I'm more after an apology, not really pursuing northern rail stm or whoever for money. If I did complain to Northern, could they not turn around and pursue me for a RORA prosecution as (technically) my ticket had a restriction code 8a even though I did not know. (I know it's still my fault)
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G4s (I think) staff swearing at me
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I'm more after an apology, not really pursuing northern rail stm or whoever for money. If I did complain to Northern, could they not turn around and pursue me for a RORA prosecution as (technically) my ticket had a restriction code 8a even though I did not know. (I know it's still my fault)
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andywandy - if you wish to make a complaint, you would need to do so yourself.
As it was the return portion in this case, break of journey was permitted, so it's moot.
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You may be interested to read our Fares Guide; we have a section dedicated to break of journey.
Agreed, I posted on that matter here.
As it was the return portion in this case, break of journey was permitted, so it's moot.
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No. The restriction does not apply on the return portion. You were not informed of any such restriction. At that stage, you had not yet broken your journey anyway! Even if it wasn't allowed and you had been informed, you could have either continued to Burnage or been charged the correct excess fare.
You may be interested to read our Fares Guide; we have a section dedicated to break of journey.
It's a historic matter. Traditionally, the ticket type now known as an off-peak return was called a saver return and these usually carried no time restriction but break of journey was prohibited on the outbound journey. Since "simplification", a whole range of formerly unrestricted off-peak returns have gained restrictions, most notably those priced by Arriva CrossCountry.
But this was the outbound:
He hadn't, but he went on and did afterwards. However he had permission from the ticket inspectors, so that's fine - the phrase "let me off this time" to the man on the Castleton Omnibus would clearly be a one-off permission.
Not sure what rule he'd be prosecuted under. Surely not a bylaw, as at no stage was he on a train without a valid ticket.
Please do complain and seek an apology. Your case is hardly isolated and being sworn at by STM staff is far too common. It's anti rail and the attitude of some of them undermines the credibility and reputation of dedicated and hard working railway staff. Pressure does need to increase on Northern to do something about it.
It is.
A breach of one part of the NRCoC by the staff does not condone a further breach of another by the passenger.
323235
Established Member
Just to be clear to the OP 8A only prohibits BOJ on the outward portion.
Yorkie - as far as I can tell the passenger purchased his return ticket at Bangor and was traveling from Bangor on the outward portion ending short at Manchester
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As we all know the railways are not generally known for taking ignorance or lack of information as an excuse for getting out of anything relating to ticketing offences!
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clagmonster
Established Member
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Both, please see the below quote from the passenger - it would seem the were on the return portion:
To clarify, on the out portion of said ticket, break of journey and arguably starting and finishing short are prohibited. On the return portion, you are perfectly fine. Tickets for different journeys may differ in this regard.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I debate that with regard to finishing short, particularly given ATOC's position on the matter posted here on many occasions. However, the OP was *certainly* entitled to pass the barrier to use station services, as that is not a Break of Journey (as unlike an Advance ticket the journey could continue on a later service - again if you do not leave the station that is *not* Break of Journey). Therefore, the only place a barrier can be placed to enforce against ending short is at the boundary of Railway property. I have never seen this done, ever.
Therefore, to all intents and purposes, ending short is de-facto OK on all walk-up tickets, and the Northern rent-a-thug had no business attempting to prevent the OP from passing the barrier to spend as long as he wished using station facilities, of which there are plenty at Picc.
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However originally he said
Theoretically I guess someone could observe you leaving and use that as evidence for fraud. Pretty long shot.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Possibly via the CCTV, yes, but that really is a long shot. I don't know what DaveNewcastle would see as the likelihood of that succeeding? Though I suppose it wouldn't stop a Penalty Fake being tried; there doesn't need to be an actual case for one of those, just a fear of one.
All this really does is provides another example as to why poorly-trained security staff should not be doing this kind of front-line role, and the new Northern franchisee really does need to sort this out. I suppose the advantages of barriering Picc will be that you need fewer staff to man barriers than to check tickets, so they could use proper railwaymen with proper training. I would be amazed to see any member of proper rail staff query such a thing as this.
Rent-a-thug security guards have a role, and that role is guarding things where there shouldn't be people, and so anyone they encounter is automatically in the wrong, for example factories overnight. They should never, ever be used in a customer-facing day to day role like this.
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bb21
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I think the answer is quite clear in one respect, that break of journey is not permitted if you are on the outward portion, but undoubtedly permitted if using the return portion. There are further arguments regarding the enforceability of this restriction which depends on a whole host of factors such as whether you were advised of this at the time of purchase but this is all a bit pointless in your case because you are certainly not going to get in trouble this time.
As to whether it is worth lodging a formal complaint regarding the incident. It really is up to you. From my perspective, if I were you, I wouldn't bother, as one I have far too many important things in my life worthy of my attention to worry about something like this, and two I seriously doubt that Northern's subcontractors are at all bothered about the reputation of their staff, as long as they prove to be cost effective for Northern. It is highly likely that this will just be brushed aside and an insincere apology issued, and even if an investigation is carried out, the guy will likely just deny it, and there is not very much that can be done unless his colleague backs up your story, the chance of which happening being slim to none. In my opinion it will just be a waste of time complaining about this incident.
On the other hand, this behaviour is clearly unacceptable, and if you complain, it may be recorded in that employee's file, so it could play a part in the future possibly in deciding whether disciplinary actions may be appropriate. Also if it really bothers you, then feel free to complain, and do whatever makes you feel better, because your own wellbeing is the most important thing to you.
Whichever option you choose, there is no right or wrong answer. Do what you are happiest with. In addition, you may have technically been in the wrong, but it is hardly something worthy of losing sleep over and you certainly shouldn't feel guilty about breaking your journey at Manchester.
As to whether it is worth lodging a formal complaint regarding the incident. It really is up to you. From my perspective, if I were you, I wouldn't bother, as one I have far too many important things in my life worthy of my attention to worry about something like this, and two I seriously doubt that Northern's subcontractors are at all bothered about the reputation of their staff, as long as they prove to be cost effective for Northern. It is highly likely that this will just be brushed aside and an insincere apology issued, and even if an investigation is carried out, the guy will likely just deny it, and there is not very much that can be done unless his colleague backs up your story, the chance of which happening being slim to none. In my opinion it will just be a waste of time complaining about this incident.
On the other hand, this behaviour is clearly unacceptable, and if you complain, it may be recorded in that employee's file, so it could play a part in the future possibly in deciding whether disciplinary actions may be appropriate. Also if it really bothers you, then feel free to complain, and do whatever makes you feel better, because your own wellbeing is the most important thing to you.
Whichever option you choose, there is no right or wrong answer. Do what you are happiest with. In addition, you may have technically been in the wrong, but it is hardly something worthy of losing sleep over and you certainly shouldn't feel guilty about breaking your journey at Manchester.
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