% overcapacity
3. 7.53am Eccleston Park to Liverpool Lime Street at 85% overcapacity
4. 5.21pm Cardiff to Maesteg, 78% overcapacity
5. 8.14am Humphrey Park to Manchester Oxford Road, 75% overcapacity
6. 8am Morpeth to Newcastle service, 58% overcapacity
7. 7.31am Barnsley to Leeds service, 57% overcapacity
8. 7.14am Sheffield to Leeds train, 53% overcapacity
9. 4.33pm Sutton to Luton service, 50% overcapacity
10. 7.26am Northampton to Birmingham New Street, 45% overcapacity.

I don’t see Bristol mentioned anywhere in that. Almost half the passengers on several routes into Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool and Cardiff are forced to stand for their entire journeys on 25-year-old two-carriage trains.

Bristol was going to get a £200 million tram system, but that was dropped.

What's interesting, if we believe these sadistics, is that very few are actually in the south east. Three, perhaps, of which one is a dodgy measurement.

Yet, whenever there's a media whinge, it's the poor south eastern city worker who's train into work in the rush hour is busy.

(Many such people could *probably* get a flexible working arrangement, so come in before the rush hour and go home before the p.m. peak - if they were female they would definitely get it through employer's fear of employment law but that's another matter).

Political bias, anyone?

 

[O L Leigh]

I think it has to be borne in mind that it also depends precisely where in each train's journey that the count was made and also that some trains that are routinely overcrowded may not have been surveyed at all. Just because the majority of services in this list are not in the south-east, it does not necessarily tell us anything about the state of services elsewhere (which, I should point out, is not the same as saying that things are only bad in the south-east and everyone else is just a whinger). Without knowing precisely what methodology was applied, we cannot know what the accuracy of these figures really are. Equally, we don't know what the local operating conditions were on the day of the survey and what affect this may have had on the results.

It's the typical case of only finding the evidence that you set out to look for and ignoring everything else. As I said before: "Lies, damn lies and statistics".

one TN

 

[Metroland]

Personally I have a theory that one of the reasons First Great Western gets so much bad press – and I am by no means saying the service is perfect – is because of the sort of people that live in it’s catchment area who have an awful lot of influence, especially in the media. In fact, half of them are the media! Nobody gives a stuff about Northern rail services, except perhaps around Leeds, home of the bank of England, despite having chronic overcrowding and some really bad services. Perhaps when the BBC moves to Manchester we might see another view. Some of the south snobbish bias is shown on these very forums, with some people moaning about 3 HSTs a day to Teeside and Wearside with a combined population of 1 million with a similar journey time to London as Weymouth. Yet the latter gets a 30 min service with most of the trains running ½ empty! And I’m speaking as a southerner that lives on that line!

 

[me123]

Thing is, how many services that people are citing here utilise all seats? In Scotland, there is an element of "Public Transport Snobbery" where a service appears overcrowded, but there are often more than enough seats.

 

[Metroland]

Not heard of that one before, but having travelled on some of those lines mentioned a lot, most of the problem is 2 car pacer/sprinter trains. Although even the electric services out of Leeds can get bad, and they tend to be much longer.

The 10 most overcrowded London commuter trains in 2005 have been named.

The busiest train, identified by once-a-year Department for Transport (DfT) counts, was the 0802 Cambridge to London Liverpool Street run by One.

It had 433 people on a service normally for 234 - but One said it was running a train twice its normal length on that day due to service disruption.

The DfT said investment in new trains and plans in new operating franchises aimed to tackle overcrowding.

The top 10 most overcrowded trains identified by the counts, the figures for which were obtained by the Evening Standard under the Freedom of Information Act, were:

* 1. 0802 Cambridge to London Liverpool St (One): 234 capacity; 433 passengers
* 2. 1633 Sutton to Luton (Thameslink): 412; 618
* 3. 0751 London Victoria to London Bridge (Southern): 635; 944
* 4. 1815 London King's Cross to Cambridge (WAGN): 494; 713
* 5. 0804 Isleworth to London Waterloo (South West Trains): 792; 1,138
* 6. 1806 London Paddington to Oxford (First Great Western Link): 270; 385
* 7. 0638 Margate to London Cannon Street (South Eastern Trains): 218; 310
* 8. 0642 Haslemere to Waterloo (South West Trains): 598; 845
* 9. 1750 Victoria to Rochester (South Eastern Trains): 494; 681
* 10. 0703 Weybridge to Waterloo (South West Trains): 792; 1,084

A One spokesman said it had run an eight-carriage service on the day the DfT conducted its count, but that the DfT had based its capacity figure on the scheduled four-carriage train.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4830370.stm

 

[djw1981]

The issue is the ridiculous obsession with 3+2 seats. on the 3 seats, you get person a next to the window, person b sits next to the aisle and no one will force their way in between, as that invades their space. 2+2 with more grab rails would achieve teh same seating area but with more standing area.

 

[Mojo]

It's all about the provision of service though - the number of people carried on the Bristol Crosscity line (before it was disbanded in December) was probably less than that carried on the Birmingham Cross City line, however could that be in part due to a number of factors: -
B'ham line passes through a greater urban area - and more people live there
B'ham tickets are cheaper (mostly) due to past PTE subsidies and the line covers a smaller distance so it's generally cheaper anyway
B'ham services are cheaper
B'ham stations are staffed and generally more attractive
Temple Meads is only suited for a small number of leisure travellers who want to do something like go shopping

But on the other hand: -
Traffic congestion according to official figures is worse in Greater Bristol
The local economy & productivity is stronger in Greater Bristol than Birmingham
Compared to the number of avaliable seats on services versus station usage, there are more users of local stations in the West

You've got to argue that it was well past its time BHM was updated and I think the money has been well spent. Temple Meads redevelopment has already started and there is a rather dubious looking sign outside the station saying "Plot 6. Temple Meads station, Bristol. All enquiries to xxx" which is all to do with what is going to change over the next few years.

Station improvements are what is needed in the area - hopefully if the ITA gets created we'll see that - I find it absurd that stations like Small Heath (Birmingham) are staffed from first train in the morning to last train at night when Portacabins posing as ticket offices which were only opened a few hours a day are being removed from West stations which are far busier. Filton Abbey Wood, which has well over 400,000 uses per year now has no ticket office, making it one of the busiest unstaffed stations in the country. I believe in station staffing very strongly and feel it makes stations a far more welcoming place, but why does this Postcode lottery carry on? But more importantly so are service improvements - people want to use the trains - I can find very few stations which have over 100k uses which only recieve 1tph most of the day.

As a side point, I refuse to accept that Severn Tunnel Jn is in "the Bristol area," and see any improvements there have very little relationship as to what people who live in Greater Bristol have campaigned for.

 

[AlexS]

Looking at Birmingham alone is a fallacy, since the West Midlands would appear to be the largest non London urban conurbation in England, containing several cities and major towns.

Anything to do with Birmingham could also be projected to Coventry, Solihull, Wolverhampton, Dudley, Walsall, Lichfield, Sutton Coldfield, Stourbridge, and if you believe the wallahs in Brum, Telford and Shrewsbury. All of which are large population centres.

Brummie New Street does and always will serve more trains per day than Bristol Temple Meads.

If you wish to demolish swathes of Bristol to build new railway lines, please feel free.

 

[djw1981]

It's all about the provision of service though - the number of people carried on the Bristol Crosscity line (before it was disbanded in December) was probably less than that carried on the Birmingham Cross City line, however could that be in part due to a number of factors: -
B'ham line passes through a greater urban area - and more people live there
B'ham tickets are cheaper (mostly) due to past PTE subsidies and the line covers a smaller distance so it's generally cheaper anyway
B'ham services are cheaper
B'ham stations are staffed and generally more attractive
Temple Meads is only suited for a small number of leisure travellers who want to do something like go shopping

But on the other hand: -
Traffic congestion according to official figures is worse in Greater Bristol
The local economy & productivity is stronger in Greater Bristol than Birmingham
Compared to the number of avaliable seats on services versus station usage, there are more users of local stations in the West

You've got to argue that it was well past its time BHM was updated and I think the money has been well spent. Temple Meads redevelopment has already started and there is a rather dubious looking sign outside the station saying "Plot 6. Temple Meads station, Bristol. All enquiries to xxx" which is all to do with what is going to change over the next few years.

Station improvements are what is needed in the area - hopefully if the ITA gets created we'll see that - I find it absurd that stations like Small Heath (Birmingham) are staffed from first train in the morning to last train at night when Portacabins posing as ticket offices which were only opened a few hours a day are being removed from West stations which are far busier. Filton Abbey Wood, which has well over 400,000 uses per year now has no ticket office, making it one of the busiest unstaffed stations in the country. I believe in station staffing very strongly and feel it makes stations a far more welcoming place, but why does this Postcode lottery carry on? But more importantly so are service improvements - people want to use the trains - I can find very few stations which have over 100k uses which only recieve 1tph most of the day.

As a side point, I refuse to accept that Severn Tunnel Jn is in "the Bristol area," and see any improvements there have very little relationship as to what people who live in Greater Bristol have campaigned for.

Station staffing is a TOC issue though. So the fact that LM have has had staffing levels built into their franchise (either by TOC or PTE) means they have to staff stations. For FGW it is not the same because DfT did noit build such requirements into the franchise, and with Bristol being a smaller metropolitan area, it has no PTE. [IIRC PTE's were used in places where a metropolitan area covered more than one local authority in 1974; 30 years on maybe that should be reviewed.]

The higher productivity in Bristol, and lower deprivation index, means that their council taxes are lower as a proportion of mean income, and they receive less social funding from HM Government. Thus it could be argued that in order to see improvements in transport infrastructure, they will have to increase council tax, especially if they need to cover the additional cost of a PTE.

The productivity argument runs both ways - if you have high productivity and generate a higher GDP, you will expect to pay more for services, than areas with a lower GDP. Equally, you expect a better standard of service in order to facilitate continued business investment and economic growth.

What are the views of the South West regional quango on overcrowding? I imagine such a beast to be primarily Lib Dem and Tory, except in the very urban / working class area of the SW, and as such may not be best placed to catch the ear of ministers.

 

[Z12XE]

no one will force their way in between, as that invades their space

You need to come and see peak time on the GEML then - with all 3 seats full and people in doorways

 

[djw1981]

See it can be full to standing up here and no one sits in the gap - invasion of personal space, obesity epidemic or the Bo pong, who knows.

Personally I;d rather stand than be wedged in a corner.

 

[P156KWJ]

I don't see the 15.44 Notts to Liverpool mentioned either, but try getting on it, especially on a Friday, let alone get a seat. It's way more than 50% overcrowded!

try getting a seat on ANY Liverpool - Nottingham - Norwich train, when Central trains had the service most trains were class 170s, usually 3 car, now it is solely 2 car 158s providing the service, except those very rare occasions where they find out how to couple two trains together! We've even had class 156s on there on occasions (would you like to sit on a scuzzy 156 from Norwich to Liverpool [about 6 hours]?)
I also find the East midlands area in general very poorly managed by the DafT, as they have announced we are getting a whopping 3 vehicles from northern by 2014. (And what is the point, we recently had to give up ALL our 158 centre cars to Northern! Sods law we'll probably get 142s for the citylink routes!!) I also find that many local stations are dirty, littered, vanalised, poorly signed, and used as loitering areas for yobs, and it's good enough the government grumbling about it, but Gordon Brown and the transport secretary and greedy stakeholders from the TOCs should get off their back sides and get some sort of cleanup operation, both for stations and rolling stock, which also includes cleaning up after themselves. The government privatised our railway, they should pick up the pieces, not the taxpayer.

RANT OVER!!!!!!!!:-x:-x

 

[me123]

The issue is the ridiculous obsession with 3+2 seats. on the 3 seats, you get person a next to the window, person b sits next to the aisle and no one will force their way in between, as that invades their space. 2+2 with more grab rails would achieve teh same seating area but with more standing area.

Exactly. In fact, you'd probably (in effect) get more seats in because you get more seats in place (providing you mix airline and table seating à la Sprinters and Turbostars) that are useable; 3+2 is really 2+2 with a space for oxygen, nitrogen and other gases.

I find 3+2 seating not bad on 334s and 318s actually (you can at least fit the people in, although it's not always comfortable depending on obesity etc.), but the 320s are downright stupid. I've never known anyone to fit in the middle seat, and I'm talking skinny people here! But this is my anti-320 rant again...

 

[djw1981]

IIRC 320 and 318 are the same width, so are the seats wider?

Tables on commuter stock are a waste of space if full size (ie Sprinter / Turbo) the smaller ones, as on 318 are better.