Future of 22x Units

[JamesT]

I know this is the speculative section, but re-engineering Voyagers? Really?
Any new engine would have to meet the current emissions standards which the existing ones don’t have to, which makes finding one that would fit difficult. Coupled with that is the ban on diesel only trains in 2040, so it’s not as if a new engine would give a longer life. By that point they’ll be 35-40 years old which is a decent run for most rolling stock. There’s still plenty of places that need self powered long distance rolling stock for the foreseeable future so they’re not going to go in the bin immediately.

 

[greatvoyager]

I know this is the speculative section, but re-engineering Voyagers? Really?
Any new engine would have to meet the current emissions standards which the existing ones don’t have to, which makes finding one that would fit difficult. Coupled with that is the ban on diesel only trains in 2040, so it’s not as if a new engine would give a longer life. By that point they’ll be 35-40 years old which is a decent run for most rolling stock. There’s still plenty of places that need self powered long distance rolling stock for the foreseeable future so they’re not going to go in the bin immediately.

It's not as if we've seen that before...

 

[greatvoyager]

Yes. I remember suggesting that to them right back in July 2014 and XC had no plans to refurbish the Voyager fleet. I can just imagine now: the walls painted white and the seats dark brown or the same seats as the XC HST's.

A customer information system like in the middle of the XC Mark 3's on the Voyagers would go very nice .

It would be nice to see an interior of a voyager that didn't just remind me of Virgin Trains. Regardless of why they didn't refurbish them, I have to say seeing a voyager with new carpets and burgundy seats would be great.

 

[Anonymous10]

It's not as if we've seen that before...

Hopefully they will be given to another operator when they are done tfw northern Scot rail any would gladly take them

 

[greatvoyager]

Hopefully they will be given to another operator when they are done tfw northern Scot rail any would gladly take them

I see all 22x units going to XC, staying there until 2035ish, by which time they will be life expired and then probably withdrawn. The problem is many of the routes on local operators will be affected by the fact that voyagers require more dwell time at stations, whereas units with larger doors towards the middle of the train, such as 170s or 185s, are better at coping with the commuters.

 

[Anonymous10]

I see all 22x units going to XC, staying there until 2035ish, by which time they will be life expired and then probably withdrawn. The problem is many of the routes on local operators will be affected by the fact that voyagers require more dwell time at stations, whereas units with larger doors towards the middle of the train, such as 170s or 185s, are better at coping with the commuters.

Granted I meant if they left earlier but most regional operators have long routes too

 

[greatvoyager]

Granted I meant if they left earlier but most regional operators have long routes too

True, but I'm really not convinced that 22x units would work on slower long distance services with more stops.

 

[Anonymous10]

True, but I'm really not convinced that 22x units would work on slower long distance services with more stops.

It would be useful on sat Milford/Swansea to Manchester and Cardiff to Holly head examples no doubt they could open a different route or Northern would likely have a similar

 

[greatvoyager]

It would be useful on sat Milford/Swansea to Manchester and Cardiff to Holly head examples no doubt they could open a different route or Northern would likely have a similar

Maybe, but considering how much new stock Northern and TfW are receiving I wonder what the demand for 22x units would be.

 

[Anonymous10]

Maybe, but considering how much new stock Northern and TfW are receiving I wonder what the demand for 22x units would be.

Granted and xc do need new stock and I'm of the opinion some 170 hauled services should be 22x

 

[greatvoyager]

Granted and xc do need new stock and I'm of the opinion some 170 hauled services should be 22x

Maybe, it will be interesting to see.

 

[krus_aragon]

Maybe, but considering how much new stock Northern and TfW are receiving I wonder what the demand for 22x units would be.

TfW have got enough stock on order with their total fleet replacement that there isn't really a role for a squadron of Voyagers on top.

Northern, on the other hand, still have eighty-odd 150s that are starting to look long in the tooth, and their new-build DMUs are generally regarded as being too short and too few for the job.

My opinion is that there is an even better place for them (XC), but I don't think Northern is beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[greatvoyager]

TfW have got enough stock on order with their total fleet replacement that there isn't really a role for a squadron of Voyagers on top.

Northern, on the other hand, still have eighty-odd 150s that are starting to look long in the tooth, and their new-build DMUs are generally regarded as being too short and too few for the job.

My opinion is that there is an even better place for them (XC), but I don't think Northern is beyond the realms of possibility.

Either way, I don't think the 22x units are going anywhere anytime soon, unless there is a complete fleet replacement on XC.

 

[VT 390]

I don't think they should ever go to Northern as I think they are the wrong type of stock for the services Northern operates with end doors and not the best seating layout. I do think that Northern should have better stock than trains like the 150's so perhaps if XC did get all the 22X trains the 170's could then go to Northern but 22X's may not be best for Leicester and Nottingham services although I think this would be better than sending the 22X's to Northern.

 

[greatvoyager]

I don't think they should ever go to Northern as I think they are the wrong type of stock for the services Northern operates with end doors and not the best seating layout. I do think that Northern should have better stock than trains like the 150's so perhaps if XC did get all the 22X trains the 170's could then go to Northern but 22X's may not be best for Leicester and Nottingham services although I think this would be better than sending the 22X's to Northern.

That has more logic.

 

[Anonymous10]

Maybe, it will be interesting to see.

Cardiff to Nottingham in my opinion is more a express like 158 or 175 than a 170 job

 

[VT 390]

Cardiff to Nottingham in my opinion is more a express like 158 or 175 than a 170 job

I agree and think that this route would be ideal for 22X trains, I would like to see this service operated by 22X trains and sped up north of Birmingham.

 

[Anonymous10]

I agree and think that this route would be ideal for 22X trains, I would like to see this service operated by 22X trains and sped up north of Birmingham.

It's a service I'll be using having friends up there but feel it's being given a train not so well suited

 

[greatvoyager]

I agree and think that this route would be ideal for 22X trains, I would like to see this service operated by 22X trains and sped up north of Birmingham.

It really would make a big difference.

 

[Anonymous10]

It really would make a big difference.

Which services would benefit jw

 

[greatvoyager]

Cardiff to Nottingham in my opinion is more a express like 158 or 175 than a 170 job

22x units could work.

 

[greatvoyager]

Which services would benefit jw

Cardiff to Nottingham.

 

[Anonymous10]

Cardiff to Nottingham.

Yh I was wondering if any others

 

[greatvoyager]

Yh I was wondering if any others

Maybe Birmingham to Leicester too, but not Stansted as they are too long for the platform.

 

[Jozhua]

I know this is the speculative section, but re-engineering Voyagers? Really?
Any new engine would have to meet the current emissions standards which the existing ones don’t have to, which makes finding one that would fit difficult. Coupled with that is the ban on diesel only trains in 2040, so it’s not as if a new engine would give a longer life. By that point they’ll be 35-40 years old which is a decent run for most rolling stock. There’s still plenty of places that need self powered long distance rolling stock for the foreseeable future so they’re not going to go in the bin immediately.

Ban on diesel only trains in 2040? What a load of hot air lol.

Unless electrification is taken seriously, diesel ain't going anywhere in the next 20 years. The idea better batteries will save us is lunacy. Especially considering trains cover 1000's of miles per day, which will offset the efficiency of steel on steel. Anyway, that's probably a discussion for another thread.

I think what was implied is they would be re-engined around now, rather than in 2030-2040 kind of era? HST's were re-engined at around 30 years old though, so there probably isn't much of a precedent for it being done this early on.

 

[greatvoyager]

I think what was implied is they would be re-engined around now, rather than in 2030-2040 kind of era? HST's were re-engined at around 30 years old though, so there probably isn't much of a precedent for it being done this early on.

That was what I thought.

 

[JamesT]

Ban on diesel only trains in 2040? What a load of hot air lol.

Unless electrification is taken seriously, diesel ain't going anywhere in the next 20 years. The idea better batteries will save us is lunacy. Especially considering trains cover 1000's of miles per day, which will offset the efficiency of steel on steel. Anyway, that's probably a discussion for another thread.

I think what was implied is they would be re-engined around now, rather than in 2030-2040 kind of era? HST's were re-engined at around 30 years old though, so there probably isn't much of a precedent for it being done this early on.

Politicians are good at producing hot air, but until someone says otherwise, a ban on diesel only trains in 2040 is government policy.

I’m not suggesting the Voyagers are going in the bin now, but that anything done to them has a fairly limited shelf life. One reason why you might consider a major upgrade like this is to stave off the replacement date, but if you can’t use them past the deadline then that’s not going to help.

Yes, people are suggesting re-engining them now, but with what? Comparable trains like the 175/180/185 use the same QSK19 engine, 195s use something smaller and less powerful so that doesn’t look suitable, and the 800s have something that’s too big to fit under a 22x. The HSTs had replacements in the VP185 and the MTU that had clear benefits in terms of economy and emissions. Is there something out there that could do the job, consume less, and emit less? I’d have thought the Rosco would be jumping at the chance, they get to look green and can probably charge the TOC more in leasing fees as the TOC would then save on their fuel costs.

That they haven’t suggests there’s no chance and the future is for the 22xs to be run as they are until their end of days when they can be replaced with a new build of something more efficient (probably bimode).

 

[greatvoyager]

Politicians are good at producing hot air, but until someone says otherwise, a ban on diesel only trains in 2040 is government policy.

I’m not suggesting the Voyagers are going in the bin now, but that anything done to them has a fairly limited shelf life. One reason why you might consider a major upgrade like this is to stave off the replacement date, but if you can’t use them past the deadline then that’s not going to help.

Yes, people are suggesting re-engining them now, but with what? Comparable trains like the 175/180/185 use the same QSK19 engine, 195s use something smaller and less powerful so that doesn’t look suitable, and the 800s have something that’s too big to fit under a 22x. The HSTs had replacements in the VP185 and the MTU that had clear benefits in terms of economy and emissions. Is there something out there that could do the job, consume less, and emit less? I’d have thought the Rosco would be jumping at the chance, they get to look green and can probably charge the TOC more in leasing fees as the TOC would then save on their fuel costs.

That they haven’t suggests there’s no chance and the future is for the 22xs to be run as they are until their end of days when they can be replaced with a new build of something more efficient (probably bimode).

I think anything is possible but whether it happens is a different story.

 

[krus_aragon]

I don't think they should ever go to Northern as I think they are the wrong type of stock for the services Northern operates with end doors and not the best seating layout. I do think that Northern should have better stock than trains like the 150's so perhaps if XC did get all the 22X trains the 170's could then go to Northern but 22X's may not be best for Leicester and Nottingham services although I think this would be better than sending the 22X's to Northern.

I agree that 22x wouldn't be a natural fit for Northern, but neither were the 180s they ended up with for a while. Hopefully there'll be a better solution.

 

[anamyd]

Comparable trains like the 175/180/185 use the same QSK19 engine

175s use the Cummins N14, a smaller engine comparable to the Civity/Turbostar MTUs