Future Electrification Schemes

[Class172]

Here is my version of OxtedL's electrification map. I have also added a dotted line that is for a new line/service that will be electrified (eg Stourbridge-Walsall)

EDIT: Whoops... I've just noticed I've missed out the whole of the Valley Lines - just assume they're orange!

 

[sprinterguy]

Would you have trains going to and from Leicester 24 hrs a day like we do with Bedford-StPancras/ Three Bridges

I haven't thought it through that thoroughly yet, I'm still speculating as to a possible day time service frequency (Half would terminate at Corby from the south I think to avoid causing capacity problems on the Leicester - Peterborough line): While it would be nice to have an overnight service from London that stretched as far out as Leicester, I think it would boil down to what increase in driver rosters would be required over the existing operation, in terms of finance and the number of night shift workers. Perhaps the night trains on Thameslink should be limited to the "core" section to Bedford, in the same way as TPEs' overnight trains only cover the core section over the Pennines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If things are bad now for lack of DMUs and capacity on the tracks, imagine if we didn't have the DMUs "spared" from the Oldham loop.

As a matter of interest, the DMU that used to run on the Oldham/Rochdale line before Pacer replacement are all now ensconced in the "Big scrapyard in the sky" and as such, are not able to be used in the present situation.

That being said, are you suggesting that Newton Heath have a cache of these units hidden away, as part of the National Railway Reserve?

 

[sprinterguy]

Just fancied a post as 00:48 is now 19 years since i was born!

Hate light rail on heavy rail routes, light rail deserves its own route not just cheapo on heavy rail. (maybe meadowhall on tram is okay behind centertainment)

Have a belated "Happy birthday"!

Light rail shouldn't replace heavy rail services outright, but IMO it can work well on an route that duplicates other heavy rail services over a large part of the journey, so that heavy rail services would still be able to cater for the longer point to point journeys, while the light rail operation would serve the smaller communities inbetween and link into the heavy rail services at strategic locatrions to provide longer distance journey opportunities, or a faster means of reaching key locations also covered by the light rail network.

For example, conversion of the Rose Hill Marple branch to Metrolink use with on-street running in places, linking into the proposed Ashton-under-Lyne Metrolink scheme, while the heavy rail services continue running to Marple and New Mills
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a matter of interest, the DMU that used to run on the Oldham/Rochdale line before Pacer replacement are all now ensconced in the "Big scrapyard in the sky" and as such, are not able to be used in the present situation.

That being said, are you suggesting that Newton Heath have a cache of these units hidden away, as part of the National Railway Reserve?

??

I may be missing something crucial that would set this post in context, but what tbtc is referring to is the units freed up by the conversion of the Oldham loop to Metrolink use from Pacer/Sprinter operation.

In response to tbtcs' post, unless I am mistaken the trains freed up from the Oldham loop conversion are doing no good for Northern, as the seven Pacers that Northern short-sightedly saw fit to withdraw from service following cessation of Oldham Loop operations have been transferred to FGW, so Northern are still in the same old muddle they were in before.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Have a belated "Happy birthday"!

Light rail shouldn't replace heavy rail services outright, but IMO it can work well on an route that duplicates other heavy rail services over a large part of the journey, so that heavy rail services would still be able to cater for the longer point to point journeys, while the light rail operation would serve the smaller communities inbetween and link into the heavy rail services at strategic locatrions to provide longer distance journey opportunities, or a faster means of reaching key locations also covered by the light rail network.

For example, conversion of the Rose Hill Marple branch to Metrolink use with on-street running in places, linking into the proposed Ashton-under-Lyne Metrolink scheme, while the heavy rail services continue running to Marple and New Mills

Not belated i only just got our bed still my birthday
I just like being up as it was 00:48....

Yeah i agree, i just mean if (i know they wont) closed hallam line between sheffield and barnsley i would hate it to become tram operated because that means it wont really get heavy rail again which really it needs.

Light rail is very good just not in the situation mentioned above

Im not sure about oldham loop though. undecided it didnt have a good rail service did it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Happy birthday

Cheers!

 

[Nym]

If things are bad now for lack of DMUs and capacity on the tracks, imagine if we didn't have the DMUs "spared" from the Oldham loop.

Thats two pacers luv, big gain!

What would have been chaper, thea mount of trams they have running the oldham loop ordered as 172s with signal upgrades and being or whats been done, would be intrested to see..

 

[LE Greys]

As a follow-on from the north-east Glasgow scheme

• Stirling-Perth-Dundee
• Haymarket-Dundee/Perth and Dunfermline loop, plus the line to Alloa
• Dundee-Dyce

Wiring the Forth and Tay bridges is going to be interesting - and probably unpopular. However, it needs doing. On the windier bits, it would need two-track gantries rather than conventional twin masts. I'm leaving the Highland line for now, there is not enough traffic at present, but it would be on the list if traffic ever increased.

 

[tbtc]

Thats two pacers luv, big gain!

I think it took more than a couple of DMUs to operate the Manchester - Oldham - Rochdale service, flower
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

??

I may be missing something crucial that would set this post in context, but what tbtc is referring to is the units freed up by the conversion of the Oldham loop to Metrolink use from Pacer/Sprinter operation.

In response to tbtcs' post, unless I am mistaken the trains freed up from the Oldham loop conversion are doing no good for Northern, as the seven Pacers that Northern short-sightedly saw fit to withdraw from service following cessation of Oldham Loop operations have been transferred to FGW, so Northern are still in the same old muddle they were in before.

Yeah, thats the point I was making.

So the seven Pacers that went to FGW are the ones meant to be coming back to Northern to free up the three 180s... am I right in thinking that FGW lost some 158s to FSR when they received these 142s? Or is my memory too hazy? (FSR also received some 158s from Northern that were meant to be coming back south when the Bathgate line was electrified, but are now staying in Scotland)

 

[Nym]

The 142s are now for capacity only

the 180s are being replaced with 7*150 units. (Dear god I hope they run as 6 car units on the 180 diagrams, it's needed)

4 156 units going to EMT to see 4 150 units, and some extras for capacity

And finally, the 142s for capacity gain in Northernland.

Speaking of witch, I wonder if NT is getting the remaining 150s from LM, or if the're still throwing their toys out the pram and want to keep them

 

[WatcherZero]

There were 5 Pacers freed up by the closure of the Oldham line, Dft was going to cascade them out of the region so GMPTE at the time paid for three to be used for strengthening out of its own coffers, eventually Dft relented and agreed to fund all 5 for strengthening local services.

 

[damo2804]

Extending the third rail from Basingstoke through to Salisbury and Exeter seems to be a bit of a no brainer to me...and it would be relatively cheap compared with the Paddington to Bristol electrification scheme.

 

[tbtc]

Extending the third rail from Basingstoke through to Salisbury and Exeter seems to be a bit of a no brainer to me...and it would be relatively cheap compared with the Paddington to Bristol electrification scheme.

I'd agree, especially due to the length of the 158/159s that could be freed up (e.g. a nine coach 159 on that route could mean Northern, EMT and FGW each get a three coach SuperSprinter), which shares the benefits around.

I've no problem with electrification of the few "Southern" routes that are still diesel if it releases decent numbers of DMUs to the rest of the country like this.

Plus, doing Basingstoke - Reading would improve the case for wiring Oxford - Coventry (and therefore allowing the Cross Country service from Bournemouth to Birmingham/ Manchester to be EMU operated)

 

[Class172]

And with Aynho Jct-Leamington now electrified as part of XC, the case for electrifying Chiltern increases

 

[tbtc]

And with Aynho Jct-Leamington now electrified as part of XC, the case for electrifying Chiltern increases

...thats the great thing about electrification, doing one bit encourages the case for the next, its like one massive puzzle. Its refreshing that we are discussing this kind of thing as being "realistic" (in the medium term at least), and that electrification is back on the agenda.

It just makes me realise how little we've had since British Rail (a few miles in Staffordshire, the few miles from Paddington to Heathrow, HS1 through London and Kent)...we've wasted a lot of time, but at least we now seem to be doing something about it. This could be the start of a new "era"

 

[Zoe]

Extending the third rail from Basingstoke through to Salisbury and Exeter seems to be a bit of a no brainer to me

I believe the plan is that if this route is ever electrified it will be 25 kV overhead and not third rail.

 

[LE Greys]

I believe the plan is that if this route is ever electrified it will be 25 kV overhead and not third rail.

Resulting in a small quantity of dual-system stock. What's more, on the Waterloo-Basingstoke-Eastleigh route, line straight enough to handle 125 mph in many places, they will be stuck with the slower and less-efficient system. Seems a bit pointless to have a small island of a different system down there. It's not as though an electrified Great Western can make use of it either, there will not be any connections other than the one at Exeter.

3rd rail to Salisbury will be essential, and I would expect an extension of some Basingstoke suburban services. Salisbury-Totton and the Chandler's Ford loop seem like natural fill-ins. Then 3rd rail to Exeter. Either that, or rip up the 3rd rail all the way back to Waterloo and down to Weymouth and replace that with wires. May as well do Portsmouth as well, and then the branches, and pretty soon we will have an overhead-electrified SWT.

 

[Nym]

Or just have some Dual Voltage Stock to run it and have both systems as Basingstoke where services will change over, with dual electrification to the relevant junctions.

Reading - Basingstoke - 25KV
Basingstoke - ?Sailbury - 25KV
Sailbury - Southampton - 750VDC

Onwards to Exeter and Bristol 25KV

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Chester to Warrington Bank Quay.
Chester to Runcorn (Via redoubled Halton Curve).
Chester to Crewe.
Ellesmere Port to Helsby 3rd Rail (If Shell allow).

Not that I'm biased towards Cheshire of course..

 

[158_Sprinter]

Chester to Warrington Bank Quay.
Chester to Runcorn (Via redoubled Halton Curve).
Chester to Crewe.
Ellesmere Port to Helsby 3rd Rail (If Shell allow).

Not that I'm biased towards Cheshire of course..

This. Just add in Crewe -Shrewsbury, Chester - Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury. The latter and the first would be useful for when WCML trains are diverted due to work on the line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Chester to Warrington Bank Quay.
Chester to Runcorn (Via redoubled Halton Curve).
Chester to Crewe.
Ellesmere Port to Helsby 3rd Rail (If Shell allow).

Not that I'm biased towards Cheshire of course..

How could have anyone have even thought of such a possibility, based on your carefully considered view of the North of England as a whole. I am sure that this was purely coincidental...

 

[Zoe]

Is it possible that in 20 - 30 years time, battery technology will have improved so that sections that will most likely never be electrified for example Plymouth to Penzance could use battery power off the wires?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

How could have anyone have even thought of such a possibility, based on your carefully considered view of the North of England as a whole. I am sure that this was purely coincidental...

The OP was asking for the consideration of other lines, not a regional assessment.

Cheshire is caught between Merseyside and Manchester. Two areas with great public transport services. Cheshire has virtually no cross county East-West routes by bus or train and limited access to Liverpool from anywhere except Chester. For me this stifles commuting options and freight movement options.
The simple reopening and/or electrification of routes opens up travel options across the county. Hence my admittedly biased selections for electrification projects..

 

[Woody]

I believe the plan is that if this route is ever electrified it will be 25 kV overhead and not third rail.

Read somewhere that no further 3rd rail electrification will be allowed under EU rules.Can any one enlighten me on this one or have I misunderstood what I read.

 

[starrymarkb]

wow.... ermm me thinks voyager bi mode to operate middlesbrough manchester airport service. then all your problems go away!

Wire hull. makes perfect sense, you free up DMU's from york to hull too.

Scarbrough as im sure ive mentioned before on various threads make york blackpool non stop to york from leeds and extend that to scarbrough.

or just another pantograph and bypass the transformer. Modern VVVF traction packs don't really care what power is fed into them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Read somewhere that no further 3rd rail electrification will be allowed under EU rules.Can any one enlighten me on this one or have I misunderstood what I read.

Nope, just no major extenstions. Infill is OK though.

25kV would be easier from a supply point of view due to limited power grid access on the Exeter route

 

[WatcherZero]

Doesnt look likely that further electrification of the Great Western along the Welsh coast will occur despite local campaigning, theyve just done another BCR calculation of it which came out at just 0.1! Mostly due to the windy(curvy) nature of the track which is a pain to tension.

 

[Cruithne3753]

Is it possible that in 20 - 30 years time, battery technology will have improved so that sections that will most likely never be electrified for example Plymouth to Penzance could use battery power off the wires?

I think hydrogen fuel cells might be a better bet.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

[*]Walsall-Rugeley Trent Valley: convert all Chase line services to EMU, allowing LM 170s to be cascaded elsewhere (whether in franchise or between franchises). This also provides a diversionary route for the WCML.

Yes, sell, sell, sell!

This way what the geniuses in Birmingham could do is get rid of the BHM - RTV trains and extend the Wolves to Walsall trains down so that they stop at Rugeley TV!

Everybody wins! And that way, we get rid of those hateful Turbostars!

[*]The London - Sunderland service now runs under the wires from Kings Cross to Eaglescliffe. Wiring the 30(something) miles up through Hartlepool to Wearside would free up the HST/180s used by GC.

Now this is a very good idea tbtc but then, what would GC use, in your honest opinion, as their traction?

 

[Zoe]

I think hydrogen fuel cells might be a better bet.

The issue with that though is that you need quite a bit of energy to get the hydrogen.

 

[LE Greys]

The issue with that though is that you need quite a bit of energy to get the hydrogen.

To do this, I would utilise old gas platforms. Mount some wind turbines on the top, pump seawater into a sump in the middle and extract the hydrogen by electrolysis, venting any unneeded oxygen into the atmosphere. Not sure about the other waste products, such as sodium and chlorine. Then use the existing natural gas pipelines to bring the hydrogen ashore and distribute it.

In the future, I would imagine that as part of the fusion power cycle. Extracting deuterium from seawater will require electrolysis. This will produce hydrogen and oxygen as a by-product.

 

[Boppawombat]

Back in the 1980s, several routes were planned for electrification as 'low cost schemes' with the minimum amount of fuss and bother. These were often very popular diversionary routes, of which several existed in the West Midlands - notably the line from Grand Junction just east of Birmingham via Saltley and Water Orton to Nuneaton (used by many West Coast diversions from Trent Valley/Stour Valley/B'ham-Rugby engineering closures), and the Cannock Chase route between Walsall and Rugeley Trent Valley. These routes would have been operated by the then class 86/87 electric locos of the day.

Obviously with many traction diagrams having changed dramatically over the last 25 odd years, these in-fill schemes are on hold indefinitely.

Likewise the stretch between Manchester and Bolton was for a long time an electrification candidate, and now it has finally come to fruition, with a start on it almost imminent.

I'd say that certain metropolitan areas such as Birmingham need an expansion of their current electric network - I know that the extension from Barnt Green to Bromsgrove [to create an additional Cross City branch] is now in the programme but no definite start date has been mooted so far. Likewise the Snow Hill and Moor Street suburban lines - especially the west-east Cross City from Stourbridge to Dorridge - long cited as another electrification possibility - would be, or should be considered.