Future of 22x Units

[whhistle]

A bit premature maybe but with new stock coming to the MML route during the next franchise, and a likely bid for Voyager replacement for the Cross Country franchise, what will become of the 22x units?

I can see Grand Central perhaps taking some.
Maybe we'll see more on the Norwich to Liverpool route (even if it is split).

 

[Whattraintoday]

Given their woes with 180s and the cost of 802s I agree that GC would probably be all over any Voyagers coming off-lease (if they survive until then).

Could Northern use any on Connect routes instead of 158s? I don't know enough about route clearances and gauging to know if they'd work.

 

[47802]

What I very much doubt Voyagers will be going anywhere from XC, plus this is just going to turn into the same thread as using HST's on XC.

 

[RichJF]

South Western to replace 159s?

Long shot, but maybe Scotrail when the HST programme doesn't fully materialise?

A good fit may be the current 175 routes that are overcrowded.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The timing of the various franchise bids/awards (West Coast, East Midlands, XC) means there is no simple cascade that can be planned.
The XC direct award has a possible 1-year extension into 2020 which might change things if invoked by DfT.
It's up to the bidders/ROSCOs to come up with decent solutions however each competition turns out.
None of the other potential franchises (eg TPE, Northern, W&B) have any scope to change their plans.
Open access can do what they like (if they can find the cash).

 

[Tempest3K]

Alliance might be interested in 221's with reinstated tilt if Blackpool-London ever gets off the ground?

 

[mushroomchow]

I imagine EMT will hold onto the Meridians - it's one hell of a stretched fleet and they're more than sufficient for the routes they operate. The Bi-Modes will replace the HSTs as and when they are ordered - and that's more out of necessity than choice due to their age and non-compliance with RVAR, since they're still performing reliably and have the capability to run to the 2019 timetable.

As an aside, I can see whoever the next franchise holder is going for Bombardier's new offering given it's supposed to offer superior performance on diesel and the ability to maintain a relatively homogenised fleet out of Derby.

 

[gingertom]

South Western to replace 159s?

Long shot, but maybe Scotrail when the HST programme doesn't fully materialise?

A good fit may be the current 175 routes that are overcrowded.

been said elsewhere on the forum but the tender invitation for the Scotrail franchise specifically excluded Voyagers for the InterCity offerings. I can visualise the use of MK4s once LNER start to run their 801 Azumas. Somebody "in the know" has been told there's a relatively simple (=cheap & quick) mod to sort out the ETH incompatibility. We shall see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

been said elsewhere on the forum but the tender invitation for the Scotrail franchise specifically excluded Voyagers for the InterCity offerings. I can visualise the use of MK4s once LNER start to run their 801 Azumas. Somebody "in the know" has been told there's a relatively simple (=cheap & quick) mod to sort out the ETH incompatibility. We shall see.

4-car sets would probably provide about the right capacity for the North Wales Coast services, but CAF stock has already been ordered.

 

[Suraggu]

Given their woes with 180s and the cost of 802s I agree that GC would probably be all over any Voyagers coming off-lease (if they survive until then).

Could Northern use any on Connect routes instead of 158s? I don't know enough about route clearances and gauging to know if they'd work.

Given Arriva are in the open access passenger operating sector to make money, they can easily pull the plug on the operation if things continue to go south.

 

[1e10]

Given their woes with 180s and the cost of 802s I agree that GC would probably be all over any Voyagers coming off-lease (if they survive until then).

The Voyagers have plenty of life in them being only 20 years old now and a fairly reliable history of operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given Arriva are in the open access passenger operating sector to make money, they can easily pull the plug on the operation if things continue to go south.

I give it a year at most unless there's a major miracle with the 180s or they manage to obtain other stock (68 + Mk4 perhaps). It must be losing money hand over foot.

 

[Whattraintoday]

The Voyagers have plenty of life in them being only 20 years old now and a fairly reliable history of operation.

Sorry, slightly ambiguous language there (that Suraggu understood the way I meant it) - I meant if GC survive until then.

 

[krus_aragon]

A good fit may be the current 175 routes that are overcrowded.

The 175s are all being replaced with new-build Civity-based units by the new franchisee. They're expected to go off-lease in 2022.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Scrap the Voyagers....disgusting, uncomfortable, smelly trains IMO

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Scrap the Voyagers....disgusting, uncomfortable, smelly trains IMO

Providing excellent service between London and Chester/North Wales for which no other solution (tilting/125mph) currently exists to deliver the same journey time.

 

[nat67]

A bit premature maybe but with new stock coming to the MML route during the next franchise, and a likely bid for Voyager replacement for the Cross Country franchise, what will become of the 22x units?

I can see Grand Central perhaps taking some.
Maybe we'll see more on the Norwich to Liverpool route (even if it is split).

(S)CRAP! I hope.

 

[Suraggu]

I give it a year at most unless there's a major miracle with the 180s or they manage to obtain other stock (68 + Mk4 perhaps). It must be losing money hand over foot.

Class 68's are not rated for 125mph. I cant see Arriva investing in Bi Mode Hitachi or Bombardier products with an operating finish date of 2026 at present.

 

[gingertom]

Class 68's are not rated for 125mph. I cant see Arriva investing in Bi Mode Hitachi or Bombardier products with an operating finish date of 2026 at present.

The class 68 is based on Vossloh (now Stadler)'s Eurolight, which has a 125mph option. The UK hasn't taken any 125mph versions but is there a good reason we couldn't? If so can they be simply (=cheaply!) modified to run at the higher speed? This could solve quite a few headaches. No doubt create a few too.

 

[43096]

Scrap the Voyagers....disgusting, uncomfortable, smelly trains IMO

And an inefficient use of internal space. Actually, make that an abysmal interior layout.

Anyone suggesting using them in place of 159s out of Waterloo needs their head testing - look at the number of seats per vehicle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I said on the other thread they were a worthwhile experiment - the first go at a 125mph underfloor engined DEMU.

Some things were a success - for instance the driveline is highly reliable, the windows are large, the aircon is generally effective and reliable.

Some things were an abject failure - inefficient use of space means seats are tightly packed yet seat numbers are quite low; electronic systems like seat reservations utterly unreliable; 3 large toilets unnecessary and often unreliable; toilet plumbing/ventilation not adequate; overhead luggage racks too small and too high up; tilt profile gains little in terms of running time but makes for a cramped width.

Some things need adding for the modern day - for instance gap-bridgers and level boarding/low floor, as well as pantograph and transformer for use under the wires. (Remember when they were built people thought diesel was the future and dewiring might be seriously considered).

Take those lessons, bin them and go build something that fixes them all.

 

[A0]

And an inefficient use of internal space. Actually, make that an abysmal interior layout.

Anyone suggesting using them in place of 159s out of Waterloo needs their head testing - look at the number of seats per vehicle.

As I pointed out yesterday - the reason for the "inefficient" interior space is caused by losing about 1/3rd of the driving cars due to crash test regulations which prevent passenger accommodation being up to the cab threshold.

It doesn't affect 100 mph stock - which is why 180s are less space efficient than 175s despite the fact they are similar designs.

 

[A0]

; tilt profile gains little in terms of running time but makes for a cramped width.

But was necessary for their use on the WCML where otherwise they'd be getting in the way of the Pendos.

And anyone who doubts that need only to look at the difference there used to be when the Pretendolino was out - that was limited to Birmingham turns and always ran late.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The class 68 is based on Vossloh (now Stadler)'s Eurolight, which has a 125mph option. The UK hasn't taken any 125mph versions but is there a good reason we couldn't? If so can they be simply (=cheaply!) modified to run at the higher speed? This could solve quite a few headaches. No doubt create a few too.

The access charges for a 125mph diesel loco would be high, maybe prohibitive.
Class 67 was nominally 125mph capable but never ran at that speed in normal traffic.
Just because a manufacturer says it's an option doesn't mean it will work in UK conditions.
Where do Stadler (or any) diesel locos operate at 200km/h? Nowhere I suspect.

 

[xc170]

Scrap the Voyagers....disgusting, uncomfortable, smelly trains IMO

Well that didn't take long...

 

[D9009Spotter]

The class 68 is based on Vossloh (now Stadler)'s Eurolight, which has a 125mph option. The UK hasn't taken any 125mph versions but is there a good reason we couldn't? If so can they be simply (=cheaply!) modified to run at the higher speed? This could solve quite a few headaches. No doubt create a few too.

A few years back you may remember what was a somewhat last minute rush for UK spec diesel mixed traffic locomotives. This was due to the EU emissions regulations changing and all ordered locomotives at the time, DRS 68, Colas 70 and GBRF 66, were the last locos ordered to that spec. I've heard that these manufacturers have stated fitting these new engines to new build UK design would be difficult at best? Open to correction here as well but for this reason I don't see the 125mph Class 68 variant taking off any time soon.

I'm behind the use of Voyagers on the ECML with GC all the way. It makes sense imo. Should enough come off lease, it'll allow GC to run all their services with, potentially, increased capacity (8/10 car instead of 5). It's also basically a tried and tested product. Hull trains used the Meridians on their services for a period in the 2000s and to my knowledge they have the same engines as the Voyager units.

All above open to correction and opinions

 

[43096]

As I pointed out yesterday - the reason for the "inefficient" interior space is caused by losing about 1/3rd of the driving cars due to crash test regulations which prevent passenger accommodation being up to the cab threshold.

It doesn't affect 100 mph stock - which is why 180s are less space efficient than 175s despite the fact they are similar designs.

That's only part of it.

Even the middle cars are a grossly inefficient use of space - they seat 66. That's 10 less than the same length Mark 3 trailer standard. That's because of things like too many large toilets and poor use of space. They are just a really poor design all round. if the next XC franchise sees them replaced by something longer and better, that can only be an improvement - send the Voyagers on a one-way trip to the scrapyard.

 

[TheGrew]

I think the Voyagers could live on but in light of the crash regs for 125mph I would propose reforming them into larger groups like the 8 cars (or more if possible) some of the 222s were originally shipped in. With an internal refit to high density seating layout I think they could be better units more akin to diesel pendos.

 

[driver_m]

Usual guff on here about the 22x series, so let's go back to the OP's original point. How long are they leased out for to their respective TOC's? (Basically asking could another TOc do what happened to TPE when they lost those 170s?) Can we please try to avoid the usual rubbish about them? Yes I drive them and have just had to put up with an unreliable one, but at least try to be objective please!!!

 

[mmh]

Seats in intermediate coaches with accessible toilets:

Voyager: 66
HST (east coast): 62
Mk 4 (east coast): 68
Pendolino: 62

Yeah they have big toilets, but all accessible toilets are big. Nothing remarkably space inefficient about the design itself.