Future for Class 180 Adelante fleets

[Wolfie]

Push pull stock? Get rid of the burny bits and have nice quiet coaches.

Hmmm.... Ignore the economics huh.... How many OA operators have gone loco hailed stock? Three guesses why....

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case if a TOC wants 5-car push pull stock there's some going spare at the moment. Chiltern are talking about them but haven't signed for them yet and may not do.

 

[liamf656]

Push pull stock? Get rid of the burny bits and have nice quiet coaches.

They wouldn't go for push-pull 180s when there's a fleet of homeless Mk5s already. And I'm sure forum members would rather we didn't have a repeat of the 442 debate!

 

[InTheEastMids]

They wouldn't go for push-pull 180s when there's a fleet of homeless Mk5s already. And I'm sure forum members would rather we didn't have a repeat of the 442 debate!

I already tried to do this, but sadly nobody took the bait!

Of course, could just pull the engines out of them and run them as push-pull stock with 68s. Like some sort of modern-day 442.

 

[43096]

Hmmm.... Ignore the economics huh.... How many OA operators have gone loco hailed stock? Three guesses why....

There was the original version of WSMR with 67s and Mark 3s.

And had it not been for Covid we’d have Grand Central running to Blackpool with Class 90s and Mark 4s.

 

[Tetragon213]

As another alternative, is it possible to use Adelante's to replace 80x's on the Oxford run? Or will that make them catch fire again?

 

[Zomboid]

It'd probably be possible. But why reintroduce diesel traction to Paddington?

 

[cactustwirly]

As another alternative, is it possible to use Adelante's to replace 80x's on the Oxford run? Or will that make them catch fire again?

Where would they be maintained?
The diagrams are complicated, so would need an entire recast so they were dedicated to Oxford, plus what benefits does it gain?

 

[Tetragon213]

It'd probably be possible. But why reintroduce diesel traction to Paddington?

Where would they be maintained?
The diagrams are complicated, so would need an entire recast so they were dedicated to Oxford, plus what benefits does it gain?

I was thinking maybe they could use it to free up some of the 80x's for GWML services. In the absence of GWEP2, it would at least free up or add to capacity on the Oxford route, which requires non-electric units owing to the lack of electrification north of Didcot.

Of course, the ideal answer is to build GWEP in full grumble grumble grumble

 

[Zomboid]

But isn't that the point of Bi-modes? Yes, Didcot to Oxford needs to be wired before the sun goes red giant on us, but at least the trains run 75% of their mileage on electric (obviously less than that if they're carrying on up the OWW), and Paddington is all the better for the fact that very few of the trains there are actually burning dinosaurs now.

180s wouldn't solve much, and have already proven not to be up to the job when they were newer and less clapped out.

 

[stevieinselby]

As another alternative, is it possible to use Adelante's to replace 80x's on the Oxford run? Or will that make them catch fire again?

If GWR wanted to take back units that they've already gotten rid of twice, Oxford would not be the route to put them on. For a start, it has a significant proportion of the route on electrified lines, including the run into London. Second, a chunk of that run is at 125mph, and they are more likely to go boom if they are worked hard. Third, the Oxford fasts also work through to Worcester and Hereford, so unless you were including the whole Cotswold service then you would be complicating the diagrams unnecessarily.

If GWR wanted them back, the shorts along Cornish mainline (anything running west of Exeter only) is the most obvious place for them – no electrified sections so you're not missing the bi-mode capability, and running along at a gentle jog should put less strain on the engines.

But, I emphasise, if. I think it's very unlikely.

 

[class ep-09]

If GWR wanted to take back units that they've already gotten rid of twice, Oxford would not be the route to put them on. For a start, it has a significant proportion of the route on electrified lines, including the run into London. Second, a chunk of that run is at 125mph, and they are more likely to go boom if they are worked hard. Third, the Oxford fasts also work through to Worcester and Hereford, so unless you were including the whole Cotswold service then you would be complicating the diagrams unnecessarily.

If GWR wanted them back, the shorts along Cornish mainline (anything running west of Exeter only) is the most obvious place for them – no electrified sections so you're not missing the bi-mode capability, and running along at a gentle jog should put less strain on the engines.

But, I emphasise, if. I think it's very unlikely.

That or Worcester to Bristol runs.

 

[Meerkat]

In any case if a TOC wants 5-car push pull stock there's some going spare at the moment. Chiltern are talking about them but haven't signed for them yet and may not do.

Would they have to stay as 5-car?

 

[D365]

I was thinking maybe they could use it to free up some of the 80x's for GWML services. In the absence of GWEP2, it would at least free up or add to capacity on the Oxford route, which requires non-electric units owing to the lack of electrification north of Didcot.

I was under the impression that GWR Class 175s would enable 80x units to be cascaded back to GWML services.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Most likely case is probably Network Rail I'd say. Why pay so much money for ETCS fitment to all Colas powercars for ECML track testing when you can just get a fleet of already-fitted DMUs. (Ok, I know it'd be costly to fit test equipment too!)
Whack a pantograph on the roof while you're at it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would they have to stay as 5-car?

Seeing as we're already deep in the weeds of speculation, no... but the case for dragging de-engined 180 cars behind a loco gets even dodgier once your formation is <5 cars.

 

[Zomboid]

Seeing as we're already deep in the weeds of speculation, no... but the case for dragging de-engined 180 cars behind a loco gets even dodgier once your formation is <5 cars.

Could be longer than 5, but I'm not sure what the point of the exercise would be. Buying new LHCS would probably be cheaper and result in a better product - and that's without considering the ex-TPE sets.

 

[Class15]

Given that the 458s were for a time by some way the most reliable train in the country, that statement doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Further, the 390s are around 8400 miles per failure, which is bluntly at best average. They’re not much more reliable than the 180s and significantly less reliable than the 22x fleets.

I would agree, I don’t know where this idea that the 390s are amazingly reliable comes from.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would agree, I don’t know where this idea that the 390s are amazingly reliable comes from.

Because (a) there are plenty of VT fanboys and girls who rave about Pendolinos and won't hear a bad word against them; and (b) because they get brought up as mitigation whenever someone mentions how disastrous everything else that Alstom produced in the late 1990s was. If you're offered a choice of three Lada Rivas and two of them are burnt out wrecks, you'll pick the other one in spite of it still being a terrible car.

 

[bramling]

Because (a) there are plenty of VT fanboys and girls who rave about Pendolinos and won't hear a bad word against them; and (b) because they get brought up as mitigation whenever someone mentions how disastrous everything else that Alstom produced in the late 1990s was. If you're offered a choice of three Lada Rivas and two of them are burnt out wrecks, you'll pick the other one in spite of it still being a terrible car.

One point to make in respect of the above, Alstom’s 95 Tube stock has tended to be pretty reliable. Notwithstanding the performance of the various mainline fleets built in the same era, there has been little wrong with the 95s.

 

[Wolfie]

One point to make in respect of the above, Alstom’s 95 Tube stock has tended to be pretty reliable. Notwithstanding the performance of the various mainline fleets built in the same era, there has been little wrong with the 95s.

Interesting. How do the 96s compare to the 95s reliability-wise?

 

[amahy]

Just a thought, could 180s work on the Manchester Airport - Windermere/Barrow runs? Could accelerate journey times on the WCML sections, and free up 195s to operate less major lines. Also, when I have travelled on this route, a 6 car 195 has been quiet, whereas a 3 car has been overloaded, so a 5 car 180 could be about right. Northern has hired in 180s in the past on Blackpool runs, pre electrification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, when I have travelled on this route, a 6 car 195 has been quiet, whereas a 3 car has been overloaded

Given that Northern have 2 and 3-car 195s, if that bothers them they can easily resolve it by being able to form any length between 2 and 6. The 6 car formations are needed for busy trains south of Preston - perhaps the one you were on was quiet but that diagram probably did a peak service earlier or later.

 

[amahy]

Given that Northern have 2 and 3-car 195s, if that bothers them they can easily resolve it by being able to form any length between 2 and 6. The 6 car formations are needed for busy trains south of Preston - perhaps the one you were on was quiet but that diagram probably did a peak service earlier or later.

This is true. These services are also very busy in peak summer especially.

In my experience, the 2 car 195s seem to be slightly biased towards the Yorkshire side of the Pennines, although this shouldn’t be too hard to change as they are all officially based at Newton Heath.

 

[duffield]

Apologies if this has already been discussed on this thread, I couldn't find anything with search.

Given the repeated delays to the introduction of the new class 810s for EMR, it's looking at least possible that some of the class 222s may be off to Scotrail before the 810s are in service - the current assertion is that the four 7-coach 222s will be gone in December, leaving a potential hole in the EMR fleet.

Rather than service cuts or the use of totally unsuitable non-intercity stock, is it at least possible that a few 180s could go back to EMR for a (hopefully) short period as a stopgap measure? It seems somewhat plausible, given they've run on the MML relatively recently.

Or is there some show-stopper reason why this can't possibly happen?

 

[357]

Or is there some show-stopper reason why this can't possibly happen?

I'm sure people can find a reason - likely something that can be blamed on drivers such as needing training to drive these units

 

[duffield]

I'm sure people can find a reason - likely something that can be blamed on drivers such as needing training to drive these units

I wonder if the drivers who are still with EMR and drove the 180s last time would just need refresher courses or is it so long ago they'd need full training the same as those who'd never driven them? And would the 180s themselves need re-gauging for the MML due to the passage of time? And how long all that would take?

(Anyhow I expect we'll just get shafted, the 222s will start going off to Scotland with no replacements, and we'll get a reduced "emergency timetable" with hideous overcrowding. )

 

[skyhigh]

I wonder if the drivers who are still with EMR and drove the 180s last time would just need refresher courses or is it so long ago they'd need full training the same as those who'd never driven them?

It'll be 2 years in May since they went off lease. It would be a full traction course.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think maybe the most likely outcome for the future of 180s if they aren’t scrapped would be Open Access operators? As it seems most Open Access applications propose using 22x which there won’t be enough of to go around if the 222s go to Scotland!

 

[357]

I wonder if the drivers who are still with EMR and drove the 180s last time would just need refresher courses or is it so long ago they'd need full training the same as those who'd never driven them? And would the 180s themselves need re-gauging for the MML due to the passage of time? And how long all that would take?

It can be done very quickly if you look at how fast GC got the 221s into service - but Open Access tend to be able to do things more efficiently.