German (and other countries) trains which don't seem to exist?

[ABB125]

I've finally made a start on properly recording all the trains I saw on my Interrail trip over Easter. I've just finished day 1, and have already found some problems...

In my notebook, I have 452084 and 452053 written down; however, I can't find any reference to these anywhere in my new book (ST Publications, German Units 2021). Neither can I find any reference to a class 452 on the internet. These would have been seen in Cologne Hbf; it's entirely possible that I've incorrectly written down some class 462s, but it very clearly says 452 in my notebook. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Similarly, I have 435228 noted down for a journey between Mannheim Hbf and Ludwigshafen Mitte. I cannot find reference to class 435s anywhere. Unfortunately I don't have any photographs from this leg of the journey (since it was quite dark, around 2300). I'm absolutely certain that I wouldn't have written the wrong number down, as I always take extra care if it's a unit I'm travelling on (and normally copy down the vehicle number if it's displayed inside).

I then have "2903 loco" written down; this would have been in Cologne again (highly likely to have been spotted in one of the yards on the approach to Hbf from Brussels).

Finally, I have "4683 ICE" noted; this doesn't match up with anything in my book. Although, as I'm typing this, a thought has popped into my head: could it be 406083?

I imagine I'll find plenty more inconsistencies like this as I progress through 14 days of notes, given that this was my first European trip and I basically hadn't got a clue about how European numbering systems work! This thread will undoubtedly come in handy more than once!
Fortunately I fairly quickly realised when in Austria that class numbers are 4 digits not 3, so only had to prepend about half a dozen "1"s onto "116051" (for example)...

Thanks!

 

[Gloster]

Could 2903 have been a SNCB loco?

 

[ABB125]

Could 2903 have been a SNCB loco?

I was wondering about that, but I'm pretty sure I was in Germany by that point and I probably would have made a note of it (though I may have only started doing that a few days into the trip, I'm not sure).

 

[Gloster]

I was wondering about that, but I'm pretty sure I was in Germany by that point and I probably would have made a note of it (though I may have only started doing that a few days into the trip, I'm not sure).

I am not a hundred per cent up to date (well, far from that) but I think the 28 and 29 are multi-voltage.

 

[Bigchris]

Could 2903 have been a SNCB loco?

Yes, 2903 is an SNCB loco, they work numerous freight services through to Gremberg yard just to the south of Cologne (real loco number is 186348-9)

 

[atomicdanny]

Finally, I have "4683 ICE" noted; this doesn't match up with anything in my book. Although, as I'm typing this, a thought has popped into my head: could it be 406083?

Seems to exist - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gare-de-l'Est_-_ICE_4683_-_20130206_194026.jpg

That being said I have a video of 4684 (an DB BR 406 ) with the side number looking like 406084

I think this one probably confirms the number 406083 though? - https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2J3MF9J/s...sterdam-the-netherlands-14-3-2022-2J3MF9J.jpg

 

[Bigchris]

I've finally made a start on properly recording all the trains I saw on my Interrail trip over Easter. I've just finished day 1, and have already found some problems...

In my notebook, I have 452084 and 452053 written down; however, I can't find any reference to these anywhere in my new book (ST Publications, German Units 2021). Neither can I find any reference to a class 452 on the internet. These would have been seen in Cologne Hbf; it's entirely possible that I've incorrectly written down some class 462s, but it very clearly says 452 in my notebook. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Similarly, I have 435228 noted down for a journey between Mannheim Hbf and Ludwigshafen Mitte. I cannot find reference to class 435s anywhere. Unfortunately I don't have any photographs from this leg of the journey (since it was quite dark, around 2300). I'm absolutely certain that I wouldn't have written the wrong number down, as I always take extra care if it's a unit I'm travelling on (and normally copy down the vehicle number if it's displayed inside).

I then have "2903 loco" written down; this would have been in Cologne again (highly likely to have been spotted in one of the yards on the approach to Hbf from Brussels).

Finally, I have "4683 ICE" noted; this doesn't match up with anything in my book. Although, as I'm typing this, a thought has popped into my head: could it be 406083?

I imagine I'll find plenty more inconsistencies like this as I progress through 14 days of notes, given that this was my first European trip and I basically hadn't got a clue about how European numbering systems work! This thread will undoubtedly come in handy more than once!
Fortunately I fairly quickly realised when in Austria that class numbers are 4 digits not 3, so only had to prepend about half a dozen "1"s onto "116051" (for example)...

Thanks!

435228 around Mannheim would have been 425228 on the local S-Bahn. Photo of your unit here:

Angebot der S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar wird verbessert – mehr Fahrzeuge und barrierefreie Züge

15.01.2015 - Das Angebot für die Fahrgäste der S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar wird in den kommenden Jahren deutlich verbessert. So werden die Zahl der Fahrzeuge erhöht und barrierefreie Züge eingesetzt. Dies ist Ergebnis der Vergabeentscheidung im Los 1 der S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar, die Baden-Württembergs...

winnehermann.de

 

[ABB125]

Thanks all - very helpful so far!

 

[Bigchris]

Thanks all - very helpful so far!

I think your 452s you noted were probably 422s. Class 422 units would work S-Bahn between Cologne and Dussledorf on routes S6 & S11, and the unit numbers you saw would be right for that area. Link to a photo here if you can remember what they looked like:

DB 422 053 / Duisburg Hauptbahnhof — Trainspo | Train, Solingen, Adventure

Feb 15, 2020 - S1 Dortmund to Solingen service at Duisburg Hbf

www.pinterest.de

I was wondering about that, but I'm pretty sure I was in Germany by that point and I probably would have made a note of it (though I may have only started doing that a few days into the trip, I'm not sure).

And here's your loco 2903:

Finn's train and travel page : Trains : Belgium : SNCB/NMBS 2903

 

[ABB125]

I think your 452s you noted were probably 422s. Class 422 units would work S-Bahn between Cologne and Dussledorf on routes S6 & S11, and the unit numbers you saw would be right for that area. Link to a photo here if you can remember what they looked like:

DB 422 053 / Duisburg Hauptbahnhof — Trainspo | Train, Solingen, Adventure

Feb 15, 2020 - S1 Dortmund to Solingen service at Duisburg Hbf

www.pinterest.de

It's a possibility, but it was several months ago so I can't really remember! I'll probably just not bother with these mysterious class 452s, as there's no guarantee I'll put them in the correct place in the book. As you say, they could be class 422s, but they could also be class 462s...

And here's your loco 2903:

Finn's train and travel page : Trains : Belgium : SNCB/NMBS 2903

Thanks!

 

[Bigchris]

It's a possibility, but it was several months ago so I can't really remember! I'll probably just not bother with these mysterious class 452s, as there's no guarantee I'll put them in the correct place in the book. As you say, they could be class 422s, but they could also be class 462s...

Thanks!

Yes, the individual unit numbers for 422s or 462s would both fit for Cologne, 462s being considerably newer and brighter

462 084 als RRX RE 11 bei Unna-Mühlhausen auf dem Weg nach Hamm (03.08.2021) - Bahnbilder.de

. Gruß zurück an den Tf!. Foto, 03.08.2021 1200x800 Pixel, Lukas Sanders

www.bahnbilder.de

 

[43096]

Yes, 2903 is an SNCB loco, they work numerous freight services through to Gremberg yard just to the south of Cologne (real loco number is 186348-9)

It isn’t an SNCB loco. It belongs to Alpha Trains and is leased to Lineas.

 

[Bigchris]

Yes apologies, I still think of them as SNCB from the original locos in this class, obviously it's Lineas now since they took over. Loco profile is here:

Elektrische Lokomotiven aus europäischer Produktion

Trains and locomotive database and news portal about modern electric locomotives, made in Europe.

www.elektrolokarchiv.de

 

[XAM2175]

You need to be careful in that Germany doesn't really apply unit classes in the same way as you'd be used to in GB. Most notably, the majority of units don't display a single unit number.

Similarly, I have 435228 noted down for a journey between Mannheim Hbf and Ludwigshafen Mitte. I cannot find reference to class 435s anywhere. Unfortunately I don't have any photographs from this leg of the journey (since it was quite dark, around 2300). I'm absolutely certain that I wouldn't have written the wrong number down, as I always take extra care if it's a unit I'm travelling on (and normally copy down the vehicle number if it's displayed inside).

435228 around Mannheim would have been 425228 on the local S-Bahn. Photo of your unit here:

Angebot der S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar wird verbessert – mehr Fahrzeuge und barrierefreie Züge

15.01.2015 - Das Angebot für die Fahrgäste der S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar wird in den kommenden Jahren deutlich verbessert. So werden die Zahl der Fahrzeuge erhöht und barrierefreie Züge eingesetzt. Dies ist Ergebnis der Vergabeentscheidung im Los 1 der S-Bahn Rhein-Neckar, die Baden-Württembergs...

winnehermann.de

Here, as Bigchris notes, your confusion is probably that you recorded the vehicle number 435228 from an intermediate vehicle of Br* 425 unit 425228 - because the driving vehicles are considered to be Br 425 but the intermediate vehicles are in Br 435. The full composition of that unit is vehicles 425228-435228-435728-425728.

* = Br being Baureihe, which can be read as Class, although "Construction Series" is the more literal translation.

Finally, I have "4683 ICE" noted; this doesn't match up with anything in my book. Although, as I'm typing this, a thought has popped into my head: could it be 406083?

I think this one probably confirms the number 406083 though? - https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2J3MF9J/s...sterdam-the-netherlands-14-3-2022-2J3MF9J.jpg

Here, as atomicdanny's photo shows, you have recorded DB's internal Triebzug (multiple unit) number for the unit. This would be written as "Tz 4683", but it's correct to say 406083 would be the closest thing to a GB-style unit number. The fact that it appears in this photograph is coincidental, because it also happens to be the number for that particular vehicle. A photograph of the other driving vehicle would show 406563 instead.

In my notebook, I have 452084 and 452053 written down; however, I can't find any reference to these anywhere in my new book (ST Publications, German Units 2021). Neither can I find any reference to a class 452 on the internet. These would have been seen in Cologne Hbf; it's entirely possible that I've incorrectly written down some class 462s, but it very clearly says 452 in my notebook. Can anyone shed some light on this?

I think your 452s you noted were probably 422s. Class 422 units would work S-Bahn between Cologne and Dussledorf on routes S6 & S11, and the unit numbers you saw would be right for that area. Link to a photo here if you can remember what they looked like:

It's a possibility, but it was several months ago so I can't really remember! I'll probably just not bother with these mysterious class 452s, as there's no guarantee I'll put them in the correct place in the book. As you say, they could be class 422s, but they could also be class 462s...

I had a faint suspicion that these could be vehicles from the National Express Br 9442 fleet, but on reconsideration I believe their intermediate vehicles are numbered 9443nnn.

Br 422 units seem unlikely, as their intermediates are numbered as Br 432.

You may need to go back to Köln during daylight hours and try again

I imagine I'll find plenty more inconsistencies like this as I progress through 14 days of notes, given that this was my first European trip and I basically hadn't got a clue about how European numbering systems work! This thread will undoubtedly come in handy more than once!
Fortunately I fairly quickly realised when in Austria that class numbers are 4 digits not 3, so only had to prepend about half a dozen "1"s onto "116051" (for example)...

My practice is to record the full EVN of one of the driving vehicles wherever possible if I have any doubts, as it additionally encodes the interoperability type and register country (and the checkdigit is a handy guard against transcription errors), but then again I only log what I travel on and not everything I see.

 

[ABB125]

You need to be careful in that Germany doesn't really apply unit classes in the same way as you'd be used to in GB. Most notably, the majority of units don't display a single unit number.



Here, as Bigchris notes, your confusion is probably that you recorded the vehicle number 435228 from an intermediate vehicle of Br* 425 unit 425228 - because the driving vehicles are considered to be Br 425 but the intermediate vehicles are in Br 435. The full composition of that unit is vehicles 425228-435228-435728-425728.

* = Br being Baureihe, which can be read as Class, although "Construction Series" is the more literal translation.



Here, as atomicdanny's photo shows, you have recorded DB's internal Triebzug (multiple unit) number for the unit. This would be written as "Tz 4683", but it's correct to say 406083 would be the closest thing to a GB-style unit number. The fact that it appears in this photograph is coincidental, because it also happens to be the number for that particular vehicle. A photograph of the other driving vehicle would show 406563 instead.




I had a faint suspicion that these could be vehicles from the National Express Br 9442 fleet, but on reconsideration I believe their intermediate vehicles are numbered 9443nnn.

Br 422 units seem unlikely, as their intermediates are numbered as Br 432.

You may need to go back to Köln during daylight hours and try again


My practice is to record the full EVN of one of the driving vehicles wherever possible if I have any doubts, as it additionally encodes the interoperability type and register country (and the checkdigit is a handy guard against transcription errors), but then again I only log what I travel on and not everything I see.

Next time I'll have a better idea of what to expect, as I'm now familiar(ish) with (some of) the quirks of European numbering. Undoubtedly mistakes will still be made!

A few more questions, mostly about Italy:

• 4809 - this was a Frecciargento train seen east of Milan, but I can't work out how the number translates into something usable. I think it was one of the terrible trains built by AnsaldoBreda for the Dutch (or Danish, I can't remember which!)
• 711074 - I haven't the faintest idea what this is. It was seen at Milano Centrale
• 125007 - seen to the north of Milan on the way towards the Gotthard pass; I'm pretty sure it was Italian, though there's a small chance it could be Swiss
• I have a coach number of 93 85 5610 701-0, spotted at Milano Centrale (see picture). I'm pretty sure this is a Swiss EMU (I want to say it's some sort of pendolino), but can't find any coach numbers that match in my book.

And one about Czech Railjet sets: do these follow the same numbering pattern as the Austrian sets? Ie: fixed-formation, set number equal to the last two digits of the coach numbers etc?

Thanks