Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Topological]

There seem to be some unit balancing issues as well, given that three arrivals at Leeds are after the last northbound has left. Presumably there is a reason for an 20:06 arrival, but 19:49 departure north?

Other than that there are 2 departures from Leeds which balance with the 2 that arrive at Leeds late the night before.

At the other end, 2 trains arrive in Carlisle after the last departure south, but there is only 1 departure south in the morning before the first northbound arrives.

Is there sufficient interworking for this not to matter?

 

[D6130]

The Branchline Society's Branchline News no. 1438 states that overnight freight may return to the Settle & Carlisle after the closure of Dalston Oil Terminal in around 18 months time. This is in connection with fuel to Prestwick airport. If the line re-opens North of Blea Moor overnight, do we think any other freight may take that route, or will there be any effect on passenger trains, such as the current Leeds-Ribblehead evening train continuing on to Carlisle, for example?

I suspect that this proposal has more to do with the planned closure of Grangemouth oil refinery in 18 months time than the co-incidental closure of Dalston oil terminal. Aviation fuel for Prestwick Airport will then have to come from one of the Immingham area refineries on South Humberside. Considering the large number of coal trains that used to run over the S & C until a few years ago, I'm sure that a daytime pathway for one train a day in each direction could be found that would not impact on the current passenger timetable....both on the S & C and on the G & SW.

 

[Gloster]

I suspect that this proposal has more to do with the planned closure of Grangemouth oil refinery in 18 months time than the co-incidental closure of Dalston oil terminal. Aviation fuel for Prestwick Airport will then have to come from one of the Immingham area refineries on South Humberside.

There are reports that the fuel for Prestwick is to come from the Isle of Grain. Dalston’s closure is apparently a result of that of Grangemouth.

 

[D6130]

There are reports that the fuel for Prestwick is to come from the Isle of Grain. Dalston’s closure is apparently a result of that of Grangemouth.

Even if the fuel originates from the Grain refinery, the train will still require a path over the S & C and G & SW.... possibly returning via the WCML (in the current Grangemouth-Dalston path?) to avoid having to run-round at Stevenson or Dalry/Brownhill.

 

[30907]

The 10:48 off of Leeds is quite popular though - often four carriages in summer. How will all these passengers be accommodated in the surrounding trains ?

Quite, and the 0920 is 3.

Those mid morning trains are at the sweet spot of when people want to start a day out but still getting to the destination for most of the day.

And the afternoon services back likewise.

TBH I doubt there is a huge demand for a later service beyond Ribblehead, except perhaps for weekenders on a Friday.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite, and the 0920 is 3.

And the afternoon services back likewise.

TBH I doubt there is a huge demand for a later service beyond Ribblehead, except perhaps for weekenders on a Friday.

Yes, the current latest off of Carlisle is quite a recent innovation as I recall.

 

[30907]

It was part of the latest (2016?) franchise package, along with the Bentham line improvements. The one time I used it there were barely a dozen passengers off Carlisle.

 

[yorksrob]

It was part of the latest (2016?) franchise package, along with the Bentham line improvements. The one time I used it there were barely a dozen passengers off Carlisle.

I sometimes catch it from Settle and there are usually a reasonable number of people on it. Not sure how seasonable that train is.

 

[Gathursty]

1) Rebrand Giggleswick as Yorkshire Dales Parkway.
2) Extend car park.
3) Make provision for buses to all the main attractions.
4) Services as now but also...
5) Saturday and Sunday only Manchester Victoria - Lancaster calling at Bolton, Entwistle, Darwen, Blackburn, Whalley, Clitheroe, Hellifield, Long Preston, Yorkshire Dales Parkway, Clapham, Bentham, Wennington, Carnforth, Lancaster. (Morning and Evening return trip).
6) Small advertising campaign fronted by a Professional Northerner (Paddy McGuiness)
7) Brand a unit something catchy like the Yorkshire Dales Express.

 

[30907]

1) Rebrand Giggleswick as Yorkshire Dales Parkway.
2) Extend car park.

If people are going to Park and Ride from along the A65 to get to Skipton and beyond, far better to direct them to a station on both routes such as Hellifield where there is plenty of redundant land next to the siding full of derelict vans - you could even build a second access via Waterside Lane to keep the traffic out of he village

3) Make provision for buses to all the main attractions.

Yes. Hawes is well catered for, Malham could be better, where else were you thinking of?

5) Saturday and Sunday only Manchester Victoria - Lancaster calling at Bolton, Entwistle, Darwen, Blackburn, Whalley, Clitheroe, Hellifield, Long Preston, Yorkshire Dales Parkway, Clapham, Bentham, Wennington, Carnforth, Lancaster. (Morning and Evening return trip).

Why the Bentham line not the S and C, which is where the main attractions are?

 

[InkyScrolls]

If people are going to Park and Ride from along the A65 to get to Skipton and beyond, far better to direct them to a station on both routes such as Hellifield where there is plenty of redundant land next to the siding full of derelict vans - you could even build a second access via Waterside Lane to keep the traffic out of he village

The vans were removed in 2022, with the siding and adjacent land now used for wood transfer by Colas.

Why the Bentham line not the S&C, which is where the main attractions are?

Indeed! Rather an odd route to take.

1) Rebrand Giggleswick as Yorkshire Dales Parkway.

Urgh, please no - I can't stand 'parkway' names!

 

[30907]

The vans were removed in 2022, with the siding and adjacent land now used for wood transfer by Colas.

Oops! Should look out of the window more
Not that I am convinced there is a vast unmet demand....

 

[Gathursty]

Why the Bentham line not the S and C, which is where the main attractions are?

The aim of my suggestion is to inject some life into the Bentham line and promote the attractions near it.

Clearly there is always going to be demand for the S&C and I support a service from Manchester direct to Settle too.

What are your proposals to boost patronage of the Bentham line beyond don't bother and let's focus on the S&C instead?

 

[30907]

The aim of my suggestion is to inject some life into the Bentham line and promote the attractions near it.
Clearly there is always going to be demand for the S&C and I support a service from Manchester direct to Settle too.

Sorry, I didn't realise either of those points from your post.

What are your proposals to boost patronage of the Bentham line beyond don't bother and let's focus on the S&C instead?

Since you ask:
.
1. The Bentham line has the best timetable (and connections at Carnforth) it has had since the 1980s, and one would hope that almost doubling the service would have some effect. It is important as a secondary through route Airedale-Lancaster and beyond, and as a service for Bentham which is the only significant local community near the line. Making sure those work as well as possible is the priority.

2. The CRP promotes linear walks, which seems an excellent idea, and the pleasant scenery, and those are definite selling points. Access to Bowland perhaps? - more for cyclists I would have thought because of the distances.

3. As for destinations en route - the only major one I know of is the Ingleton Waterfalls Walk, and that's a fair way from the nearest station at Clapham; realistically it is better served from Settle by the regular bus to Ingleton village (which ideally should stop nearer Settle station). Are there others to add?

 

[D6130]

Are there others to add?

Bentham has bus connections - and walking routes for the more able-bodied - to the very pretty and historic village of Burton-in-Lonsdale a couple of miles away, which has a good pub for both food and drinks. It also has connections to Ingleton and Thornton-in-Lonsdale, in whose church Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was married. (Good info for the 'Settlement Association' thread there!)

 

[30907]

Bentham has bus connections - and walking routes for the more able-bodied - to the very pretty and historic village of Burton-in-Lonsdale a couple of miles away, which has a good pub for both food and drinks. It also has connections to Ingleton and Thornton-in-Lonsdale, in whose church Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was married. (Good info for the 'Settlement Association' thread there!)

The other possibility I have wondered about is retiming the service to form the daily Heysham IoM connection, ie 1049 ex Leeds and c. 1350 off Lancaster, but 1049 is a longstanding Carlisle path and the package of consequent alterations would need thinking through! There is also I believe an issue that only Barrow sign Heysham!

 

[InkyScrolls]

The other possibility I have wondered about is retiming the service to form the daily Heysham IoM connection, ie 1049 ex Leeds and c. 1350 off Lancaster, but 1049 is a longstanding Carlisle path and the package of consequent alterations would need thinking through! There is also I believe an issue that only Barrow sign Heysham!

Indeed on Barrow sign the Heysham branch. For a number of years the Heysham trains were double-manned, as the traction was always booked a 144, which Barrow crews did not sign. So a Skipton crew (the only ones to sign between Skipton and Carnforth) would work the 144 as far as Lancaster, where a Barrow crew would join them and travel 'pass' to Morecambe. At Morecambe the Barrow crew would take over under the direction of the Skipton crew, as far as Heysham and back. This practice ended in 2020 when the 144s were withdrawn.

 

[Gaz67]

With the proposal for trains running north of Clitheroe on the cards again i thought i would put forward my proposal. Remember folks this is new money coming from the aborted HS2 debacle.

Class 68/mk5 put onto Leeds Carlisle.
158s freed up moved west of the pennines.
Manchester Ribblehead services formed of either 2x 156 or 156 {3 car as 150/0} with refurbished 153 in the scotrail layout .
Probably 3 or 4 return journeys 6 days a week, 7 in summer.

I know this will get laughed and sneered at and pulled to pieces but please nobody tell me we cant afford it, as i have said the money from HS2 has been promised for new services and infrastructure improvements.
.

 

[randyrippley]

3. As for destinations en route - the only major one I know of is the Ingleton Waterfalls Walk, and that's a fair way from the nearest station at Clapham; realistically it is better served from Settle by the regular bus to Ingleton village (which ideally should stop nearer Settle station). Are there others to add?

From Clapham you've got walks to Ingleborough and its caves and Gaping Gill

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From Clapham you've got walks to Ingleborough and it's caves and Gaping Gill

Highly recommended trip when the Craven Pothole Club are organising winch descents down to the bottom of Gaping Gill Cave. Was £20 when held in August 2023.

Visitors FAQ

Craven Pothole Club - Caving and Potholing in the Yorkshire Dales and beyond

www.cravenpotholeclub.org

Extract...

Visitors FAQ
Craven Pothole Club's Gaping Gill Winch Meet 2023
Descent Fee: £20 per person (and return!).

 

[randyrippley]

Highly recommended trip when the Craven Pothole Club are organising winch descents down to the bottom of Gaping Gill Cave. Was £20 when held in August 2023.

Visitors FAQ

Craven Pothole Club - Caving and Potholing in the Yorkshire Dales and beyond

www.cravenpotholeclub.org

Extract...

As far as I can remember the Cave Rescue Organisation also run similar days there as well

 

[D6130]

Class 68/mk5 put onto Leeds Carlisle.

Unfortunately they would be too long for the most of the platforms en route....and the window/seat spacing is not ideal for scenic sightseeing.

 

[Gaz67]

Unfortunately they would be too long for the most of the platforms en route....and the window/seat spacing is not ideal for scenic sightseeing.

Yeah thought this would be difficult, do they not have SDO?, anyway I stand firmly behind the rest of the plan

 

[30907]

Yeah thought this would be difficult, do they not have SDO?, anyway I stand firmly behind the rest of the plan

Yes, but please could you delete all the duplication?

 

[InkyScrolls]

With the proposal for trains running north of Clitheroe on the cards again i thought i would put forward my proposal. Remember folks this is new money coming from the aborted HS2 debacle.

Class 68/mk5 put onto Leeds Carlisle.
158s freed up moved west of the pennines.
Manchester Ribblehead services formed of either 2x 156 or 156 {3 car as 150/0} with refurbished 153 in the scotrail layout .
Probably 3 or 4 return journeys 6 days a week, 7 in summer.

I know this will get laughed and sneered at and pulled to pieces but please nobody tell me we cant afford it, as i have said the money from HS2 has been promised for new services and infrastructure improvements.

Could it be afforded? Yes.

As a driver over the S&C world I enjoy the opportunity to drive loco-hauled trains? Absolutely!

Will the money go almost entirely to fund road improvements in the South? 100%.

 

[deltic08]

With the proposal for trains running north of Clitheroe on the cards again i thought i would put forward my proposal. Remember folks this is new money coming from the aborted HS2 debacle.

Class 68/mk5 put onto Leeds Carlisle.
158s freed up moved west of the pennines.
Manchester Ribblehead services formed of either 2x 156 or 156 {3 car as 150/0} with refurbished 153 in the scotrail layout .
Probably 3 or 4 return journeys 6 days a week, 7 in summer.

I know this will get laughed and sneered at and pulled to pieces but please nobody tell me we cant afford it, as i have said the money from HS2 has been promised for new services and infrastructure improvements.
.

Could it be afforded? Yes.

As a driver over the S&C world I enjoy the opportunity to drive loco-hauled trains? Absolutely!

Will the money go almost entirely to fund road improvements in the South? 100%.

£18billion out of £36billion has already been spent on a road project not in the North of England and pot hole repairs nationwide and nearly 400million to London for an unspecified use. £1.3billion for North Wales Coastline electrification which is hardly north of England either but at least railway infrastructure.

Unfortunately they would be too long for the most of the platforms en route....and the window/seat spacing is not ideal for scenic sightseeing.

As First Class is not available on 158s, just remove the First Class coaches of five sets to make three coaches and the DVT. Window spacing on a 158 is not perfect.

 

[D6130]

As First Class is not available on 158s, just remove the First Class coaches of five sets to make three coaches and the DVT. Window spacing on a 158 is not perfect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the first class coach is required for coupling to the loco and operating the train management system.

 

[deltic08]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the first class coach is required for coupling to the loco and operating the train management system.

You are probably correct. I only know first class coaches only have one corridor connection.

 

[HSTEd]

You are probably correct. I only know first class coaches only have one corridor connection.

These vehicles really do appear to have blended the worst possible features of multiple units and loco hauled stock into one mess...

 

[D6130]

These vehicles really do appear to have blended the worst possible features of multiple units and loco hauled stock into one mess...

It may however be possible to remove one of the standard class carriages and declassify the firsts. Would anyone on here with greater technical knowledge than me care to confirm or deny?