Gatwick Express: Should it have more stops?

[NorthKent1989]

The modern GatEx really isn’t anything more than a commuter express train between London & Brighton that happens to serve an airport.

It skips Clapham & Croydon when I feel they should be served by it, for onward connections to other parts of South London.

Should the GatEx be restructured to take more stops all day?

 

[PGAT]

Then they couldn’t justify charging premiums because it would just be a Southern service

 

[ThameslinkUser]

No. As per the hundred other threads on this exact topic.

 

[Sprigibax]

You could have used the Southern Victoria - Brighton direct service when it was running but they got rid of it. Maybe it could be brought back instead of adding more stops to GatEx?

 

[PGAT]

You could have used the Southern Victoria - Brighton direct service when it was running but they got rid of it. Maybe it could be brought back instead of adding more stops to GatEx?

Cant have both unless you’re willing to sacrifice another service like the peak Littlehampton service because there just isn’t any spare capacity

 

[Schweir]

Three Bridges could potentially do with some more Victoria services (currently gets 2 per hour). Haywards Heath gets 6 per hour I believe as a comparison. I understand that it is meant to be the "express" service from Brighton, but the amount of empty seats I normally see south of Gatwick may mean a re-evaluation of the service could provide benefits to those south of Gatwick

 

[London Trains]

Yes, it should stop at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Haywards Heath at the bare minimum, the premium fare removed, and while your at it, should be rebranded from "Gatwick Express" to "Southern"

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, it should stop at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Haywards Heath at the bare minimum, the premium fare removed, and while your at it, should be rebranded from "Gatwick Express" to "Southern"

Gatwick Airport is understood to disagree with that view.

Other than the issue you identify about passengers from Clapham Junction to Brighton needing to change trains, the service on the Brighton line is quite well balanced now. Trains from Victoria calling at Clapham Junction and East Croydon run every ten minutes, albeit they turn off before they get to Brighton. Four trains an hour run from London Bridge to Brighton. There are separate trains for each side of the Coastway, and Gatwick Express provides a fast service from Brighton.

While the link between Clapham Junction and Brighton appears to be much missed, in practical terms it is a compromise within what is a fairly sensible mix of services.

 

[SynthD]

Gatwick Airport is understood to disagree with that view.

Remove the express and say they can buy a new one when they open their second runway.

 

[JonathanH]

Remove the express and say they can buy a new one when they open their second runway.

What can they buy?

 

[zwk500]

Yes, it should stop at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Haywards Heath at the bare minimum, the premium fare removed, and while your at it, should be rebranded from "Gatwick Express" to "Southern"

AIUI it cannot stop at Clapham Junction or East Croydon due to line capacity - the additional dwell time and subsequent use of the stopping headway or platform re-occupation eats up a path that would otherwise be left free as the non-stop train can be followed 2 or 2.5 minutes behind.

 

[JonathanH]

AIUI it cannot stop at Clapham Junction or East Croydon due to line capacity - the additional dwell time and subsequent use of the stopping headway or platform re-occupation eats up a path that would otherwise be left free as the non-stop train can be followed 2 or 2.5 minutes behind.

Whilst that point was made at one time, the removal of the xx13 / xx43 Gatwick shorts and removal of the xx02 / xx32 Caterham & Tattenham services in the peaks, together with retiming of other services appears to lead to a better distribution of services from Victoria at
xx05 Arun Valley
xx08 Reigate
xx16 Littlehampton
xx20 East Grinstead
xx24 Eastbourne
xx29 Brighton

It almost looks like the Brighton could leave at xx28 and call at Clapham Junction (but not East Croydon), especially since the Peterborough to Horsham train can now use platform 6 instead of platform 3.

As I said above, the timetable on the Central Division does appear very much better off following the removal of some services from what it was prior to 2020. Moreover, users of the line have dodged ten years of disruption with the cancellation of the East Croydon rebuild.

 

[Recessio]

Wouldn't be much of an express if it kept stopping!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Also not needed

 

[SynthD]

What can they buy?

A new Express concession, but with cheaper prices.

 

[cle]

Yes, it should stop at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Haywards Heath at the bare minimum, the premium fare removed, and while your at it, should be rebranded from "Gatwick Express" to "Southern"

Exactly this.

I would rather drop a tph (not sure where before I am leapt on) - to even out the service and enable everything to call at both CJ and EC. 2-4 more 12 car services per hour would be very welcome and help average out overcrowding.

The 'fresh air' of the two terminators shouldn't be permitted. Or, at minimum, extend them to Three Bridges/Horsham. Terminate a TL service at Gatwick if needed, or redirect to Tonbridge fast/Reigate with 12 cars. But doesn't help the CJ/EC calls.

Victoria - Clapham - EC - Gatwick should be a metro, practically.

 

[JonathanH]

Victoria - Clapham - EC - Gatwick should be a metro, practically

It is. It runs every ten minutes, although it takes a bit of time to get up to that level southbound in the morning peak.

The 'fresh air' of the two terminators shouldn't be permitted.

They don't run any more (except on those Sundays when there is no engineering work).

I would rather drop a tph (not sure where before I am leapt on) - to even out the service and enable everything to call at both CJ and EC.

As above, the Southern service runs every ten minutes (xx05, xx16, xx24, xx35, xx46, xx54). Given the Reigate at xx08 and the East Grinstead at xx20, the Brighton at xx29 is in the only slot it can run in, and the service basically is 'evened out'.

xx02, xx13, xx26, xx32, xx43, xx56 from Gatwick towards Victoria isn't quite so good northbound, but it isn't a disaster.

 

[nw1]

I do wonder whether you could free up paths by combining the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services again, with a split at Haywards Heath, and removing altogether the Three Bridges (?) terminating Thameslink, transferring its stops to the Peterborough-Horsham so that this became a simple all-stations stopping service beyond Purley.

Might that lead to a possibility of Clapham Junction and East Croydon stops on the Brighton fasts?

I always thought that the Gatwick Express lost its raison-d-etre when the 73s and IC stock ceased to exist. In the days of the 73/IC sets, you could get away with charging a premium price as it was IC-grade stock. After the 73s, it was basically just another service, but priced at a premium. I always thought it would have been better to replace it with a regularly-priced crowd-busting shuttle from Victoria to Gatwick calling at Clapham Junction, with the aim of keeping Gatwick passengers off the longer-distance services, reducing overcrowding.

Perhaps in an ideal world we could have something like (timings only examples, not concrete suggestions):

xx00 and xx30 Brighton fasts calling at Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Gatwick (the East Croydon call being to provide a regular fast service from there to Brighton)
xx15 and xx45 Gatwick 'crowd-busters' calling only at Clapham Junction (East Croydon having plenty of alternatives)

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I do wonder whether you could free up paths by combining the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services again, with a split at Haywards Heath, and removing altogether the Three Bridges (?) terminating Thameslink, transferring its stops to the Peterborough-Horsham so that this became a simple all-stations stopping service beyond Purley.

These trains are far too busy as standalone 8 cars. To force one back to a 4 car would be detrimental for no benefit.

 

[nw1]

These trains are far too busy as standalone 8 cars. To force one back to a 4 car would be detrimental for no benefit.

Ah but the idea is that the additional Gatwick shuttles could remove Gatwick passengers from longer-distance services. You could then have an 8-car Gatwick shuttle and 12-car divider in each half hour, which would be an increase in capacity to Gatwick compared to the current pattern. Perhaps also the fast Brightons and the Gatwick shuttles could attract slightly lower fares than longer-distance services, encouraging people to use them and keeping the long-distance services less crowded with more segregation of Gatwick and Sussex coast passengers. (This is based on personal experience of travelling to Gatwick via Clapham, btw).

As above, the Southern service runs every ten minutes (xx05, xx16, xx24, xx35, xx46, xx54). Given the Reigate at xx08 and the East Grinstead at xx20, the Brighton at xx29 is in the only slot it can run in, and the service basically is 'evened out'.

Wonder why it's xx29/xx59 rather than the more memorable xx00/xx30 these days, incidentally?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree with those who suggest Clapham Junction could be an additional stop if it could happen.

East Croydon has enough Brighton trains due to Thameslink.

Also Clapham Junction is handy for those in inner South London who need Gatwick or Brighton.

 

[MarkyT]

I agree with those who suggest Clapham Junction could be an additional stop if it could happen.

East Croydon has enough Brighton trains due to Thameslink.

Also Clapham Junction is handy for those in inner South London who need Gatwick or Brighton.

Agreed. The connectivity of Clapham Junction makes it a great stop if the timetable could be made to work. If a resurrected Waterloo-bound Airtrack route resurfaces as part of a Heathrow Southern project, Clapham Junction could form a useful interchange for anyone transferring between the airports.

 

[Minstral25]

Three Bridges could potentially do with some more Victoria services (currently gets 2 per hour). Haywards Heath gets 6 per hour I believe as a comparison. I understand that it is meant to be the "express" service from Brighton, but the amount of empty seats I normally see south of Gatwick may mean a re-evaluation of the service could provide benefits to those south of Gatwick

The GatEx between Gatwick and Brighton is well used most times I catch it - which is quite regular. My normal times are afternoons and evenings.

AIUI it cannot stop at Clapham Junction or East Croydon due to line capacity - the additional dwell time and subsequent use of the stopping headway or platform re-occupation eats up a path that would otherwise be left free as the non-stop train can be followed 2 or 2.5 minutes behind.

As far as I am aware this has not been the case since 2018 timetable change. Gatwick Airport and DfT have vetoed the option to stop. In my view stopping at Clapham Junction would be beneficial for SWR passengers, LO passengers to get to Brighton, but of course no way of putting up barriers for charging extra for using GatEx services.

I do wonder whether you could free up paths by combining the Littlehampton and Eastbourne services again, with a split at Haywards Heath, and removing altogether the Three Bridges (?) terminating Thameslink, transferring its stops to the Peterborough-Horsham so that this became a simple all-stations stopping service beyond Purley.

You would get some serious kickback from Redhill line users to halve their well used Thameslink services. They are very popular locally and you have the additional problem that the Peterborough trains are unreliable, with constant cancellations.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Agreed. The connectivity of Clapham Junction makes it a great stop if the timetable could be made to work. If a resurrected Waterloo-bound Airtrack route resurfaces as part of a Heathrow Southern project, Clapham Junction could form a useful interchange for anyone transferring between the airports.

I’m of the opinion that no service on the Brighton side should skip Clapham Junction at all

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I’m of the opinion that no service on the Brighton side should skip Clapham Junction at all

A not unreasonable point, but should "Gatwick Express" branded services then always run fast to Gatwick Airport, omitting East Croydon?

 

[nw1]

A not unreasonable point, but should "Gatwick Express" branded services then always run fast to Gatwick Airport, omitting East Croydon?

Really one should remove Gatwick Express as a brand altogether nowadays (it only had value in the days of the 73s and IC stock) - but, if there was a restoration of a dedicated shuttle terminating at Gatwick, one could omit the East Croydon stop (but stop at Clapham Junction). If on the other hand we're talking about the Brighton service then there should be an East Croydon stop to restore the fast Croydon-Brighton link that existed until 2018.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I suspect I'm the only person on this forum who is nostalgic for the days when it was Victoria and Gatwick only. When finishing work late in the evening, knowing it was every 15 minutes until midnight was a boon.
(I commute from Three Bridges, and often work until 10-11pm)

 

[nw1]

I suspect I'm the only person on this forum who is nostalgic for the days when it was Victoria and Gatwick only. When finishing work late in the evening, knowing it was every 15 minutes until midnight was a boon.
(I commute from Three Bridges, and often work until 10-11pm)

Mind you wouldn't commuting by Gatwick Express be very expensive?

 

[Jan Mayen]

My annual season ticket (to London Victoria, rather than London Terminals) is any permitted, therefore Gatwick Express is included. I don't have a 'Not Gatwick Express' option. Unless anyone knows any different?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Mind you wouldn't commuting by Gatwick Express be very expensive?

If using day tickets, yes, doesn't seem to be much in it, if using weekly (or longer) seasons.