• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Future of Class 379

Status
Not open for further replies.

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
Yes they would. And they have made a different decision.

379s are for scrap in due course.

That appears to be the DfT decision. Nothing seems to be changing.

The fact units are off to Worksop should tell y’all that the writing is on the wall.
If they are going to Harry Needle, then yes the writing is on the wall. Unless, they are going to Worksop for refurbishment work in some form?

If that is true (and i have no reason other than incredulity) then it proves that DfT should not be in total charge of rail.

The most obvious result would be for DfT to "bankroll" by some means the fitting of ETCS to the 379s then diagram them to GN work, releasing 387s for cascade. Obviously DfT wont do this directly so perhaps there is brinkmanship at play. Will the Rosco really send 12 year old EMUs for scrap ? If nowhere else they should equipped for EWR which should be electrified - with maybe electrification of part of the Chiltern network.
Another option would be trans Pennine operations such as Northern between York - Leeds - Huddersfield and Manchester once OLE is completed

So many uses for nearly new PRM 25kV EMUs
The problem with both EWR and York - Leeds - Huddersfield and Manchester is that it is more likely to be either a class 323 or class 331 used on these routes, being three coach trains. So if class 379's where used you would have to be scrapping a coach out of each class 379 unit.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

43102EMR

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2021
Messages
1,255
Location
UK
Yes they would. And they have made a different decision.

379s are for scrap in due course.

That appears to be the DfT decision. Nothing seems to be changing.

The fact units are off to Worksop should tell y’all that the writing is on the wall.
I may sound like a broken record saying this, but do you have a magic crystal ball that sees into the future? Wait and see what happens before confirming “this is indeed their fate” without credible sources…
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
878
I may sound like a broken record saying this, but do you have a magic crystal ball that sees into the future? Wait and see what happens before confirming “this is indeed their fate” without credible sources…
They’ve been out of use over a year now. Two units moving to cold storage.

Do you think any ‘credible source’ is going to go public with such a decision? Binning 10 year old modern EMUs is a controversial decision. They’ll slowly rot away and be past the point of no return when they get dumped.

You’ll remember no doubt the 83ts that was dumped around the tube network because it was too ‘new’ to scrap. When they did go in the bin they were less new and completely dead.
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,485
The second is wrong on both sides: rail users are on average net contributors to the exchequer, many having well paid jobs paying much income tax; and lots of money is spent on motoring not by the DfT.

The figures don't support you.

This article from 2012 showed that to be a net contributor to the Exchequer you had to be earning almost £40k


That £39k of 2011 is the equivalent of £57k today

The average salary in the UK is about £38k.

Pre Covid the high number of London commuters would have meant more of those would have been using the train, but with commuting patterns changed since Covud and the move to leisure travel, this won't be the case.

Commuters paid high prices, leisure travellers tend not to. So if you try to shift people out of cars and onto trains you need to have price as a factor and low price = high subsidy. Unless you propose to increase motoring costs still further which will be unpopular when we have a "cost of living crisis" and will lead to the claims of people (like essential workers) beimg "priced off the roads". That's before you address the drop in Treasury revenue if people stop using cars.
 

43102EMR

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2021
Messages
1,255
Location
UK
They’ve been out of use over a year now. Two units moving to cold storage.

Do you think any ‘credible source’ is going to go public with such a decision? Binning 10 year old modern EMUs is a controversial decision. They’ll slowly rot away and be past the point of no return when they get dumped.

You’ll remember no doubt the 83ts that was dumped around the tube network because it was too ‘new’ to scrap. When they did go in the bin they were less new and completely dead.
Today’s move was cancelled - inbound loco didn’t arrive from Leicester and the path is still runs as required on RTT.

The 379s have been in storage for around 8-9 months now, and in other cases of units being scrapped, they’ve been stored for several years, most of which still are.

I’m not saying they will be used again, nor am I denying they’ll go for scrap; all I’m saying is nothing is set in stone yet regarding their future.

Plus such a thing would be very well publicised - certain rail journos would be rushing to get a story like that out as soon as.
 

QwertyAfro

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2018
Messages
7
Has there been any logical thinking for the swap of GWRs 387s of 33 for a better priced tender of 30 379s which is how many units they now need with that new tender agreement. Best that someone like GWR utilises AC electrostars and then all Dual 387s except HEX units going to GTR for all this other speculation or plans for what there was for the 379s? Of course new paint/vinyl and interior refit to them to fit into GWR but if a good deal can be done for the 379s don't see why not to GWR as they did a few months back put a new tender bid for AC 110mph units (4/8/12 working) for 30 of them which there are 30 379s or as I have seen other people allude to the 350/2 whenever they get released.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,888
Has there been any logical thinking for the swap of GWRs 387s of 33 for a better priced tender of 30 379s which is how many units they now need with that new tender agreement. Best that someone like GWR utilises AC electrostars and then all Dual 387s except HEX units going to GTR for all this other speculation or plans for what there was for the 379s?
No. It doesn't appear that anything is happening other than the 387s staying at GWR.

Of course new paint/vinyl and interior refit to them to fit into GWR but if a good deal can be done for the 379s don't see why not to GWR as they did a few months back put a new tender bid for AC 110mph units (4/8/12 working) for 30 of them which there are 30 379s or as I have seen other people allude to the 350/2 whenever they get released.
The tender process was soon completed. It is suggested that the outcome is that they are simply keeping the 387s they have.

I think you are falling into the trap of thinking that GTR are looking to make service enhancements or someone is going to refit the 379s which seems to be a recurring theme in this thread.
 

WizCastro197

Established Member
Joined
12 May 2022
Messages
1,453
Location
Reigate
I may sound like a broken record saying this, but do you have a magic crystal ball that sees into the future? Wait and see what happens before confirming “this is indeed their fate” without credible sources…
And what do you suspect will happen. Scrap is likely the most likely option. Who else wants them?

No money for modifications that some members believe there to be.

This isn't directed at you particularly: Current GTR services work fine with stock now, most cancellations have nothing to do with stock and more with train crew. Honestly GTR don't need to make any enhancements. They'd probably mess it up anyway if they tried. Stick with what works I think is key for this situation.

The suggestion wasn't for the 379s to go to Southeastern, but rather for the 379s to displace other trains (e.g. 387s) which could go to Southeastern.

After all if the DfT is in total charge now, presumably they would be able to make such a decision.
My quotation wasn't directed at you. Sorry!

I was aware you did say about an internal cascade, I was more referring to those in the Southeastern fleet replacement thread who said that 379s could go to Southeastern which wouldn't work.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
2,312
Location
belfast
Has there been any logical thinking for the swap of GWRs 387s of 33 for a better priced tender of 30 379s which is how many units they now need with that new tender agreement. Best that someone like GWR utilises AC electrostars and then all Dual 387s except HEX units going to GTR for all this other speculation or plans for what there was for the 379s? Of course new paint/vinyl and interior refit to them to fit into GWR but if a good deal can be done for the 379s don't see why not to GWR as they did a few months back put a new tender bid for AC 110mph units (4/8/12 working) for 30 of them which there are 30 379s or as I have seen other people allude to the 350/2 whenever they get released.
My understanding of the consensus on the forum was that the reason for the GWR tender was simply to get a better deal on the lease for the 387s. I don't know whether they succeeded, but it doesn't seem like the 379s going to GWR was ever actually likely
 

WizCastro197

Established Member
Joined
12 May 2022
Messages
1,453
Location
Reigate
My understanding of the consensus on the forum was that the reason for the GWR tender was simply to get a better deal on the lease for the 387s. I don't know whether they succeeded, but it doesn't seem like the 379s going to GWR was ever actually likely
Don't 379s have higher leasing costs than 387 anyway? Wasn't this a key reason why they were retired in the first place?
 

43102EMR

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2021
Messages
1,255
Location
UK
And what do you suspect will happen. Scrap is likely the most likely option. Who else wants them?

No money for modifications that some members believe there to be.

This isn't directed at you particularly: Current GTR services work fine with stock now, most cancellations have nothing to do with stock and more with train crew. Honestly GTR don't need to make any enhancements. They'd probably mess it up anyway if they tried. Stick with what works I think is key for this situation.
My opinion is they won’t end up with GTR actually, considering I know they were meant to get them but the DfT pulled the plug on cost grounds.

All I’m saying is let’s not jump to conclusions; things change rapidly with situations such as this, so saying they’re guaranteed for scrap is rather premature.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,224
Don't 379s have higher leasing costs than 387 anyway? Wasn't this a key reason why they were retired in the first place?

They did, until the lease ran out. Now they are an expensive asset sat on Akiem’s balance sheet, and they will be actively looking to lease them out, which means they will need to charge a price that the market will bear. At the moment, that price is ‘not much’.
 

Calum1

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2018
Messages
17
Why not send them to Scotland. With electrification ongoing and the class 320/318 only having about 5 years left would be a decent place for them.
 

WizCastro197

Established Member
Joined
12 May 2022
Messages
1,453
Location
Reigate
They did, until the lease ran out. Now they are an expensive asset sat on Akiem’s balance sheet, and they will be actively looking to lease them out, which means they will need to charge a price that the market will bear. At the moment, that price is ‘not much’.
Ah Alright, Thank you for informing me, I wasn't aware of this.

Why not send them to Scotland. With electrification ongoing and the class 320/318 only having about 5 years left would be a decent place for them.
Right now, does Scotland need them or want them though? No point having them if they aren't required, just adds unnecessary leasing and operating costs.
 
Last edited:

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,888
Why not send them to Scotland. With electrification ongoing and the class 320/318 only having about 5 years left would be a decent place for them.
There are other plans for 320/318 replacement and the relevant network runs 3 and 6 car trains.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
2,312
Location
belfast
Exactly, Scotland is looking to buy new trains, both the replace old EMUs and battery-powered options to make use of their new discontinous electrification
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
878
Current GTR services work fine with stock now, most cancellations have nothing to do with stock and more with train crew. Honestly GTR don't need to make any enhancements. They'd probably mess it up anyway if they tried. Stick with what works I think is key for this situation.

The West London Line is horrendously overcrowded and does need something doing about it. There are some enhancements that could be made. But there’s just no appetite to do them. I’m also inclined to agree they’d mess it up!
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,344
They did, until the lease ran out. Now they are an expensive asset sat on Akiem’s balance sheet, and they will be actively looking to lease them out, which means they will need to charge a price that the market will bear. At the moment, that price is ‘not much’.
Given the risk around the 379s was known when Akiem acquired them, it was likely factored in to the price paid for acquiring Macquari’s European rail business.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,224
Given the risk around the 379s was known when Akiem acquired them, it was likely factored in to the price paid for acquiring Macquari’s European rail business.

indeed, although there would have been some ‘hope’ value on the basis that they would get them leased fairly quickly.
 

778

Member
Joined
4 May 2020
Messages
349
Location
Hemel Hempstead
If they are to be scrapped, would they be contenders for the shortest service life of any train in the UK since the end of steam? I know some of the standard steam locomotives had service lives of less than 10 years. Maybe some of the first generation DMUs were in service for less time eg Transpenine DMUs and Derby Leightweights?

I know it won't happen, but would the C2C lines out of Fenchurch Street been a good homne for them?
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,888
I know it won't happen, but would the C2C lines out of Fenchurch Street been a good homne for them?
No. Not unless there is a plan to scrap some 357s instead. c2c have 12 720s on order.
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
Is it possible that the class 379 units going to Worksop, are going there to have ETCS fitted?
 

43102EMR

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2021
Messages
1,255
Location
UK
No. Not unless there is a plan to scrap some 357s instead. c2c have 12 720s on order.
No plans to scrap the 357s - they’re only being supplemented by them on peak hour services, replacing the 387s they lost to Great Northern.
 

WizCastro197

Established Member
Joined
12 May 2022
Messages
1,453
Location
Reigate
Just a small question since I am actually not that sure, but where actually are the 379's being stored? Warm/Cold Storage?

This thread keeps coming back to the same starting point unfortunately, there isn't any where for them to go...

I am sure nobody really wants them to go to scrap but it seems rather inevitable now

If they are to be scrapped, would they be contenders for the shortest service life of any train in the UK since the end of steam? I know some of the standard steam locomotives had service lives of less than 10 years. Maybe some of the first generation DMUs were in service for less time eg Transpenine DMUs and Derby Leightweights?

I know it won't happen, but would the C2C lines out of Fenchurch Street been a good homne for them?
Nah It will probably be 769 at this rate! They haven't entered service yet.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,020
Location
East Anglia
Just a small question since I am actually not that sure, but where actually are the 379's being stored? Warm/Cold Storage?

This thread keeps coming back to the same starting point unfortunately, there isn't any where for them to go...


Nah It will probably be 769 at this rate! They haven't entered service yet.
Cambridge had two, Crown Point four & Harwich to Dovercourt & Parkeston the rest.
 

43102EMR

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2021
Messages
1,255
Location
UK
You’re welcome. There where some at Ilford for a while but I’m sure they moved on as space is precious.
A number have been moved to Aldersbrook CS (I believe around 4-6?) - one’s at Orient Way, and the remainder at the locations you mentioned. A large chunk are currently at Ilford though for maintenance etc.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,020
Location
East Anglia
A number have been moved to Aldersbrook CS (I believe around 4-6?) - one’s at Orient Way, and the remainder at the locations you mentioned. A large chunk are currently at Ilford though for maintenance etc.
Never really looked at Aldersbrook yesterday when driving passed. I’m sure the all 4 are back in the Wensum.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top