Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Tazi Hupefi]

In which case, if the current proposal is merely to move existing staff out from behind glass, increase staff visibility and presence on the network, then great. It fairly clearly isn’t about that, though.

The lines I've highlighted are costs that would still exist though. As mentioned many times, the staff will still be employed, rostered and managed. Or are you advocating widespread redundancies?

Do you actually read the entire post before ranting? I clearly specified that some of those costs won't be immediately saved. The removal of the actual staffed ticket machine is an instant saving though, so not sure why you highlighted that one. The point is that some costs would be saved - and on a national scale, it is significant.

And again, there are not going to be widespread redundancies - you and others keep peddling these complete non-truths. There are already hundreds of unfilled vacancies in these areas - which simply will not be replaced. A significant number of staff will voluntarily leave/retire - particularly those who have been around for a while and have attractive incentives to do so by virtue of their terms and conditions of employment.

 

[12LDA28C]

Do you actually read the entire post before ranting? I clearly specified that some of those costs won't be immediately saved. The removal of the actual staffed ticket machine is an instant saving though, so not sure why you highlighted that one. The point is that some costs would be saved - and on a national scale, it is significant.

The removal of the staffed ricket machine... to be replaced by the same member of staff standing by the TVM showing people how to use it. Sounds like a huge improvement and massive cost saving to me.

 

[geoffk]

Please point me towards evidence that operating ticket offices 'generates a substantial loss'. There are (currently) no proposals for redundancies so the cost saving by closing offices is minimal.

The railway should provide the opportunity for people to buy tickets online if they want to. They've done that. That does not mean that they shouldn't retain the option for people to buy tickets at a ticket office, if they prefer. The two methods of purchase are not mutually exclusive.

Also the ticket office staff moved on to the platform (whatever they are called) will still require facilities like toilets and a rest/tea-making area so the ticket office building, or part of it, will still be required.

 

[AlterEgo]

Please point me towards evidence that operating ticket offices 'generates a substantial loss'. There are (currently) no proposals for redundancies so the cost saving by closing offices is minimal.

Really?

The plan is for natural wastage through resignations and retirements to reduce headcount. Many - probably most - ticket offices are a financial burden given that if they are withdrawn tickets will be sold online or through other channels with virtually no overhead to the railway.

If you don't think they are making a big loss, why do you think the government's proposals even exist?

The railway should provide the opportunity for people to buy tickets online if they want to. They've done that. That does not mean that they shouldn't retain the option for people to buy tickets at a ticket office, if they prefer. The two methods of purchase are not mutually exclusive.

Fortunately nobody is arguing that there should be *no* ticket offices, but some are making the point that there should be fewer, and points that ticket retailing in GB is very inefficient from the actual fare structure down to the methods of retail.

The removal of the staffed ricket machine... to be replaced by the same member of staff standing by the TVM showing people how to use it. Sounds like a huge improvement and massive cost saving to me.

You'll need *fewer* members of staff to floorwalk machines, as is the case in nearly all supermarkets where the 25 checkout lanes have been replaced by 10 lanes and 25 self checkouts.

 

[peteb]

The removal of the staffed ricket machine... to be replaced by the same member of staff standing by the TVM showing people how to use it. Sounds like a huge improvement and massive cost saving to me.

So that's what you get at LHR where staff are advising folks to buy a £25 Heathrow Express single, whereas if you interrogate the machines yourself you can find a much cheaper single using Elizabeth Line to Zone 1, not merely to Paddington.

Let's face it Heathrow Express staff will push their product, it's a private company, not a consumer advice service, but that is what's needed for the majority of passengers.

 

[D6130]

Re London Euston - not nuts if it's like what Eurostar have done i.e. closed the desks and manned the TVMs/info points.

But Eurostar charge a £10 surcharge on bookings made in person at the station....with the exception of rail staff concessionary tickets, which are not available on-line or from the TVMs.

 

[AlterEgo]

So that's what you get at LHR where staff are advising folks to buy a £25 Heathrow Express single, whereas if you interrogate the machines yourself you can find a much cheaper single using Elizabeth Line to Zone 1, not merely to Paddington.

Not sure what your point is here - the £25 single is what they'd be sold at a HX ticket office, and you need to know what Zone 1 is to know how to obtain that cheaper fare anyway.

 

[NeilCr]

But Vivienne Francis, the Royal National Institute of Blind People's chief social change officer, told MailOnline: 'A mass closure of rail ticket offices would have a hugely detrimental impact on blind and partially sighted people's ability to buy tickets, arrange assistance, and - critically - travel independently.

'We know that not being able to get out and about independently prevents people with sight loss from being able to make journeys to get to work, meet their friends, go to sporting events or generally make plans like everyone else.

'The level of planning and preparation required to travel is significantly greater for blind or partially sighted people, and over half find it difficult to plan an unfamiliar journey.'

She said the charity's research showed that only 3 per cent of people with sight loss said they could use a ticket vending machine without problems, while 58 per cent said it was 'impossible'.

Ms Francis continued: 'As well as accessibility problems with online ticket websites and apps, they immediately exclude the large number of blind and partially sighted people without internet or smartphones.

'The Government claims it wants to "bring staff out from behind the glass" but in truth it risks leaving blind and partially sighted people behind a new barrier.'

Source DM

And - as I said - with my partner anyway - it's not just about buying tickets

Whichever way you try and spin it this is definitely not an improvement for quite a number of people - and IMHO - it's a detriment

Out of genuine interest has anyone talking about assistive technology seen someone trying to use this method to buy a ticket?

i haven't with my partner but I've experience of her attempting to complete an online GP referral firm and read a menu (well quite a lot of menus ). She can do it but not without a lot of swearing and going over it again and again

And she's a tough independent lady.

 

[frodshamfella]

Europe is in decline while Asia will become the new Europe in 15 or 20 years time.

It was probably made harder by the move to more expensive ticketing technology rather than just being able to write it out on a pad. However, that is reversed back with etickets - it could simply be done with a website and a laser printer.



People pay Trainline extra fees for basically doing nothing, so it's not at all far fetched that they might be willing to pay a travel agent a similar fee, or even a higher one, for making the experience far nicer.

When I worked for Amex Travel our client was ICI , we had a BR ticketing machine onsite back then.

 

[43066]

Do you actually read the entire post before ranting? I clearly specified that some of those costs won't be immediately saved. The removal of the actual staffed ticket machine is an instant saving though, so not sure why you highlighted that one. The point is that some costs would be saved - and on a national scale, it is significant.

And again, there are not going to be widespread redundancies - you and others keep peddling these complete non-truths. There are already hundreds of unfilled vacancies in these areas - which simply will not be replaced. A significant number of staff will voluntarily leave/retire - particularly those who have been around for a while and have attractive incentives to do so by virtue of their terms and conditions of employment.

I wasn’t ranting, and I didn’t even mention redundancies.

My point is that it would be possible to reform ticket offices in a way that increases staff visibility - in the way that surveys consistently show people want. But clearly this reform is purely about cost cutting (none of which will be passed on).

As a rail passenger, why is that something you’re in favour of?

 

[AlterEgo]

I wasn’t ranting, and I didn’t even mention redundancies.

My point is that it would be possible to reform ticket offices in a way that increase staff visibility - in the way that surveys consistently show people want. But clearly this reform is purely about cost cutting (none of which will be passed on).

As a rail passenger, why is that something you’re in favour of?

Well quite, this is exactly the nub of the issue.

This thread has many contributors who have entrenched and longstanding opinions on ticket offices which span a wide spectrum - from "every ticket office should remain open and there actually should be more" to "we have far too many, reform the whole thing including fare structures"

...and just about none of them think the proposals are a good idea.

Personally I think the best and most productive use of staff is for them to be mobile and multi-disciplinary, and that there is no good reason that tickets have to be sold in an office. Staff should be on hand and visible, to deter crime, assist the disabled and vulnerable, and provide a good public face for the railway. The fact is the government want to significantly destaff stations and that cannot stand.

 

[12LDA28C]

Also the ticket office staff moved on to the platform (whatever they are called) will still require facilities like toilets and a rest/tea-making area so the ticket office building, or part of it, will still be required.

Indeed. And those people saying that there will be substantial cost savings by simply not filling existing vacancies - those salaries are already being saved if staff are not employed so not filling those vacancies will save nothing.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I wasn’t ranting, and I didn’t even mention redundancies.

My point is that it would be possible to reform ticket offices in a way that increase staff visibility - in the way that surveys consistently show people want. But clearly this reform is purely about cost cutting (none of which will be passed on).

As a rail passenger, why is that something you’re in favour of?

I am in favour, because it will 'unlock' future technology improvements to ticketing - when you haven't got to consider legacy, outdated ticketing methods that fewer and fewer use, it is better to have the ticketing boffins focus on the future, without having to be constrained in innovation and/or incur duplicate and additional costs supporting ticket offices.

The overwhelming majority of customers have no need to encounter station staff, and most probably never interact with them, even if they exist, aside from seeing someone stood at a gateline observing. Personally, I'd prefer a resulting increase in revenue protection staff, both office based looking at data, as well as a visible or covert presence. It makes no difference to me whether they work for 'the railway' or via a contractor, although you'd expect a certain standard of training to be maintained.

It's a bit like everyone complains they don't see a constable walking the local beat anymore -and somehow that makes their area less safe. It's mostly perception, and the risks completely overstated.

I am sure in a utopia, most passengers would like to see an increase in staff visibility - BUT, I suspect the vast majority would not consider the lack of visible staff as a deal breaker as to whether they travel or use that station. The question to ask for the honest answer is:

If the ticket office closes and there are no longer visible staff at your local station - would you continue to use it anyway?

 

[yorkie]

I am a bit torn. I want to see modernisation, but what is proposed is an absolute mess. Aughton Park with a booking office but London Euston not? It is absolute nuts.

Is that one of the Merseyrail stations with an old fashioned ticket office, or with a shop that sells tickets?

Is either of these really that different to someone with a mobile device roaming around a retail area where passengers can seek assistance using the machines, and if the product can't be issued from a machine, they can use their mobile device?

... That does not mean that they shouldn't retain the option for people to buy tickets at a ticket office, if they prefer...

But does it need to be an office? Has this caused problems for other networks where this has been done (such as London Underground)?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Is that one of the Merseyrail stations with an old fashioned ticket office, or with a shop that sells tickets?

Is either of these really that different to someone with a mobile device roaming around a retail area where passengers can seek assistance using the machines, and if the product can't be issued from a machine, they can use their mobile device?


But does it need to be an office? Has this caused problems for other networks where this has been done (such as London Underground)?

Aughton Park is a relatively rural, one window ticket office, staffed with 3 shifts a day from 5am until midnight.

This station does not have step-free access to any platform.

 

[Silverlinky]

If and when the proposals to close most of the ticket offices are passed through, the next thing i'd expect for the voluntary redundancy schemes to kick in.

Take two of the bigger LNR stations Milton Keynes and Northampton. They have around 8-10 booking office staff based at each, however both stations already have customer information points, manned ticket barriers, platform staff, train dispatchers and the like. Where are these extra 16-20 people going to go when the actual ticket offices are closed?

 

[MikeWM]

If the ticket office closes and there are no longer visible staff at your local station - would you continue to use it anyway?

I've already made the point that as a confident, middle-aged bloke I'm less likely to be comfortable using some stations if there is no staff presence at night. It isn't hard to extrapolate that to see that those with less confidence, the young, the elderly, those with disabilities, women travelling alone, etc. may well choose to stay away altogether.

 

[NeilCr]

If the ticket office closes and there are no longer visible staff at your local station - would you continue to use it anyway?

I would (but not at night - I am already wary and avoid then where possible)

As I said upthread pretty sure my partner wouldn't if she was on her own - whatever the time of day.

 

[pt_mad]

And again, there are not going to be widespread redundancies - you and others keep peddling these complete non-truths. There are already hundreds of unfilled vacancies in these areas - which simply will not be replaced. A significant number of staff will voluntarily leave/retire - particularly those who have been around for a while and have attractive incentives to do so by virtue of their terms and conditions of employment.

What is Mick Lynch talking about within the first few seconds (between 00 and 13) of this video, and what does it mean?

CAMPAIGNING AGAINST TICKET OFFICE CLOSURES

Important briefing on RMT's campaign to oppose the Government and train companies' plans for ticket office closures with General Secretary Mick Lynch and Ass...

www.youtube.com

 

[A0wen]

(The Ramsgate job advert is actually for high speed on board staff based there who work the Javelins. Away from those, any onboard staff you encounter on an “classic” SE train will be a traditional guard, although agreed the minutiae isn’t important).

I’m not disagreeing with your overall point, and I do appreciate you are coming at this from the point of wanting more visible onboard staff. But, given the current approach of the DfT, you can see how DOO is likely to be used primarily for cost cutting (as BR used it) ie no or far fewer on board staff of any sort. That’s the only way real savings can be made. Hence I’d argue that, for those who value on a train presence, opposing further DOO is the best way of ensuring that into the future!

Back on topic, exactly the same applies to this consultation. I do agree with you that ticket offices need reform but, given the DfT’s current approach, the intention behind these changes very obviously isn’t about making the same number of staff more visible, in just the same way the removal of return fares isn’t really about simplification. Both measures are being described as improvements, but they begin and end with cost cutting.

I’m sure you can see why I (and others) have the concerns expressed above - so what are your thoughts?



It makes sense from the point of view of a government trying to cut costs with no interest in making inprovements. It will obviously appeal to someone like you as someone who apparently doesn’t believe the railway should receive more than the absolute barest minimum subsidy (or none at all), and should be closed/replaced with buses etc. as you regularly argue.

But please don’t insult my intelligence by trying to argue that these changes are going to be beneficial to railway passengers. They aren’t. Most will either notice no change whatsoever, or a worsening of provision (depending on whether they use office or not, or value a visible staff presence). This will include many disabled/vulnerable travellers - but I fully realised you aren’t bothered about them either…



Again viewing the railway as if it’s an entirely profit making business as opposed to a partially privatised industry providing a public service…

Bit in bold - on this we agree.

A bit like passengers didn't / don't notice when their train is Driver Only Operation or whether it's the driver or the guard who closes the doors.

I wasn’t ranting, and I didn’t even mention redundancies.

My point is that it would be possible to reform ticket offices in a way that increases staff visibility - in the way that surveys consistently show people want. But clearly this reform is purely about cost cutting (none of which will be passed on).

As a rail passenger, why is that something you’re in favour of?

No - but another poster did and that was where the comment about ranting and also redundancies was directed to.

Always a good idea to read other posters comments in full with the correct context - especially if they're responding to a different post upthread.

The removal of the staffed ricket machine... to be replaced by the same member of staff standing by the TVM showing people how to use it. Sounds like a huge improvement and massive cost saving to me.

Showing *some* people how to use it. Quite alot clearly know already.......

Though I appreciate that rail staff may not be over-excited at the prospect of having to interact face to face with their customers rather than from 6' away behind a glass panel.......

I would (but not at night - I am already wary and avoid then where possible)

As I said upthread pretty sure my partner wouldn't if she was on her own - whatever the time of day.

So, presumably your partner wouldn't go into London and travel on the Docklands Light Railway, Croydon Tramlink or most of the Underground network ? Because none of those have ticket offices and the first two don't have platform staff either.

 

[NeilCr]

So, presumably your partner wouldn't go into London and travel on the Docklands Light Railway, Croydon Tramlink or most of the Underground network ? Because none of those have ticket offices and the first two don't have platform staff either.

Nope

She wouldn’t - not by herself.

She’d be totally lost - and when her sight was okay she’d do it without hesitation

She regularly travelled from here to Carlisle with all that entailed

Tbh - not too sure where you are going with this

 

[A0wen]

So that's what you get at LHR where staff are advising folks to buy a £25 Heathrow Express single, whereas if you interrogate the machines yourself you can find a much cheaper single using Elizabeth Line to Zone 1, not merely to Paddington.

Let's face it Heathrow Express staff will push their product, it's a private company, not a consumer advice service, but that is what's needed for the majority of passengers.

Not sure what your point is here - the £25 single is what they'd be sold at a HX ticket office, and you need to know what Zone 1 is to know how to obtain that cheaper fare anyway.

Heathrow is a bit of an edge case though.

That said, the people who are alighting from an aircraft at Heathrow from whichever far-flung destination have clearly got the intelligence, gumption and funds to buy an airline ticket, get to the airport on time, get through check in and get out the other side. You might reasonably expect that if they are heading to a foreign country that they are unfamiliar with they might spend, oh, 5 minutes on the internet seeking a bit of basic information about how to get to the centre of London or their onward destination beforehand ? 30 years ago, when the internet was pretty nascent and smart phones didn't exist, fair enough, you'd be reliant on the local equivalent of a 'Lonely Planet' guide, but now, in 2023, you have all that information in the palm of your hand, even translated to your language.

 

[thedbdiboy]

What is Mick Lynch talking about within the first few seconds (between 00 and 13) of this video, and what does it mean?

CAMPAIGNING AGAINST TICKET OFFICE CLOSURES

Important briefing on RMT's campaign to oppose the Government and train companies' plans for ticket office closures with General Secretary Mick Lynch and Ass...

www.youtube.com

Any proposal that goes to consultation that might result in changes to jobs means that to comply with employment law, all potentially affected staff will have been issued with notices that their job may change or cease to exist. It's a some way yet from actual changes being imposed or any staff being displaced but obviously will be of concern to those in potential scope.

 

[jfollows]

Heathrow is a bit of an edge case though.

That said, the people who are alighting from an aircraft at Heathrow from whichever far-flung destination have clearly got the intelligence, gumption and funds to buy an airline ticket, get to the airport on time, get through check in and get out the other side. You might reasonably expect that if they are heading to a foreign country that they are unfamiliar with they might spend, oh, 5 minutes on the internet seeking a bit of basic information about how to get to the centre of London or their onward destination beforehand ? 30 years ago, when the internet was pretty nascent and smart phones didn't exist, fair enough, you'd be reliant on the local equivalent of a 'Lonely Planet' guide, but now, in 2023, you have all that information in the palm of your hand, even translated to your language.

Exactly so, I keep on agreeing with posters here.
Last month I visited both Hong Kong and Osaka, and both places had built new airports since I last visited in the 1980s (both on reclaimed land, the Osaka one looking quite scruffy now I thought).
In the case of Hong Kong I'd already bought my train ticket before I arrived - I bought a return ticket to Central.
For Osaka I knew the options and deliberately chose the more expensive "premium" service although I admit I was able to buy the ticket from a ticket office, I'd have been able to buy it from a machine at a push. I could have used the cheaper stopping service with transverse seating if cost had been a major issue.
And I'd obtained all the information I needed to make a choice before I travelled.

 

[peteb]

Not sure what your point is here - the £25 single is what they'd be sold at a HX ticket office, and you need to know what Zone 1 is to know how to obtain that cheaper fare anyway.

The point is that if there was a single, staffed ticket office, the passenger could enquire how to get from LHR to, let's say, Tottenham Court Road. They'd be advised to pay about £15 for a single via Elizabeth Line not a £25 single to Paddington via Heathrow Express and then have to fork out another £x for onward travel by train or tube. I know rail companies compete for business but the Hx staff are there from the moment you start walking towards security, flogging tickets, so some folks won't be aware there are cheaper and dare I say better alternatives to Hx.

 

[eldomtom2]

I'd argue that's not an accurate representation of the general public though. The majority of social media posts are likely to be in opposition to the proposals, in much the same way that people are far more likely to contact a company to complain about something than they are to compliment it. People who aren't opposed to the plans are far less likely to comment on social media, much more likely to shrug and say "oh well, doesn't bother/affect me".

Ironically, I've seen a lot of "I don't do the internet" posts on social media today, regarding the subject.

Do you often go to Reddit? Comments on news articles are not reflexively negative - if the majority like something, the majority of comments will be positive.

 

[WesternBiker]

The point is that if there was a single, staffed ticket office, the passenger could enquire how to get from LHR to, let's say, Tottenham Court Road. They'd be advised to pay about £15 for a single via Elizabeth Line not a £25 single to Paddington via Heathrow Express and then have to fork out another £x for onward travel by train or tube. I know rail companies compete for business but the Hx staff are there from the moment you start walking towards security, flogging tickets, so some folks won't be aware there are cheaper and dare I say better alternatives to Hx.

The answer to that is - surely - to do some research before one arrives? If people travel to a foreign country without doing any research about onward travel options at all, then of course they won't get the best deal. I'm sure some people are that daft, but most would surely do a bit of research? (There will always be some of course that just grab a cab and pay the cost.)

The Hx issues applies at many other airports - I've just used Oslo (Gardamoen) and Stockholm (Arlanda). Both have premium express services which are heavily advertised/supported, but both also have cheaper alternatives which take a bit more navigation/research to identify.

 

[Edsmith]

You're completely out of touch in respect of many elderly people. Perhaps when you get older there'll be technology you don't understand. You won't like it then if someone tells you to take it up or lose out.

I have relatives in their 80s who are quite comfortable using smartphones, all too often it's just people who are not willing to adapt. And as previously mentioned smartphones won't be essential for train travel anyway.

 

[peteb]

The answer to that is - surely - to do some research before one arrives? If people travel to a foreign country without doing any research about onward travel options at all, then of course they won't get the best deal. I'm sure some people are that daft, but most would surely do a bit of research? (There will always be some of course that just grab a cab and pay the cost.)

The Hx issues applies at many other airports - I've just used Oslo (Gardamoen) and Stockholm (Arlanda). Both have premium express services which are heavily advertised/supported, but both also have cheaper alternatives which take a bit more navigation/research to identify.

The point I'm making is that if there is no-one around to advise incoming passengers then they may end up feeling ripped off because they've been sold a ticket that only takes them to a single point, not a whole zone of Central London. Sure, a few may want to go to Paddington station and quickly in which case Hx serves them well. But unlike the Arlanda or Gardamoen expresses both of which I've used this year, Hx serves only one terminal station out of many in London. Oslo S and Stockholm S are just about the only central rail stations in those cities folks want to get to, whereas in London there are a dozen main stations.

I have relatives in their 80s who are quite comfortable using smartphones, all too often it's just people who are not willing to adapt. And as previously mentioned smartphones won't be essential for train travel anyway.

My father is in his mud 80s and uses mobile technology but internet is beyond him!

 

[Edsmith]

Somewhat surprised to hear there are that many stories of incompetent ticket offices regarding sales.

I can't say I've ever had a problem at any ticket office I've used throughout the UK over the past 30 years producing a wrong or invalid ticket. Am I just lucky?

You probably are, I've had all sorts of problems and prefer to buy my tickets online nowadays.