GC Valenta's - MTU'ING IS COMMENCING

[Techniquest]

Much like the EMT job to Scarborough did. Agreed that it would be a cracking idea.

Hertford Loop dud for HST here, had 43078+43105 around it on the 0830 from Kings Cross about 5 years ago on a Sunday morning

 

[ungreat]

Well how does the following sound?

Sunderland to Doncaster then diverted over the former GE & GN joint line to Peterborough then across to Cambridge and straight down the ECML to Kings Cross.

Kings Cross to Newcastle via Hertford North then across to Sunderland.

That would cover quite a lot of the ECML,

Seriously mate..you need a girlfriend! Much as I like the railway,I cannot spend my days off on it!

 

[CarterUSM]

I agree there! This 4 day week is the best thing that ever happened up here.

 

[yorkie]

I've looked for advance tickets Kings Cross to York in a couple of months, for a child EC is about £5 each way, although GC over three times more at about £17.50. Now i really want to go on the valenta's but is there anyway i can get a cheaper ticket as the advance GC fares don't really seem to cheap, thanks.

Get cheap APs to York, get a North East rover, get a cheap travelodge (£19 if booked far enough in advance, get a couple of mates along, that's £6.33 each per night) and for a not too high cost you can get lots of Valenta action (and see other places too).

 

[Aictos]

Seriously mate..you need a girlfriend! Much as I like the railway,I cannot spend my days off on it!

I don't spend all my time off on it, you know....

 

[37401]

I don't spend all my time off on it, you know....

Rest of the time on Call Of duty? Just kidding chap

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Only just viewed this thread, haven't read all of it but the bits I have read, are mostly drivel!

"Good News for passengers"

Ermm, yea, of course.
Lets see shall we.

You think Valenta, so you think knackered old Diesel Engine, life over.

Please then tell me how NL managed to get 18,000 hours of trouble free running on some of their Valentas? Not by luck I can tell you that.

GC's problem atm is down to maintenance, or lack of! The blokes at HT are unit chaps, how can you possibly say they know what they're doing like the NL chaps are? I'm not saying they're unqualified for doing mechanics but when all they know is glorified buses, it's going to be a farce!

Ok, you say. Well the new engines and powercars are going to be maintained at NL?

Well, they are. But NL chaps don't know das MTU. They're Paxman people. Uber qualified to work on HSTs it seems, but not so much on the MTU!

What happened to the full overhaul the PCs and engines apparently had when they returned? It seemed the engines were not overhauled as most of the first ones had a short life!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Only just viewed this thread, haven't read all of it but the bits I have read, are mostly drivel!

"Good News for passengers"

Ermm, yea, of course.
Lets see shall we.

You think Valenta, so you think knackered old Diesel Engine, life over.

Please then tell me how NL managed to get 18,000 hours of trouble free running on some of their Valentas? Not by luck I can tell you that.

GC's problem atm is down to maintenance, or lack of! The blokes at NH are unit chaps, how can you possibly say they know what they're doing like the NL chaps are? I'm not saying they're unqualified for doing mechanics but when all they know is glorified buses, it's going to be a farce!

Ok, you say. Well the new engines and powercars are going to be maintained at NL?

Well, they are. But NL chaps don't know das MTU. They're Paxman people. Uber qualified to work on HSTs it seems, but not so much on the MTU!

What happened to the full overhaul the PCs and engines apparently had when they returned? It seemed the engines were not overhauled as most of the first ones had a short life!

Heaton have had them for 2 years, the Northern mechanics are not the idiots you seem to assume they are. At one point the HSTs' MPC rate was one of the best around - they must have done something right. Why if it is all down to maintenance did FGW replace all their Valentas? They had vast experience of them but they were failing unacceptably often.

As for the last paragraph, it's pretty clear that the overhauls were done on the cheap.

 

[TGV]

Why were/are people so obsessed with the old engines? Because of the sound right? That's it... the noise they made. Unless any of you were personally involved in designing, building and/or maintaining these engines, then that's a separate issue, but I suspect most "fans" of them liked them because they made a "cool loud noise".

I'm as much of a petrol head combined with enthusiast as the next guy, but come on - we need to progress here. As much as our friend from the 125 group above says, the valentas COULD be made to be reliable, there is no guarantee that as they get ever older that this will be economically viable or even possible and who's to say what the MTU's will manage once they've settled in? 20,000+?

Then there's fuel economy... emissions... all of which are said to be improved now. The fact is the MTU's have been declared a success.

And I know you all love the noise, but generally, as a rule, noise is bad. Most passengers would much rather travel on a quiet train and/or not be deafened on the platform as it leaves the station.

So as much as you all miss the old noisy engines the new ones do represent progress on the modern railway - a good thing surely?

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Heaton have had them for 2 years, the Northern mechanics are not the idiots you seem to assume they are. At one point the HSTs' MPC rate was one of the best around - they must have done something right. Why if it is all down to maintenance did FGW replace all their Valentas? They had vast experience of them but they were failing unacceptably often.

As for the last paragraph, it's pretty clear that the overhauls were done on the cheap.

I didn't state that they were not fit for the job, I purposely stated that to stop comments such as that appearing.......

My comment was made at the 'Good News for the passengers' one. So doesn't include reasons such as money, noise emissions, 'clag' and so on so forth, purely down to the mechanics. Which has seemed to settled down, granted. But MTU may not be the trouble free mechanical savour some people are expecting.....

Why were/are people so obsessed with the old engines? Because of the sound right? That's it... the noise they made. Unless any of you were personally involved in designing, building and/or maintaining these engines, then that's a separate issue, but I suspect most "fans" of them liked them because they made a "cool loud noise".

I'm as much of a petrol head combined with enthusiast as the next guy, but come on - we need to progress here. As much as our friend from the 125 group above says, the valentas COULD be made to be reliable, there is no guarantee that as they get ever older that this will be economically viable or even possible and who's to say what the MTU's will manage once they've settled in? 20,000+?

Then there's fuel economy... emissions... all of which are said to be improved now. The fact is the MTU's have been declared a success.

And I know you all love the noise, but generally, as a rule, noise is bad. Most passengers would much rather travel on a quiet train and/or not be deafened on the platform as it leaves the station.

So as much as you all miss the old noisy engines the new ones do represent progress on the modern railway - a good thing surely?

With an ENTHUSIASTS head on, Valentas thanks.

With a PROFESSIONAL head on, it is clear that MTUs are a success, quieter, less emissions but not trouble free (same with all engines), which is what some people are thinking.

 

[tbtc]

Why were/are people so obsessed with the old engines? Because of the sound right? That's it... the noise they made. Unless any of you were personally involved in designing, building and/or maintaining these engines, then that's a separate issue, but I suspect most "fans" of them liked them because they made a "cool loud noise"

Well summed up!

We've got all this excitement and talk of "farewell tours" etc, not because a route is being withdrawn, not because a class of trains are being scrapped, but because... a noisy engine is being replaced with a quieter one. Wow.

 

[wensley]

Well summed up!

We've got all this excitement and talk of "farewell tours" etc, not because a route is being withdrawn, not because a class of trains are being scrapped, but because... a noisy engine is being replaced with a quieter one. Wow.

I think that that argument is far too simplistic. It's not as simple as an engine being replaced - it's the end of a period in ECML history. When the class 43s were introduced 30-odd years ago they revolutionised high speed rail travel in the UK. For all this time they have performed sterling work with Valenta engines and as the time for change has arrived they are gradually disappearing, now to such an extent that only 5 remain. I think it is only right to have a farewell tour to mark the end to this little peice of East Coast history - there is clearly plenty of supporters for such a tour - and, it's also a perfect opportunity to raise money for a good cause

43034 the black horse makes a valid point, a railway can't run to please enthusiasts - it is a business. I agree it is time for change but why should we just let these original East Coast workhorses go without a send off - these engines have worked just fine for over 30 years: surely that is an acheivement of engineering worth celebrating?

 

[Aictos]

Well said Wensley, pretty much what I think as well.

 

[TrainBrain185]

Not before time! I knew it was coming a while ago and GC will be truly delighted with their MTU's, as with everyone else who got shot of those awful noisy screaming Paxman chuffers....who cares about enthusiasts mourning their passing? The professionals have applauded the success of the MTU.

 

[TGV]

I think that that argument is far too simplistic. It's not as simple as an engine being replaced - it's the end of a period in ECML history. When the class 43s were introduced 30-odd years ago they revolutionised high speed rail travel in the UK.

43034 the black horse makes a valid point, a railway can't run to please enthusiasts - it is a business. I agree it is time for change but why should we just let these original East Coast workhorses go without a send off - these engines have worked just fine for over 30 years: surely that is an acheivement of engineering worth celebrating?

Yes, but it's not like the HST's are being withdrawn! They're still there. It would be another matter entirely if the powers that be had decided that it wasn't economically viable to replace the engines, and scrapped the whole fleet for some new DMU. Then there really would be complaints - and for the record - I'd be one of those complaining.

And as for giving 30 years of good service - yes, but that's ignoring that improvements have been made and they need to keep up. The fact that they've worked for 30 years is irrelevant - that's the minimum design life of most trains and it's true of almost every major and minor sub-system on just about any train in service today. If the main transformer in the fleet of 91's was replaced with a newer, more efficient model in 10 years time, you can bet nobody will arrange a farewell tour for the last loco with the old one. Simple reason is as I said before - it didn't make a cool noise, but it's provided just as much service as the valentas.

 

[43021HST]

I think watching 43065 flying through Doncaster Station with the valenta engine making plenty of noise and clag will stick with me forever.

 

[Techniquest]

I disagree with those that suggest celebrating (for lack of a better word) the upcoming end of an era is pointless. Surely, if that were so, neither FGW or EMT would have gone to the trouble of organising similar things. Granted, EMT went one better and organised a railtour of sorts to Scarborough with them, and both operators continued using their Valentas for some time after (EMT for longer than FGW did), but at least those of us who like HSTs to sound like HSTs had the opportunity to mark the end of Valentas.

Yes, it would be much more of an issue if it was class members getting scrapped, I don't think anyone would disagree. Nevertheless, surely marking the end of an 34-year long era is worthy. It will be the end of Valentas in a rail application across the country, not just the ECML. Well, until the opportunity arises for the 125 Group to put what they've got into use of course.

Yes, MTU has extended the life of the majority of the class, VP185 doing the same to a lesser extent on the MML. For which we should be thankful. Just as much so for the life-extending work potentially to happen in the near future on the HST trailer stock (I don't hear of it being confirmed, hence the key word "potentially"), which will keep the fleet as a whole running for years to come and scrapping hopefully a long way away!

I got into HSTs mainly because of the noise they made and they show they put on. If it had been MTUs back in 2003, I seriously doubt I'd have bothered. Same for if I'd been in the same boat but at Kings Cross and just 91s around, I seriously doubt I'd have bothered, I don't find 91s all that interesting. Even so, I still travel on HSTs, MTU or not, IC70 seats or not. I much prefer travel on a HST than a DMU, nothing quite as thrilling as travelling at 125mph on this side of London (395s, however, on the East side are quite enjoyable).

Thus endeth my essay/rant

 

[Zoe]

I much prefer travel on a HST than a DMU, nothing quite as thrilling as travelling at 125mph on this side of London (395s, however, on the East side are quite enjoyable).

The MTUs have extended the life of the HSTs, had this not been done and it been decided to go for replacment we would likely have ended up with Voyager style underfloor engine DMUs.

 

[Techniquest]

Agreed, I long ago abandoned my disagreements per se with the MTU programme, just glad I don't have to suffer DEMUs instead. Suffered one for 27.5 miles yesterday, sure didn't enjoy that!

 

[Royston Vasey]

I don't have to suffer DEMUs instead

Like the class 253s you mean?

 

[90019]

Like the class 253s you mean?

And the 254s

 

[tbtc]

I think that that argument is far too simplistic. It's not as simple as an engine being replaced - it's the end of a period in ECML history. When the class 43s were introduced 30-odd years ago they revolutionised high speed rail travel in the UK. For all this time they have performed sterling work with Valenta engines and as the time for change has arrived they are gradually disappearing, now to such an extent that only 5 remain. I think it is only right to have a farewell tour to mark the end to this little peice of East Coast history - there is clearly plenty of supporters for such a tour - and, it's also a perfect opportunity to raise money for a good cause

43034 the black horse makes a valid point, a railway can't run to please enthusiasts - it is a business. I agree it is time for change but why should we just let these original East Coast workhorses go without a send off - these engines have worked just fine for over 30 years: surely that is an acheivement of engineering worth celebrating?

Do you honestly think any passengers will notice the difference though?

What next? Did GNER do a rail tour to "celebrate" the old stock before their "Mallard" refurbishment?

Fair enough if a TOC wants to make a few quid from enthusiasts, I just can't get excited and pretend its the "end of an era"

The replacement of Deltics with HSTs could be classed as the end of an "era". Electrification was one. When the final HSTs are replaced by IEP/ something else. But not the replacement of engines in an otherwise identical train.

Bring on the Pacer Farewell tour, when we can all get misty eyed about the end of an "era" (in 2035) :roll:

 

[Techniquest]

Like the class 253s you mean?

Prefer a HST to a 67-hauled move! 67s sound more like the high pitched tone you only hear when a kid's having a hissy fit. MTUs, however, have a manly roar to them (as someone else on this forum put it). That and I see no 67s doing 125mph...

 

[anthony263]

Does anyone know how much fares are between York & Sunderland? as i have decided to travel up to Sunderland by coach from South wales in the next few weeks to get some valenta haulage before i return to university in september

 

[37401]

Prefer a HST to a 67-hauled move! 67s sound more like the high pitched tone you only hear when a kid's having a hissy fit. MTUs, however, have a manly roar to them (as someone else on this forum put it). That and I see no 67s doing 125mph...

what about all the other classes of loco?

 

[wensley]

The fact that they've worked for 30 years is irrelevant

I don't see how that is irrelavent. It's a long time and the Valenta engined HST revolutionised high-speed travel.

And yeh I thinnk passengers will notice a difference-quieter trains. I'm not pretending this aint a good thing for the railway. It is but I am merely showing that as well as the professional side of the argument there are also those enthusiasts who support the HSTs (as there are for every other class).

and as for

Fair enough if a TOC wants to make a few quid from enthusiasts, I just can't get excited and pretend its the "end of an era"

It is an end of an era. The HST re-furb program has been completed and all operational HST power cars in the UK will be running on MTU engines - another stage in the life of the HSTs. And surely there are plenty of enthusiasts who support this view or there wouldn't be any base for a valenta farewell?

 

[LE Greys]

For me, it's about losing something I grew up with. Memories of going to York to see the NRM, waiting at the station to meet my dad or visiting my relatives in London. All with HSTs running everywhere. When I got sent to school, the HST took me home at the end of term. When I went to Aberdeen University, I would go to the station every Wednesday for the 14:55 HST departure, the train that stopped at Stevenage. My sight's not brilliant, so that noise meant everything. That's what it's really about, a little bit of my childhood is about to die, and I want to see it off.

 

[37401]

Id imagine the GC valenta farewell will be the best of them all, after all its saying good bye to the last ever valentas in service, not something to be missed

 

[starrymarkb]

I don't see how that is irrelavent. It's a long time and the Valenta engined HST revolutionised high-speed travel.

And yeh I thinnk passengers will notice a difference-quieter trains. I'm not pretending this aint a good thing for the railway. It is but I am merely showing that as well as the professional side of the argument there are also those enthusiasts who support the HSTs (as there are for every other class).

and as for



It is an end of an era. The HST re-furb program has been completed and all operational HST power cars in the UK will be running on MTU engines - another stage in the life of the HSTs. And surely there are plenty of enthusiasts who support this view or there wouldn't be any base for a valenta farewell?

Or VP185s in EMT's Case
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And I believe FGW were looking a replacement with powercar+coaches combo based on the Eurorunner (Austrian Hurcules) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NsUKiQO4jw

 

[TGV]

I knew I'd be unpopular with my thoughts on this one! I think it's a good thing that so many people are passionate about some noisy old engines. I don't mean that disrespectfully either - just injecting some humour to the discussion. You must be true bobble-hat enthusiasts - fair play to you.

Memories - yes, we all have those and that's probably the strongest reason for missing them - someone commented that they couldn't see so well, but the sound was important - that's great and long may that memory live for you. Although I'm not sad about the departure of the old engines, I can understand why you don't want them to change.

Don't get me wrong, I think they had a unique sound that part of me will miss too - I lived next to either the WCML and ECML for most of my life. I suppose my nature to progress and advance is a greater force than wanting to keep the old things going. I'm not the kind of person that keeps a lot of things from my past for the sake of keeping them - I'm a "change and move-on" kinda person.

For what it's worth - the things I remember about the railways *I* grew up around include the screaming HST's, and bizarrely, pantographs sparking in cold weather. 87's and 91's strobing away as they headed through the countryside - it was quite spectacular.

I just had a thought too - isn't the NR flying banana still powered by a Valenta? You'll hear that one around for a while.