German Rail in decline ?

[dutchflyer]

German rail firm Deutsche Bahn plunges deeper into red – DW – 07/25/2024

The German rail company Deutsche Bahn saw heavy losses in the first part of 2024, with significantly fewer passengers catching long-distance trains. Some 30,000 jobs are set to be cut.

www.dw.com

The German rail company Deutsche Bahn saw heavy losses in the first part of 2024, with significantly fewer passengers catching long-distance trains. 30,000 jobs are set to be cut.

Though further news here stated this could all (easily!) be done with ´natural flow´ (those quitting anyway, go into pension etc.) and would mostly be administrative jobs. Expect many more still open+staffed ticket outlets (´Reisecenter´) te be closed.
Aside: just today (or yesterday) Lufthansa, the major long standing german Airline also stated it had to make significant cuts in staff etc to get back into profit.

 

[rvdborgt]

So you would have to shell extra money for the IC ticket, which you would then claim back?

Correct.

Seems odd - how would those doing the refunding know that you also held a HVV ticket and that the reason for purchasing the IC was the cancellation, rather than that you’d left the other ticket at home or similar?

You provide your HVV ticket. Data about delays and cancellations are available for those doing the refunds. The railways need to keep the data for at least one year IIRC for customer complaints.

 

[yorksrob]

Quote an example from the country you’re quoting as being streets ahead (and I would agree that in many places they are). Admittedly this was several years ago: Medium size town (Lueneburg) has a 2tph fast service to Hamburg and is in the HVV tariff area - so an HVV ticket to Hamburg is also valid on local transport once you get there (excellent so far). Problem is, one of those 2tph is IC - HVV tickets not valid (no exceeding possible either). The more expensive IC ticket is valid on the RE to Hamburg, but doesn’t include local travel once you get there - thus effectively reducing the service to 1toh once you’ve bought your ticket. If the RE was cancelled, tickets weren’t valid on the next IC - justification being the hourly stopper which also ran but effectively took as long to get you there as waiting for the next RE.

But presumably you could get a Bahn card discount on that ticket to begin with ?

 

[Richard Scott]

In Germany now, Deutsche Bahn as useless as ever. An ICE from Hamburg Altona was 20 late by Harburg station and losing more time as we go on.
On a train on Saturday, sat in what I thought was an unreserved seat as nothing showing (there were on some other seats) then someone gets on with a reservation for that seat. Definitely not last minute as she showed me her booking!
Almost every long distance train is late wherever I go.

 

[The exile]

But presumably you could get a Bahn card discount on that ticket to begin with ?

You could get a BC discount on the DB (IC) ticket, but not the HVV one. BC100 valid on both, of course.

 

[duesselmartin]

So you would have to shell extra money for the IC ticket, which you would then claim back? Seems odd - how would those doing the refunding know that you also held a HVV ticket and that the reason for purchasing the IC was the cancellation, rather than that you’d left the other ticket at home or similar?

in the end, the problem is that it is not an integrated concern anymore. DB Fernverkehr are on a different ledger than regional services. The former has to make a profit, the latter does not.
I guess you have/had a similar situation in the UK after privateisation in the UK where two different TOCs don't recognise each others tickets.

 

[The exile]

in the end, the problem is that it is not an integrated concern anymore. DB Fernverkehr are on a different ledger than regional services. The former has to make a profit, the latter does not.
I guess you have/had a similar situation in the UK after privateisation in the UK where two different TOCs don't recognise each others tickets.

Normally only for train specific tickets and special promotions (Gatwick Express restrictions being a notable exception). A flexible ticket from A to B is valid on all services from A to B - the IC vs Regional differential does not apply. Open access operators are different, but they are usually “extras” on top of the basic timetable.

 

[yorksrob]

You could get a BC discount on the DB (IC) ticket, but not the HVV one. BC100 valid on both, of course.

I'm guessing BC100 is the more expensive version with more benefits ? If I were introducing something similar here, I'd probably just have that with discounts on the card for disadvantaged groups.

in the end, the problem is that it is not an integrated concern anymore. DB Fernverkehr are on a different ledger than regional services. The former has to make a profit, the latter does not.
I guess you have/had a similar situation in the UK after privateisation in the UK where two different TOCs don't recognise each others tickets.

Normally only for train specific tickets and special promotions (Gatwick Express restrictions being a notable exception). A flexible ticket from A to B is valid on all services from A to B - the IC vs Regional differential does not apply. Open access operators are different, but they are usually “extras” on top of the basic timetable.

I seem to recall that the public outcry over the various loony-tunes proposals for privatisation in the UK was so great, that the Government was forced to retain a core system of integrated ticketing

 

[The exile]

I'm guessing BC100 is the more expensive version with more benefits ? If I were introducing something similar here, I'd probably just have that with discounts on the card for disadvantaged groups

BC100 is effectively a 1 year all-liner including most local transport in urban areas. Not absolutely everything though - I got caught out once or twice.

 

[yorksrob]

BC100 is effectively a 1 year all-liner including most local transport in urban areas. Not absolutely everything though - I got caught out once or twice.

Yeah, we could do with that.

 

[johncrossley]

With the BahnCard 100, you now get a free Deutschland Ticket included, so it is now valid on virtually all local transport in the country.

 

[AdamWW]

Normally only for train specific tickets and special promotions (Gatwick Express restrictions being a notable exception). A flexible ticket from A to B is valid on all services from A to B - the IC vs Regional differential does not apply. Open access operators are different, but they are usually “extras” on top of the basic timetable.

I'm pretty sure that open access operators also accept non operator specific tickets. (Heathrow Express aside).

I'm not aware of any other European country that does this.

(As an aside, I was amused to see a display screen in Berlin Hauptbahnhof recently warning passengers that they shouldn't board the approaching Flixtrain without a Flixtrain ticket...then, since it was terminating, that passengers shouldn't board it at all).

 

[rg177]

Made the mistake of travelling from Horb to Freiburg (Briesgau) this morning while a Stuttgart vs Freiburg football match is on.

Horb to Rottweil was an IC (that functions as an RE to Singen/Schaffhausen) and it was so busy that I ended up sat in the luggage rack in First Class (with a First Class ticket).

Rottweil to Villingen was a single-car RS1 unit that was crushloaded on departure and left people behind all the way along the line, as well as leaving some on for longer than they'd hoped!

Then Villingen to Titisee (where I forced my way off) was a three-car 1440 unit. I managed to get a First Class seat (second was busy but not totally full) but all bets were off by the next stop where it became crushloaded in both classes. It was announced that FC was declassified (sensible!) but we were still leaving folk behind. Also not helped that alongside the football fans, everyone else was insistent upon ramming their bikes on board for a day out in the countryside. The conductor pleaded with people over the PA to stop but that was all on deaf ears.

It's a beautiful day so I can't say I'm surprised, but something I wish I'd avoided!

Punctuality so far is at least fairly tolerable (which is more than can be said for SNCF Grand Est) Only noticeable issue so far on my trip was SWEG binning roughly every other service between Kehl and Strasbourg.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Travelled between Berlin and Munich today
Was supposed to be on the 11.04 ICE 1107, however this was cancelled due to operational reasons, almost all other trains lack seats, so am booked onto the 13:04 ICE 1109, which arrived on time.
What was interesting was that the 12:04 ICE to Munich, was delayed by over an hour and I believe my ICE arrived into Munich after it, well it at least arrived into Nuremberg before it

 

[rvdborgt]

Travelled between Berlin and Munich today
Was supposed to be on the 11.04 ICE 1107, however this was cancelled due to operational reasons, almost all other trains lack seats, so am booked onto the 13:04 ICE 1109, which arrived on time.
What was interesting was that the 12:04 ICE to Munich, was delayed by over an hour and I believe my ICE arrived into Munich after it, well it at least arrived into Nuremberg before it

As to seats, I'd just have taken my chances with the next train, even if DB claim it's fully booked. You can almost always find a seat on your own, most likely on the bahn.comfort seats, which are almost never booked. Also, regular reservations are closed a certain time before a train leaves from its origin station and after that, only the express reservation seats are available (if not already booked).

 

[FlyingPotato]

As to seats, I'd just have taken my chances with the next train, even if DB claim it's fully booked. You can almost always find a seat on your own, most likely on the bahn.comfort seats, which are almost never booked. Also, regular reservations are closed a certain time before a train leaves from its origin station and after that, only the express reservation seats are available (if not already booked).

I was travelling in a group of 3, and we wanted to be together so this was easiest

 

[Goldfish62]

Just back in the UK after a week in Germany, with train travel there and back. Surprisingly, given past experiences, punctuality was almost faultless, with a maximum of 14 delays minutes clocked up over about 13 hours of travel consisting of 4 ICE journeys. That's really rather good!

Reservations were a bit of a shambles, though. Cologne - Hannover DB moved the Cologne stop from Hbf to Messe/Deutz and forced us on to an earlier train (which they subsequently further retimed), also cancelling our reservations without refund at the same time. Because the train was busy I'm glad I paid for another set of reservations. I shall try to claim this back.

Dresden - Frankfurt the train type was changed and only one of 6 reservations was transferred, with the other 5 cancelled without refund. We spent most of the journey playing musical chairs as last-minute reservations for intermediate stops kept appearing en route. This despite the app not letting us re-reserve seats at Dresden due to the train being "fully booked".

Two of the journeys we made were in 1st Class (including on the very comfortable ICE3 Neo). On both journeys while the usual coffee was offered there was no other at-seat service for drinks and meals offered. I'm wondering if at-seat service for 1st Class is quietly being withdrawn.

 

[rvdborgt]

Reservations were a bit of a shambles, though. Cologne - Hannover DB moved the Cologne stop from Hbf to Messe/Deutz and forced us on to an earlier train (which they subsequently further retimed), also cancelling our reservations without refund at the same time. Because the train was busy I'm glad I paid for another set of reservations. I shall try to claim this back.

You're always entitled to get a refund of service not delivered, e.g. non-existant reservations.

Dresden - Frankfurt the train type was changed and only one of 6 reservations was transferred, with the other 5 cancelled without refund. We spent most of the journey playing musical chairs as last-minute reservations for intermediate stops kept appearing en route. This despite the app not letting us re-reserve seats at Dresden due to the train being "fully booked".

Fully booked means there's no seat available for the full length of the journey. Often you can find a seat for part of the journey, and then another seat for another part of the journey. In such cases, I often go for the BahnBonus seats (the carriage is indicated in the DB app). They are almost never booked and although status holders can chase you away, this hardly ever happens.

Two of the journeys we made were in 1st Class (including on the very comfortable ICE3 Neo). On both journeys while the usual coffee was offered there was no other at-seat service for drinks and meals offered. I'm wondering if at-seat service for 1st Class is quietly being withdrawn.

That service has become hit and miss unfortunately.

 

[Goldfish62]

Fully booked means there's no seat available for the full length of the journey. Often you can find a seat for part of the journey, and then another seat for another part of the journey. In such cases, I often go for the BahnBonus seats (the carriage is indicated in the DB app). They are almost never booked and although status holders can chase you away, this hardly ever happens.

Thanks for the info. We sat in "ggf freigeben" seats, which I gather are for possible last-minute reservations made en route, hence why some changed from this message to actual reservations during the journey. Personally I'd have thought that DB should have honoured reservations made in advance and instead reduced the number of "last-minute" reservation seats available.

That service has become hit and miss unfortunately.

When I went to the buffet on the Neo I noticed how small the entire servery/food preparation area was and one of the three staff was having a right old rant about the lack of space! So possibly he didn't really want to encourage more food orders by inviting these from 1st Class passengers.

 

[stuu]

Two of the journeys we made were in 1st Class (including on the very comfortable ICE3 Neo). On both journeys while the usual coffee was offered there was no other at-seat service for drinks and meals offered. I'm wondering if at-seat service for 1st Class is quietly being withdrawn.

I did 4 journeys in first class on ICEs in the Summer, the at-seat service only existed in the sense that you could order things via the website, no one came and offered anything at any point

 

[Goldfish62]

I did 4 journeys in first class on ICEs in the Summer, the at-seat service only existed in the sense that you could order things via the website, no one came and offered anything at any point

I didn't know you could order via the ICE Portal. Presumably though it means paying while connected via the insecure open WiFi connection? Not something I'd be comfortable with.

 

[DanielB]

Often the ICE portal says "at seat ordering is currently not available".
That's often the case on busy trains or when there is limited staff.

 

[duesselmartin]

Seat service does still exist if the staff gets around to it. DB had chronik staff shortages adding to their problems.

As to DB compared to elsewhere. I am currently in Tirol. Stations are tidy. No graffiti. Trains are clean both interior and exterior. Punctual.

Exeptians are the diagrams from Garmisch Partenkirchen which are DB run.

 

[stuu]

I didn't know you could order via the ICE Portal. Presumably though it means paying while connected via the insecure open WiFi connection? Not something I'd be comfortable with.

No, you pay the staff member when it is delivered, and there is a choice of card or cash

 

[Goldfish62]

No, you pay the staff member when it is delivered, and there is a choice of card or cash

Ah right, thanks. Will see if I can use it next time!

 

[E94]

I had a fun weekend clocking up delays around Frankfurt, Darmstadt and Mannheim during a trip to see the Tram competition. One train was 3 early at final destination (17:10 Elmstein to Neustadt). My S-bahn from the airport to Frankfurt was almost on time, and every other train I used was delayed. The worst was the S2 I‘d planned to get to Neustadt or Lambrecht, it sat occupying gleis 1 in Mannheim for the best part of 30 minutes due to staff shortages. On another delayed train I had the experience of watching the DB app tell me my connection probably wouldn’t be made, to going back to telling me I would catch my connection, as it’s departure time from it’s originating station came and went. In end caught with 4 minutes spare.
Final train of the trip was ICE102 from Mannheim to Köln Messe, which was almost punctual, delayed a mere 5 minutes because its platform in Cologne was occupied.
Overall, out of 9 trains taken, 6 were delayed more than 5 minutes with a cumulative total of 80 minutes.

 

[camflyer]

Interesting video on German rail investment plans

I was in Munich a few weeks ago and while their rail infrastructure is impressive it is also showing its age in terms of capacity, ageing rolling stock and reliability. The new cross-city tunnel and rebuilt Hauptbahnhof should make a difference when completed but currently the station is just a huge building site.

 

[duesselmartin]

lots of stations are a huge building site. Munich, Stuttgart, Duisburg. Frankfurt to follow soon.

Munichs re-vamp is expected to takes years however platform capacity is not reduced.

 

[camflyer]

lots of stations are a huge building site. Munich, Stuttgart, Duisburg. Frankfurt to follow soon.

Munichs re-vamp is expected to takes years however platform capacity is not reduced.

It was quite impressive who they kept Munich hauptbahnhof operating a full capacity considering that the entire front of the station had been knocked down.

 

[nwales58]

It was quite impressive who they kept Munich hauptbahnhof operating a full capacity considering that the entire front of the station had been knocked down.

Also the existing subway to S-Bahn, trams, walk towards Karlsplatz is not affected.

Stuttgart makes you choose between a 300-400m walk along a cold windy covered bridge around the building site to get to trams, buses etc. or a 300-400m wet windy walk around the other side.

Dreadful.