Getting off at a station intended for picking up only

[jimbo99]

Last night I travelled London Waterloo to East Croydon via Clapham Junction on Oyster.

I saw the 21:05 Poole service about to leave and boarded it (having sprinted past the "parked" portion). I have, on occasion, travelled East Croydon-Clapham Junction-Guildford on this service, so knew it stopped at Clapham.

As I gazed at the indicator, I thought it said the first stop was Woking. I asked the woman opposite me and she said it stopped at Clapham. I checked my phone (Waterloo departures) and it showed the first stop Woking. By now the train was moving. The computerised announcement confirmed this and said that "oyster cards, freedom passes etc" are not valid on this service. The guard then interrupted and made an announcement saying that the next stop was Clapham Junction. I got off at Clapham without a problem.

I'm curious to know, what was my status? I had no intent to avoid paying. I believed the train would stop at Clapham, the train was scheduled to stop at Clapham, and my Oyster was valid there. But of course, the service is not advertised to set down at Clapham.

If I'd found the guard, is there any ticket/excess he could have issued to regularise the journey. (Pay to Woking and then back to Clapham??) No doubt he would have said don't worry this time. But what do the rules say?

 

[NSEFAN]

I believe in the case of the SWT services which call at Clapham Junction, they are booked to call there for pickup and set down in the TRUST schedules, but aren't announced as such in order to get passengers for Clapham to use the suburban services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Officially a ticket to CLJ is not valid, but I'm not sure there's legal precedent on whether a prosecution would succeed, simply because there is no fare for that train to CLJ that you could have paid, and a fare to the next stop is not a fare to CLJ.

I suspect you'd just get "don't do it again". It only seems to be Watford Junction where there's strong enforcement (e.g. Stockport to Manchester on VT when it was u/s it wasn't enforced at all). Mainly it's about avoiding crowding-out by short distance passengers.

 

[Kite159]

I believe in the case of the SWT services which call at Clapham Junction, they are booked to call there for pickup and set down in the TRUST schedules, but aren't announced as such in order to get passengers for Clapham to use the suburban services.

Mainline are pick up on the way out of Waterloo to get passengers to use suburban services, however inbound to Waterloo they are a regular call, just not advertised on the platforms [I think the only place is on the "Next London Departures" screens]

 

[NSEFAN]

Mainline are pick up on the way out of Waterloo to get passengers to use suburban services, however inbound to Waterloo they are a regular call, just not advertised on the platforms [I think the only place is on the "Next London Departures" screens]

My mistake, I had misread the schedules on RTT. In summary, if the public timetable says it's arrival (set down) or departure (pick up) only then that's what the ticketing will follow.

 

[bb21]

If enforced, you can be charged a Penalty Fare as you have no valid ticket for travel on this service.

More often than not, this is not enforced, as no revenue check is normally performed between Waterloo and Clapham Junction, so you can get away with it most of the time.

You run more risk of something happening last minute and the service running non-stop to the next station. This is especially true of late-night services. Happened a few times recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If enforced, you can be charged a Penalty Fare as you have no valid ticket for travel on this service.

Ah yes, PFs are the outrider, as they are charged for *holding no valid ticket* by the railway's definition.

You could possibly get a Byelaw prosecution if you pushed for it (as that refers to holding a valid ticket[1]), but not I imagine RoRA because that refers to having paid the correct fare, which could hardly be argued if there *isn't* a correct fare.

I'd be interested to know if this has ever been attempted successfully, or if the judge would have laughed it out of court with something like "But Mr Passenger travelled on your train which ran from a London terminal to Clapham Junction with an Anytime Single ticket from London Terminals to Clapham Junction - how do you propose that he does not hold a valid ticket?"

 

[bb21]

I am not aware of any case law, and tbh unless the train is very busy, no one is really going to care that an additional few people used it to complete their journey than the red trains a few platforms along the way. Thinking about it, it could even save the industry some marginal Delay Repay compensation money.

If the train is itself very busy, sooner or later the offending passenger will find karma for adding to the level of overcrowding, as some Reading commuters on the "pick-up only" service found out a while back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not aware of any case law, and tbh unless the train is very busy, no one is really going to care that an additional few people used it to complete their journey than the red trains a few platforms along the way. Thinking about it, it could even save the industry some marginal Delay Repay compensation money.

If the train is itself very busy, sooner or later the offending passenger will find karma for adding to the level of overcrowding, as some Reading commuters on the "pick-up only" service found out a while back.

Indeed, stopping crowding out of busy trains is the main purpose of it. Only at Watford Junction does it seem to be enforced rather vigorously (as it indeed was in BR days), though this is more by way of people shouting at you to get back off than anything ticketing-related.

I've certainly seen people alighting at MKC from trains that are pick-up only there northbound in the peaks and nobody did a thing about it. Only the odd few try it, though, so the restriction serves its purpose adequately.

 

[furlong]

Last time I looked into this, if someone ignored set-down/pick-up only, I couldn't spot anything in the contractual terms/law etc. to provide for invalidity of the ticket, to prevent you joining/leaving the train, or to enforce any surcharge (as Neil Williams already pointed out). (Seemed to be another example of the industry fudging over a legal problem rather than working with lawyers to sort out and document the situation openly and unambiguously. If the 'u' and 's' annotations did turn out to be unenforceable, then the Consumer Rights stuff might even now render their current use unlawful...)

 

[jimbo99]

Thanks all for the replies. I don't need to be catching this service - this was rather a one-off error.

Inidentally, I remember some years back, many of the trains departing Victoria were shown as next stop East Croydon when really they were going to stop at Clapham Junction. Also at Gatwick, trains were shown as terminating at Clapham Junction in order to push you to the Gatwick Express for Victoria. GTR seems to have stopped this practice, at least on the routes I use.

 

[GW43125]

If I plan to get off at a pick-up only stop, I always ask the guard first-they may say yes, they may say no.

Getting on at SdO, you're not really on it long enough for it to matter.

 

[londonbridge]

I was doing an overnighter visiting a friend in Bristol. I found a cheap advance ticket on SWT from Clapham Junction to Temple Meads but could not find anything at a similarr pricefor the return leg. When I searched for Temple Meads to Waterloo I found an advance, but clicking on 'show calling points' indicated it didn't stop at Clapham. I booked it, deciding I would just use Oyster to get back from Waterloo, got to Temple Meads for the trip back and the departure board showed Clapham as a calling point, sure enough it stopped, I got off, swiped my Oyster in and returned to the platform for a train back to Croydon, no challenge from any member of staff.

 

[Kite159]

Thanks all for the replies. I don't need to be catching this service - this was rather a one-off error.

Inidentally, I remember some years back, many of the trains departing Victoria were shown as next stop East Croydon when really they were going to stop at Clapham Junction. Also at Gatwick, trains were shown as terminating at Clapham Junction in order to push you to the Gatwick Express for Victoria. GTR seems to have stopped this practice, at least on the routes I use.

Don't give GTR ideas for Gatwick Airport

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I suppose that it may be slightly off topic, but a few times I've needed to get from the Victoria area to the Waterloo area (and vice versa).

I haven't fancied going by Underground as I've mostly had a large case. So, I've swiped my Oyster card in at (say) Victoria, travelled down to Clapham Junction and then travelled up to Waterloo, scanning out there.

So, was this strictly legal as I wouldn't have had a ticket to travel?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oyster is a ticket?

 

[matt_world2004]

Arent vt notorious for prosecuting excessing tickets used on pick up and set down onky services.

 

[MikeWh]

I suppose that it may be slightly off topic, but a few times I've needed to get from the Victoria area to the Waterloo area (and vice versa).

I haven't fancied going by Underground as I've mostly had a large case. So, I've swiped my Oyster card in at (say) Victoria, travelled down to Clapham Junction and then travelled up to Waterloo, scanning out there.

So, was this strictly legal as I wouldn't have had a ticket to travel?

Of course that's legal. Victoria NR to Waterloo NR is a valid journey and that's the most logical way of travelling. There are not many journeys that aren't defined in the Oyster database and generally they are considered nonsensical. Things like Fenchurch Street NR to Tower Hill LU or journeys to a London NR Terminal on the opposite side of London.

 

[philthetube]

Easier and probable quicker to catch the 507 bus

 

[class387]

Another scenario:

The hourly Norwich - London is set down only at Stratford, but is advertised on the platforms as being the XX:XX service to Liverpool Street, with no mention of it being set down only.

Would I be right to get it? Quite a few people do get on>

 

[paddington]

Another scenario:

The hourly Norwich - London is set down only at Stratford, but is advertised on the platforms as being the XX:XX service to Liverpool Street, with no mention of it being set down only.

Would I be right to get it? Quite a few people do get on>

If it is advertised on the platforms as a service to Liv St, why should you be obliged to check another timetable in order to find out whether you are actually allowed to board?

 

[matt_world2004]

I can understand pick up only services as a way of balancing loadings however set down only seems a waste of capacity

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Of course that's legal. Victoria NR to Waterloo NR is a valid journey and that's the most logical way of travelling. There are not many journeys that aren't defined in the Oyster database and generally they are considered nonsensical. Things like Fenchurch Street NR to Tower Hill LU or journeys to a London NR Terminal on the opposite side of London.

Ah, thank you - I thought that it was, but I also thought that it was worth checking to be on the safe side.

Easier and probable quicker to catch the 507 bus

Not necessarily with a large case, though! (But thanks for the advice.)

 

[alastair]

I can understand pick up only services as a way of balancing loadings however set down only seems a waste of capacity

It does however give added flexibility in that should the train be running early it does not have to "wait time".

 

[Joe Paxton]

Of course that's legal. Victoria NR to Waterloo NR is a valid journey and that's the most logical way of travelling. There are not many journeys that aren't defined in the Oyster database and generally they are considered nonsensical. Things like Fenchurch Street NR to Tower Hill LU or journeys to a London NR Terminal on the opposite side of London.

What would happen if one tried to use Oyster for a nonsensical journey such as that?

(I've done a little bit of experimenting over the years but never something like that!)

 

[Joe Paxton]

Inidentally, I remember some years back, many of the trains departing Victoria were shown as next stop East Croydon when really they were going to stop at Clapham Junction. Also at Gatwick, trains were shown as terminating at Clapham Junction in order to push you to the Gatwick Express for Victoria. GTR seems to have stopped this practice, at least on the routes I use.

Nothing to do with GTR - that practice would have stopped long ago in the early 90's when, in preparation for privatisation, Gatwick Express was set up as a 'shadow franchise', and the Network SouthCentral Train Operating Unit started to compete with GatEx for custom between Victoria and Gatwick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arent vt notorious for prosecuting excessing tickets used on pick up and set down onky services.

Prosecuting, or excessing?

They may well *ask* you to excess to the first set-down station. Many people would just pay if asked.

If you refuse, though, it is far from clear that a prosecution would succeed.

Are you aware of any case law? If so can you provide a reference to it?

 

[paddington]

What would happen if one tried to use Oyster for a nonsensical journey such as that?

(I've done a little bit of experimenting over the years but never something like that!)

You will probably get two maximum fares, but you might just get a Z1-Z1 fare.

When I had a Z1-Z2 travelcard, and did such nonsensical journeys, some of them did show up as valid journeys on Oyster history at ticket machines.

By valid journey, I mean that it showed as

STATION 1-STATION 2

instead of

STATION 1- ___
___ - STATION 2

 

[gray1404]

Prosecuting, or excessing?

They may well *ask* you to excess to the first set-down station. Many people would just pay if asked.

If you refuse, though, it is far from clear that a prosecution would succeed.

Are you aware of any case law? If so can you provide a reference to it?

I agree here. At the end of the day if you get off the train at the pick up only station then you have not actually traveled further then the destination on your ticket, so I fail to see how any prosecution would succeed.

 

[Bookd]

In the case of SWT it is highly unlikely that there would be a ticket check between Waterloo and CJ, and if you leave there the volume at the barriers is such that no-one whould know or care. There is the danger that the pick up only stop might be omitted and that you end up in Woking (or Exeter, if you fall asleep!).