Future, increased usage of the 'old road' out of Sheffield

[Philip]

Currently the 'old road' between Sheffield and Chesterfield via Beighton only has goods, diversions and route-retention purpose services using it. However, could two trains per hour that currently run via Dore instead run via Beighton, throughout the day?

It would release a good amount of capacity through Dore Junction, possibly enough to introduce a 4th service from the Hope Valley. I'm guessing the 'old road' route is a bit longer than via Dore, but if the EMR Liverpool-Nottingham service was routed this way (via Woodhouse to Beighton) then some of that extra journey time would be reduced by not having to reverse at Sheffield. There would also still be a good number of Sheffield-Chesterfield services via Dore for passengers who wish to use the faster route, even if having to change at Sheffield.

The slower of the two London services could also use this route; there will be three Sheffield-London services before long so one of them could go the longer way round and call at Meadowhall and Rotherham before heading south to Chesterfield, providing these stations with a new London service in the process.

 

[Harpers Tate]

There is "talk" of resurrecting service on this route with re-instatement of certain stations - likely a local rather than long-distance pattern - as part of that overdue "undoing "Beeching" thing. Now, as to whether that would actually serve Midland or instead call at a resurrected form of Victoria is still moot. Some have speculated that there will be pathing issues at Nunnery Junct. if any significant increase in use is made, and, if true, given the twin-track width tunnel bore out of Sheffield at the north, that would be problematic at best to resolve with extra tracks. It may have to be done with some (more?) bi-directional signalling but I don't claim any in-depth knowledge of how much that might alleviate things. Capacity made yet more problematic if/when Northern reinstate the pre-Covid pattern of 2x per hour each way on the Worksop (etc.) route. Certainly at some point in the fairly recent past, when a line blockage south of Sheffield sent many (or all?) long-distance services to/from the south this way, 1/hour Gainsborough stoppers were cancelled - precisely because of Nunnery capacity. Hence the suggestion that Victoria might be the Sheffield call for anything new/extra.

Diverting existing "stoppers" this way would remove the current Dronfield calls and one presumes they would have to be replaced. And I'm guessing the long-distance operators would not wish to (nor should they, really) fill that gap.

 

[6Gman]

Currently the 'old road' between Sheffield and Chesterfield via Beighton only has goods, diversions and route-retention purpose services using it. However, could two trains per hour that currently run via Dore instead run via Beighton, throughout the day?

It would release a good amount of capacity through Dore Junction, possibly enough to introduce a 4th service from the Hope Valley. I'm guessing the 'old road' route is a bit longer than via Dore, but if the EMR Liverpool-Nottingham service was routed this way (via Woodhouse to Beighton) then some of that extra journey time would be reduced by not having to reverse at Sheffield. There would also still be a good number of Sheffield-Chesterfield services via Dore for passengers who wish to use the faster route, even if having to change at Sheffield.

The slower of the two London services could also use this route; there will be three Sheffield-London services before long so one of them could go the longer way round and call at Meadowhall and Rotherham before heading south to Chesterfield, providing these stations with a new London service in the process.

I admire your enthusiasm for coming up with ideas but this seems another example of a solution in search of a problem.

Using the Old Road would extend journey times, I suspect by significantly more than any saving by not reversing. The only conflicting move through Dore Junction it appears to prevent is the westbound train (Dronfield-Sheffield) blocking any Sheffield-Hope Valley move but introduces new conflict at Nunnery and at Chesterfield.

On your final suggestion is that even workable? My map may be out of date but as far as I can see Meadowhall to the Old Road requires a reversal at either Masborough Junction or Sheffield Midland, and there does not seem to be any access at all from Rotherham Central to the Old Road other than by reversal at Midland? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I admire your enthusiasm for coming up with ideas but this seems another example of a solution in search of a problem.

Using the Old Road would extend journey times, I suspect by significantly more than any saving by not reversing. The only conflicting move through Dore Junction it appears to prevent is the westbound train (Dronfield-Sheffield) blocking any Sheffield-Hope Valley move but introduces new conflict at Nunnery and at Chesterfield.

On your final suggestion is that even workable? My map may be out of date but as far as I can see Meadowhall to the Old Road requires a reversal at either Masborough Junction or Sheffield Midland, and there does not seem to be any access at all from Rotherham Central to the Old Road other than by reversal at Midland? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong! Well not really. It would be possible to go from Rotherham Central to the Old Road with a reversal at Aldwarke Junction. Far better to spend millions and reopen the direct route around the Woodburn curve.

 

[6Gman]

You are wrong! Well not really. It would be possible to go from Rotherham Central to the Old Road with a reversal at Aldwarke Junction. Far better to spend millions and reopen the direct route around the Woodburn curve.

Good point. I hadn't thought of going even further north! And Aldwarke had fallen off the edge of my map!

More seriously, if there's call for Rotherham and Meadowhall to have a London service just start back from Sheffield . . .

 

[zwk500]

North end of Sheffield to Nunnery Jn is essentially full. 1tph might squeeze in but then you're into what I call "Jurassic Park" territory (you can do it, but should you?).

Also, if you were wanting a Sheffield-London train to call at Meadowhall or Rotherham, you'd do so as a stop on the way into Sheffield and run via Dore Jns.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Looking at one of the few EM London services pathed that way (the 0751 Sheff-London), it’s given 20 mins between Sheffield and Chesterfield, versus 11 mins for the 0837 to London.

 

[Chester1]

North end of Sheffield to Nunnery Jn is essentially full. 1tph might squeeze in but then you're into what I call "Jurassic Park" territory (you can do it, but should you?).

Also, if you were wanting a Sheffield-London train to call at Meadowhall or Rotherham, you'd do so as a stop on the way into Sheffield and run via Dore Jns.

1tph would be fine. The main driver for a reopening would be politics. Its a practical option for reopening stations in the North.

 

[zwk500]

1tph would be fine. The main driver for a reopening would be politics. Its a practical option for reopening stations in the North.

You're missing the point where I say you might get 1tph in the timetable, but the service won't be reliable. Delays would quickly stack up the moment anything is even a minute or so late.

 

[Philip]

Looking at one of the few EM London services pathed that way (the 0751 Sheff-London), it’s given 20 mins between Sheffield and Chesterfield, versus 11 mins for the 0837 to London.

07:51 Sheffield to London is a rather late train for diverting for route retention purposes, is this the only reason it goes this way or is it because of a lack of paths through Dore at this time?

 

[Chester1]

You're missing the point where I say you might get 1tph in the timetable, but the service won't be reliable. Delays would quickly stack up the moment anything is even a minute or so late.

Since when has that stopped the DfT? Look at the Ordsall Chord. My view is that if there is sufficient political support to reopen stations then we should do it and deal with the problems caused at a later date. We have a rare window when there is real political support for reopening freight lines to passenger services and reopen closed stations. I admit there are better projects that are much further developed.

 

[zwk500]

Since when has that stopped the DfT? Look at the Ordsall Chord. My view is that if there is sufficient political support to reopen stations then we should do it and deal with the problems caused at a later date. We have a rare window when there is real political support for reopening freight lines to passenger services and reopen closed stations. I admit there are better projects that are much further developed.

The old road runs quite close to the Tram out to Crystal Peaks. This is quite different to other proposals to reopen stations. And if I'm travelling from Birmingham to Leeds I'd be rather miffed to get delayed at Sheffield because of a 1tph local service barely anybody is on. Extending the tram to Renishaw would be a more effective spend of money. The Old Road is very useful for keeping freight out of Sheffield station.
It's different at Marchwood, Okehampton, Ashington or Grain because at 3 of them there isn't a local tram or light rail and for the Ashington/Northumberland line the metro runs out just as the local service would start so heavy rail national network trains make sense.