GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks

[DarloRich]

Gbrf shied away from refurbs as long as new 66s were available. But since new work is for the taking and locos are in short supply due to emission regulation this seems the only viable solution left. Once all refurbable locos are out on the rails there is no current known solution left is there? It just seems to me gbrf turned off that voice of doubt on this financial risk. Which to be fair is a few notches up from buying new 66s.

what new class 66's? As far as i know there aren't any to be had.

 

[richieb1971]

I know. Read it again please.

 

[richieb1971]

No 66s, refurbs only option left. That is my point.

 

[43096]

what new class 66's? As far as i know there aren't any to be had.

You seem to have problems understanding what people are writing.

It really isn’t that difficult. In summary: you can’t get new 66s, so GBRf are refurbishing old locos, which has more risk than new 66s. When the supply of locos for refurbishing dries up, what then?

 

[DarloRich]

You seem to have problems understanding what people are writing.

It really isn’t that difficult. In summary: you can’t get new 66s, so GBRf are refurbishing old locos, which has more risk than new 66s. When the supply of locos for refurbishing dries up, what then?

New build. Obviously.

However the costs, time and risks associated with that option today must be more than one company is willing to carry alone. It might not be worth developing and financing a new locomotive design simply to support 3-5 years worth of HS2 construction contracts. The costs in converting older locomotives must be more attractive and offer a faster solution.

That might be different if we were talking about a replacement for the class 66 fleet. We aren't.

PS hopefully if they do build a new locomotive they undertake aural tests to ensure the engine note meets with spotterish approval.

 

[43096]

PS hopefully if they do build a new locomotive they undertake aural tests to ensure the engine note meets with spotterish approval.

CAT C175 is rather rateable....

 

[USRailFan]

No 66s, refurbs only option left. That is my point.

Class 68/70 no longer offered?

 

[BRX]

68s and 70s also don't meet regs. As I understand it there's no current design which meets the emissions regulations and also fits in the UK loading guage. (Except the small engine in the 88?)

Refurbishing old locos is a kind of loophole. While I do enjoy seeing older locos being brought back to use, I sort of think that shouldn't be allowed as a get-around. If it wasn't allowed, I imagine we might have seen a compliant design appear on the market by now. And it's true that rail freight is starting to fall behind on emissions compared to new road vehicles (although not yet enough that it isn't still the better option overall).

 

[richieb1971]

New build. Obviously.

However the costs, time and risks associated with that option today must be more than one company is willing to carry alone. It might not be worth developing and financing a new locomotive design simply to support 3-5 years worth of HS2 construction contracts. The costs in converting older locomotives must be more attractive and offer a faster solution.

That might be different if we were talking about a replacement for the class 66 fleet. We aren't.

PS hopefully if they do build a new locomotive they undertake aural tests to ensure the engine note meets with spotterish approval.

An interesting perspective companies could merge up on a deal to get a new class of locomotive into the works. Since GBRF is in the title of this thread, we know they like to play alone and wouldn't want an outsider dictating any of their business decisions. Some of the smaller companies might have to do such a thing if the bigger companies don't hand down some of their examples. I mean, the DCR's of the UK (if any are left) don't have any class 56's to choose from anymore because they have been swallowed up.

What gets me, is why no non class 5 locomotives? Class 5's must be the most expensive to purchase. I can't even imagine what the last non class 5 locomotive new build was! It must have been a long long time ago. Perhaps a class 50? When I was a nipper double headed 25's pulled a hell of a lot of wagons. There is a Barnetby oil working that uses a 60 from Neville hill with about 4 oil containers on it, a 60? Really?

On your last sentence, I think the tone of the engine can be dictated by the exhaust system and I'm sure it can be modded to suit spotters needs. Not that its a priority mind. Whilst we move into the electrical age of things, we must realize that half the worlds population are used to loud engines and purchases have been made by certain folk because of that noise. A Harley Davidson, a Ford Mustang etc. With trains it also adds character and setting. I have 3 MP3's that use the engine sounds of a HST as part of its soundtrack. Look at the business Hornby/Bachmann do with DCC sounds of locomotives and how people choose their favourite engines in Train simulators? There is an economical reason in making products play a tune a certain way, and that is never going to change. If you take that away and make everything electric a certain amount of interest wanes.

Any loco sounding like a 20 or a 40 would get thumbs up from me.

edit - Tried to find out if the 68 was class 5, couldn't find confirmation. Classed as mixed traffic, so probably not. Apologies if I made an error. Seems to be high on HP and the price fits so maybe it is.

 

[xotGD]

Perhaps we'll see the de-preservation of more locomotives?

There is a blurred line between a mainline registered preserved loco and a privately-operated heritage loco anyway.

A fleet of Class 50s for the HS2 construction contract perhaps?

 

[delticdave]

what new class 66's? As far as i know there aren't any to be had.

None brand new, but ISTR that the Egyptian Railways have some defunct examples, possibly for sale?

As for the engine / exhaust noise discussion, I'd prefer the biggest silencers possible.
I really don't want to see a dirty exhaust or hear loud noises from any train especially new builds.
I'm surprised that the 68's are both loud & dirty........

 

[delticdave]

You seem to have problems understanding what people are writing.

It really isn’t that difficult. In summary: you can’t get new 66s, so GBRf are refurbishing old locos, which has more risk than new 66s. When the supply of locos for refurbishing dries up, what then?

Bombardier & Siemens are still delivering brand-new diesels locos in Europe, presumably compliant with noise & pollution requirements.
ISTR that Bombardier has done some work on a UK loading gauge Traxx, so is it really impossible to design a new diesel loco to fit our railway?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Bombardier & Siemens are still delivering brand-new diesels locos in Europe, presumably compliant with noise & pollution requirements.
ISTR that Bombardier has done some work on a UK loading gauge Traxx, so is it really impossible to design a new diesel loco to fit our railway?

Well, we were told a few years ago that it was impossible to design an underfloor-engined DMU that fitted the loading gauge and met emissions standards... turns out that it wasn't impossible.

The issue is that unless one of the manufacturers feels theres enough capacity in the market to speculate by developing a new design, those development costs will fall on the operators.

As for the childish bickering over the last couple of pages, none of you have covered yourselves in glory!

 

[capital12]

An interesting perspective companies could merge up on a deal to get a new class of locomotive into the works. Since GBRF is in the title of this thread, we know they like to play alone and wouldn't want an outsider dictating any of their business decisions. Some of the smaller companies might have to do such a thing if the bigger companies don't hand down some of their examples. I mean, the DCR's of the UK (if any are left) don't have any class 56's to choose from anymore because they have been swallowed up.

What gets me, is why no non class 5 locomotives? Class 5's must be the most expensive to purchase. I can't even imagine what the last non class 5 locomotive new build was! It must have been a long long time ago. Perhaps a class 50? When I was a nipper double headed 25's pulled a hell of a lot of wagons. There is a Barnetby oil working that uses a 60 from Neville hill with about 4 oil containers on it, a 60? Really?

On your last sentence, I think the tone of the engine can be dictated by the exhaust system and I'm sure it can be modded to suit spotters needs. Not that its a priority mind. Whilst we move into the electrical age of things, we must realize that half the worlds population are used to loud engines and purchases have been made by certain folk because of that noise. A Harley Davidson, a Ford Mustang etc. With trains it also adds character and setting. I have 3 MP3's that use the engine sounds of a HST as part of its soundtrack. Look at the business Hornby/Bachmann do with DCC sounds of locomotives and how people choose their favourite engines in Train simulators? There is an economical reason in making products play a tune a certain way, and that is never going to change. If you take that away and make everything electric a certain amount of interest wanes.

Any loco sounding like a 20 or a 40 would get thumbs up from me.

edit - Tried to find out if the 68 was class 5, couldn't find confirmation. Classed as mixed traffic, so probably not. Apologies if I made an error. Seems to be high on HP and the price fits so maybe it is.

I get that certain cars make appealing noises (some are also bloody annoying!) but that is a personal choice to buy a certain product that suits the individual.

There is no real economic benefit in satisfying the interest of spotters etc and in the grand scheme of things they doesn’t really matter!

The FOCs are there to serve customers - are the likes of Hanson, Tata etc going to stop using rail because they don’t like the noise of the engine or whether it is electric?! I think not!

 

[DarloRich]

An interesting perspective companies could merge up on a deal to get a new class of locomotive into the works.

I cant see an option for a full fleet replacement. There isnt another way to obtain economies of scale in purchasing. It wont be cost effective for each company to buy small batches of perhaps different locomotives.

Since GBRF is in the title of this thread, we know they like to play alone and wouldn't want an outsider dictating any of their business decisions. Some of the smaller companies might have to do such a thing if the bigger companies don't hand down some of their examples. I mean, the DCR's of the UK (if any are left) don't have any class 56's to choose from anymore because they have been swallowed up.

It isnt about dictating business decisions but about agreeing a common set of requirements for a new locomotive around which a detailed specification can be built. The freight sector needs, say, 450 locomotives of X horsepower that can pull 30 wagons at 75 mph. That loco needs to deliver X miles between failure, have a fuel tank of Y litres, it must fit absolute UK loading gauge, have a route availability of 3 and have a power system that meets current regulations and so on and so forth

What gets me, is why no non class 5 locomotives? Class 5's must be the most expensive to purchase. I can't even imagine what the last non class 5 locomotive new build was! It must have been a long long time ago. Perhaps a class 50? When I was a nipper double headed 25's pulled a hell of a lot of wagons. There is a Barnetby oil working that uses a 60 from Neville hill with about 4 oil containers on it, a 60? Really?

Because if you are going to spend the vast sums on money needed to obtain a locomotive you may as well obtain one that can pull, on its own, as many of your trains as possible. That gives you one training requirement, one contracting environment, one spares and repairs stream, one knowledge stream, one common operating system, one set of costs such as fuel and consumables and one set of depot equipment

None brand new, but ISTR that the Egyptian Railways have some defunct examples, possibly for sale?

You learn something new everyday. Are they UK gauge compliant?

Bombardier & Siemens are still delivering brand-new diesels locos in Europe, presumably compliant with noise & pollution requirements.
ISTR that Bombardier has done some work on a UK loading gauge Traxx, so is it really impossible to design a new diesel loco to fit our railway?

it isnt not impossible. What it is is expensive. As the old saying goes: You can have a gold plated Rolls Royce - as long as you pay for it! Bombardier wont develop the TRAXX idea, say, unless they have someone prepared to cover the development costs and prepared to buy the finished product. Those costs are going to be pretty huge for 10 or 20 locos.

 

[cj_1985]

The Egyptian 66s are just the same as our 66s with the air con module on the cab roofs. Same as 66747-749 were before they were bought for UK use... Their air con units were remove and the roofs were tidied up and sealed.

Only other difference would be the cab fronts... They are more like the original 59s with a few minute differences.https://www.flickr.com/photos/world...yw9-jxVpM8-5JfErb-gi7ZWx-dXP3Vm-CYKQR1-7J7Fxx

But IF the ENR '66'' were able to be imported (Due to restrictions in importing 710 powered locos into the EU Area), that could be rectified... Same as 747-749 which had some significant cab front surgeries to make/standardise then to UK spec https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/31415444531/in/photolist-PS5nan-yRJyA6

 

[ScottDarg]

And what workings do we expect them to start appearing on?

Post on a gen group states that 60047 is working TnT with 66748 on 6N22 from Tyne Coal Terminal to Lynemouth Power Station.

Should be hauling the new Biomass hoppers if this is anything to go by: https://flic.kr/p/27ThP5g

 

[delticdave]

I cant see an option for a full fleet replacement. There isnt another way to obtain economies of scale in purchasing. It wont be cost effective for each company to buy small batches of perhaps different locomotives.






You learn something new everyday. Are they UK gauge compliant?

Probably not, but if the cab-mounted Air-Con units & the over-sized sandboxes were removed ..........
March Railway Magazine has some info, but it's not really clear why they've been side-lined in favour of new locos
from G.E.
From the few videos on YouTube, they don't seem to be loved.....



it is not impossible. What it is is expensive. As the old saying goes: You can have a gold plated Rolls Royce - as long as you pay for it! Bombardier wont develop the TRAXX idea, say, unless they have someone prepared to cover the development costs and prepared to buy the finished product. Those costs are going to be pretty huge for 10 or 20 locos.

Agreed, the Traxx P160UK was offered as a potential replacement for Anglia's 90's, but that wasn't really going to happen.

 

[richieb1971]

Post on a gen group states that 60047 is working TnT with 66748 on 6N22 from Tyne Coal Terminal to Lynemouth Power Station.

Should be hauling the new Biomass hoppers if this is anything to go by: https://flic.kr/p/27ThP5g

Read elsewhere that the biomass is being used as a test for 60047. Apparently it should pass with flying colours.

It isnt about dictating business decisions but about agreeing a common set of requirements for a new locomotive around which a detailed specification can be built. The freight sector needs, say, 450 locomotives of X horsepower..<snip>

A scaled down 66/68/70 would probably meet emissions regulations and could be built to the same standards, streams and so forth. We already have enough locos, its just that we use class 5's on short trains, middle length trains and long trains. DRS use extremely powerful locomotives to pull the nuclear flask train, there is a Neville hill oil tanker working with a daily rake of 6 being pulled by a 60 and we are starting our RHTT season with mostly 66's I think (more than last year). If BR got something right it was having a mixture of locos, but what it got wrong was that it ordered from every Tom, Dick and Harry. There is definitely room for a class 3 locomotive. Network rail could order a dozen of them for their test trains with 3 carriages for example.

 

[USRailFan]

Agreed, the Traxx P160UK was offered as a potential replacement for Anglia's 90's, but that wasn't really going to happen.

You'd think Freightliner would be interested. to replace their ancient 86s?

 

[Domh245]

You'd think Freightliner would be interested. to replace their ancient 86s?

Only if it was cheaper to buy those new locos rather than just use 66s or some other Diesel.

 

[43096]

A scaled down 66/68/70 would probably meet emissions regulations and could be built to the same standards, streams and so forth. We already have enough locos, its just that we use class 5's on short trains, middle length trains and long trains. DRS use extremely powerful locomotives to pull the nuclear flask train, there is a Neville hill oil tanker working with a daily rake of 6 being pulled by a 60 and we are starting our RHTT season with mostly 66's I think (more than last year). If BR got something right it was having a mixture of locos, but what it got wrong was that it ordered from every Tom, Dick and Harry. There is definitely room for a class 3 locomotive. Network rail could order a dozen of them for their test trains with 3 carriages for example.

The problem is that the Type 3 requirement is a pretty niche one, so new build would be very expensive. GBRf have gone for the class 73 rebuild to address their needs.

Given how few Type 3 turns there are in the overall scheme of things, going with a standard Type 5 makes sense. There will be a few trains where they are over-kill, but there are big savings in terms of acquisition costs (for a bespoke Type 3), crew knowledge, maintenance costs, spare parts provision etc etc.

 

[richieb1971]

Well it certainly seems that way. Once upon a time the railways were ran very differently. A 25 was a cut down 45 I think and almost all the drivers in my area could drive both. We also have quite a few classes of loco on the mainline from yesteryear which use very different controls, dashboard, window configuration and nobody is complaining about running them. I didn't realize non type 5 locos were specialist these days and if the costs are anywhere near a type 5 I agree its not worth it. But it could get you through emissions.

 

[tjlrailblue]

are there any diesel locos going surplus in europe that would fit our loading gauge? not class 66 but some others from one of the former state operators that are not seeing much use.

for hs2 work could we use locos that don't fit our loading gauge but could at least get from a construction supplies base and onto the new high speed line?


Tim

 

[Paul L]

I wonder if it might be possible to adapt an American gen set loco with new cabs to fit the UK loading gauge. The bodies of these locos are smaller than locomotives like the SD70.

 

[snakeeyes]

Why not refurbish class 58 if needed after all the class 56 are rebuilt?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why not refurbish class 58 if needed after all the class 56 are rebuilt?

At this point they've been sitting gathering dust for nigh on 2 decades, you'd have to replace pretty much everything.

 

[JohnMcL7]

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/gb-railfreight-buys-more-locomotives

Speaking of the lack of new type 3's and only buying type 5's, I assume the 73's referenced in the article will be re-engineered the same as the existing 73/9's? How are the 73/9's running now as on paper they seem a good idea, we still have the 67 at Inverness for the sleeper so not been able to see a 73/9.

 

[Roast Veg]

They run regularly out of Tonbridge, two were active tonight even. Anecdotally, GBRF seem to prefer them quite considerably.

 

[Kneedown]

He's suggesting that the choices are simple: either the 56s went for scrap or someone brave could invest and have them re-engineered. The latter is of course taking place, and im afraid for all the wibblers on here once done they'll neither sound like a 56 nor look like a 56 (new cabs are mooted). Personally I prefer a 56 in original format, but time marches on and if theres a better use for them in re-engineered form then its got to be a good thing for GBRf & and the railways in general.

Is the correct answer.
I currently drive both VP185, and MTU engined HST's, but will always remember, and miss, the Valenta's. Time's change though, but it's still a privilege to drive them. 56's are the same. I drove them when based at Toton and the sound was, IMO one of the best ever diesel sounds, but if it's a choice between re-engining or seeing them go to Booths, i'll opt for the former. I do miss driving a 56, especially the Romanian one's.
Not sure about new cabs though. Would rather see new cabs on Sprinters to make them a bit easier to live with!