GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks

[randyrippley]

Don’t know really. I suppose I was going on it being a similar situation to the re-engined 37/9s, 47901 and the 73/9s.
It could of course be anything though.

47901 was 47601 after its first engine graft so you can't use that as a precedent

 

[Domh245]

It couldn't be "anything" - there are plenty of number clashes with DMU vehicles in the 56xxx range.

Not too many DMU clashes, by my reckoning, the 565xx range is all clear, whilst the 562xx, 563xx, 566xx, 567xx, 568xx and 569xx are almost entirely clear (201-208, 331-345, 393-398, 630-639, and 801-806 being used by various turbostar MSs, 751-766 are 175 MSs, and 901-914 are 180 MSLRBs). There are plenty of blocks big enough for GBRf and whoever is fitting the EMDs for them (Wabtec or Brush I would guess?) to pick from, and clashes between blocks isn't something that they'd appear to be concerned about given the overlap between the 563xx turbostar vehicles and the 6 56/3s 301, 302, 303, 311, 312, 313)

 

[Harbornite]

Yeah but where are u gonna get 15 56 bodyshells from, I hope we don't see preserved ones going into the mincer

Uk Rail leasing's fleet, they've been at Leicester for at least 4 years...

 

[randyrippley]

Uk Rail leasing's fleet, they've been at Leicester for at least 4 years...

So more rustbucket refurbs then........

 

[richieb1971]

Rust buckets with more power than anything on the network. When you consider nothing else would do.

 

[ac6000cw]

Rust buckets with more power than anything on the network. When you consider nothing else would do.

Eh? What about the 68s and 70s
(and the 59s, 66s and 67s are about the same engine power as a 56).

 

[richieb1971]

I don't know. The 70 must have failed the test at Liverpool. Unless that is a different problem to the one these 56s are solving.

 

[Helvellyn]

Shame it isn't 15 x 58s but I know DB would not release those!

 

[GB]

The 70 test was deemed successful. However as with most things in life, I imagine it all comes down to price.

If you can get and do up 15 56’s at a less or similar cost than 6 or 7 70’s then the extra flexibility probably swayed the decision.....that is of course if the confirmation is true.

 

[richieb1971]

Hearing lots of mumblings about drs, gbrf and colas now. Lots of big heads around a big table.

 

[CosherB]

Hearing lots of mumblings about drs, gbrf and colas now. Lots of big heads around a big table.

Any chance you could stop trying to misquote further information posted elsewhere online?

 

[randyrippley]

Rust buckets with more power than anything on the network. When you consider nothing else would do.

doesn't matter what the power is: a rustbucket can be as powerful as you like but it's not going to be much use

 

[richieb1971]

Any chance you could stop trying to misquote further information posted elsewhere online?

I can see how you came to this conclusion

 

[Photohunter71]

So a refurbed grid with an emd engine? What particular series of engine, the one from a 66 or 59?
Thus more blasted ying yinging!

 

[Mollman]

I don't know. The 70 must have failed the test at Liverpool. Unless that is a different problem to the one these 56s are solving.

Looks?

 

[cj_1985]

So a refurbed grid with an emd engine? What particular series of engine, the one from a 66 or 59?
Thus more blasted ying yinging!

I would have thought engines from the 710 series... AIUI the 645 series, while still in use, are not as common and been out of production for over a decade.
While new built 710s probably wouldn't be allowed due to EU emission regs, there would be plenty of 710s available from elsewhere in the world, Possibly Egypt, considering they (ENR) have taken a number of their JT42CWRM/Class 66s out of service after collisions... to say nothing of rebuilt engines from the US, Or even Ireland displaced after re-engining - although the 710s from Ireland would depend on IE's desired re-engining of the 201 fleet

 

[gazthomas]

The 57's were hardly the worlds greatest success and I think re-engined 56's are a bad decision too.

 

[Far north 37]

I would have thought engines from the 710 series... AIUI the 645 series, while still in use, are not as common and been out of production for over a decade.
While new built 710s probably wouldn't be allowed due to EU emission regs, there would be plenty of 710s available from elsewhere in the world, Possibly Egypt, considering they (ENR) have taken a number of their JT42CWRM/Class 66s out of service after collisions... to say nothing of rebuilt engines from the US, Or even Ireland displaced after re-engining - although the 710s from Ireland would depend on IE's desired re-engining of the 201 fleet

Would they fit within the uk loading gauge.

 

[cj_1985]

Would they fit within the uk loading gauge.

Which?

 

[ac6000cw]

Would they fit within the uk loading gauge.

We've got both V12 & V16 645s (in the class 57 and 59 respectively) and V12 710s (in 66s & 67s) so the short answer is 'yes'.

Which ones would fit in a class 56 is a different question... but a (shorter) V12 is likely to be far easier to fit in the available space, and the 710 is a more fuel-efficient engine, so I'd bet on a V12 710 personally.

 

[ScottDarg]

A post on the WNXX news page this morning states that 5 of the Colas Class 60s are to be transferred to GBRf.

Colas has 2 variations of the Class 60 - those with the standard-size fuel tank and those with the long-range fuel tank:
Standard Fuel Tank: 60047, 60076, 60085, 60087 & 60095
Long-Range Fuel Tank: 60002, 60021, 60026, 60056 & 60096

My assumption would be that the 5 with the long-range tanks will remain with Colas, with the remaining 5 going to GBRf.

 

[Rail Blues]

The 70 test was deemed successful. However as with most things in life, I imagine it all comes down to price.

If you can get and do up 15 56’s at a less or similar cost than 6 or 7 70’s then the extra flexibility probably swayed the decision.....that is of course if the confirmation is true.

Only if you are certain that you'll find enough heavy freight work for the 15 locos, otherwise their upkeep and stabling costs become a drain. Having a full fleet of six newish locos in regular use makes more sense than buying 15 refurbed ones and having 9 sat idle.

 

[CosherB]

Or just picking up 5 ex-Colas 60s.

 

[randyrippley]

We've got both V12 & V16 645s (in the class 57 and 59 respectively) and V12 710s (in 66s & 67s) so the short answer is 'yes'.

Which ones would fit in a class 56 is a different question... but a (shorter) V12 is likely to be far easier to fit in the available space, and the 710 is a more fuel-efficient engine, so I'd bet on a V12 710 personally.

Don't forget that a few years back in the states there was a fair sized business in converting V16 645 to V12 by laser cutting the crank cases and fitting new crankshafts. If I remember correctly many of the V16 came out of retired military vessels

 

[Rail Blues]

Or just picking up 5 ex-Colas 60s.

If this is confirmed is this likely to be as well as or instead of the 56s?

 

[Highland37]

Don't forget that a few years back in the states there was a fair sized business in converting V16 645 to V12 by laser cutting the crank cases and fitting new crankshafts. If I remember correctly many of the V16 came out of retired military vessels

I thought the V16 was modular or am I wrong? I'.e. it could be built on the basis of a V12.

 

[433N]

A post on the WNXX news page this morning states that 5 of the Colas Class 60s are to be transferred to GBRf.

Strange, since the Colas 60s seem pretty well used to me. Granted, they could try to replace some duties with 70s but that didn't seem to go too well in Scotland last year and Colas have seemed reluctant to do it, to date, this year.

Unless, of course, GBRf are getting the contracts too.

 

[randyrippley]

I thought the V16 was modular or am I wrong? I'.e. it could be built on the basis of a V12.

the 645 could be built as 20, 16 or 12 cylinders
But a market developed in the USA of taking the larger engines and cutting them down in the interest of efficiency, at the expense of power. Basically you laser cut four cylinders at one end, fit a new crank assembly and plate over the end.
As far as I can remember it was modular in the sense the cylinder block pairs were individually machined out and then welded together to make the required engine size: the whole engine wasn't cast/machined as one

 

[ac6000cw]

the 645 could be built as 20, 16 or 12 cylinders

...plus 6 and 8 cylinder versions, mostly used to power switchers (shunters) e.g. the SW1000/1001 series.

But a market developed in the USA of taking the larger engines and cutting them down in the interest of efficiency, at the expense of power. Basically you laser cut four cylinders at one end, fit a new crank assembly and plate over the end.
As far as I can remember it was modular in the sense the cylinder block pairs were individually machined out and then welded together to make the required engine size: the whole engine wasn't cast/machined as one

From the 645 Wikipedia page:

For maintenance, a power assembly, consisting of a cylinder head, cylinder liner, piston, piston carrier and piston rod can be individually replaced relatively easily and quickly. The engine block is made from flat, formed and rolled structural steelmembers and steel forgings welded into a single structure (a "weldment"), so it can easily be repaired using conventional shop tools.

One of the things that customers like about the EMD engines is that they have fabricated (rather than cast) crankcases which can be repaired by welding when they develop fatigue cracks. This is a major reason there are lots of old EMD locos still running around. GE engines of the same vintage use cast crankcases, which tend to have to be scrapped once the cracking gets too bad, quite often resulting in the scrapping of the host loco as well (as a replacement crankcase or engine is expensive, I assume).

 

[Suraggu]

Strange, since the Colas 60s seem pretty well used to me. Granted, they could try to replace some duties with 70s but that didn't seem to go too well in Scotland last year and Colas have seemed reluctant to do it, to date, this year.

Unless, of course, GBRf are getting the contracts too.

Colas have lost the Lindsey to Colnbrook BAA fuel tanks to Freightliner who are running the service 8 times per week from Thamesport, starting September, isnt that a regular class 60 diagram.