GM Traincard and new NRCOT

[Mathew S]

According to the NRCoT:

14. Using a combination of Tickets
14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a
journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change
from one Ticket to another.
14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such
as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last
station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are
the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be
valid.
14.3 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will
be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets, and you cannot
use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except as set out in 14.1 above.
14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the
Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for
which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the
Conditions listed above.

Link: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

Now, I'm interested in the Greater Manchester Traincard which is a PTE product. The only terms and conditions I can find anywhere online are at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr93c0eaeb9d4653b48ac9b0307154fb.aspx and there is nothing there which excludes using this ticket in accordance with condition 14.2 above (ie. treats it as a season ticket).

I'm going to buy the Traincard rather than a point-to-point season ticket anyway, since for the journey I want to make it's actually cheaper. But what I'd be interested in finding out what is the general opinion of my analysis of the above.

What do you think?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A new version of the NRCoT was issued valid from 11th March, moving the old Condition 19 to be Condition 14, and changing it so it now reads:

Link: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

Now, I'm interested in the Greater Manchester Traincard which is a PTE product. The only terms and conditions I can find anywhere online are at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr93c0eaeb9d4653b48ac9b0307154fb.aspx and there is nothing there which excludes using this ticket in accordance with condition 14.2 above (ie. treats it as a season ticket).

I'm going to buy the Traincard rather than a point-to-point season ticket anyway, since for the journey I want to make it's actually cheaper. But what I'd be interested in finding out what is the general opinion of my analysis of the above.

What do you think?

The National Rail Conditions of Travel have read like this in Condition 14 since their introduction on the 1st October 2016 - nothing changed about this in the recent revamp. The change in the split-ticketing rules is good for some - such as your situation, whereby rover/ranger tickets are treated as season tickets - but bad for others, such as journeys which are only affordable by extending a season ticket with multiple other tickets. This is no longer permitted unless you stop at each split point, and is a significant disadvantage if, say, I wanted to go on a fast train to London from Stafford - as most are non-stop. There's also now a requirement for the ticket's validity to start/stop at the splitting point, whereas previously the only requirement was that the tickets covered the entire journey. This means that you can no longer overlap tickets.

 

[Mathew S]

The National Rail Conditions of Travel have read like this in Condition 14 since their introduction on the 1st October 2016 - nothing changed about this in the recent revamp. The change in the split-ticketing rules is good for some - such as your situation, whereby rover/ranger tickets are treated as season tickets - but bad for others, such as journeys which are only affordable by extending a season ticket with multiple other tickets. This is no longer permitted unless you stop at each split point, and is a significant disadvantage if, say, I wanted to go on a fast train to London from Stafford - as most are non-stop. There's also now a requirement for the ticket's validity to start/stop at the splitting point, whereas previously the only requirement was that the tickets covered the entire journey. This means that you can no longer overlap tickets.

Thanks for that, I must have been getting my Conditions mixed up. The Fares & Ticketing Guide still refers to Condition 19, I think, which was the source of my confusion. I've ammended my post to reflect that this isn't something which has been introduced in the latest update.
You're right, though, it's certainly a bonus for me in these specific circumstances, although it's certainly a loss for others.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The National Rail Conditions of Travel have read like this in Condition 14 since their introduction on the 1st October 2016 - nothing changed about this in the recent revamp. The change in the split-ticketing rules is good for some - such as your situation, whereby rover/ranger tickets are treated as season tickets - but bad for others, such as journeys which are only affordable by extending a season ticket with multiple other tickets. This is no longer permitted unless you stop at each split point, and is a significant disadvantage if, say, I wanted to go on a fast train to London from Stafford - as most are non-stop. There's also now a requirement for the ticket's validity to start/stop at the splitting point, whereas previously the only requirement was that the tickets covered the entire journey. This means that you can no longer overlap tickets.

It's worth noting that what the NRCoT says and what will actually be enforced may not necessarily tally! In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that there are ticket sellers and checkers who've never received a briefing about the change from the NRCoC to NRCoT and are still applying the old Condition 19 rules for combinations of tickets.

I would also suggest that, in most cases, you'd have no problems whatsoever with overlapping tickets or deviations (e.g. holding a ticket that's valid from A - C via B and a second ticket for a branch from B to D).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's worth noting that what the NRCoT says and what will actually be enforced may not necessarily tally! In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that there are ticket sellers and checkers who've never received a briefing about the change from the NRCoC to NRCoT and are still applying the old Condition 19 rules for combinations of tickets.

I would also suggest that, in most cases, you'd have no problems whatsoever with overlapping tickets or deviations (e.g. holding a ticket that's valid from A - C via B and a second ticket for a branch from B to D).

I agree, however I would not want to try it on with a prosecution-happy TOC. Best to find alternative ways around the extortionate prices they want you to pay...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, however I would not want to try it on with a prosecution-happy TOC. Best to find alternative ways around the extortionate prices they want you to pay...

I think the wording of Condition 14 is quite deliberate and is intended to allow you to buy a ticket to extend a season ticket occasionally (for instance, a Bletchley to Euston season ticket holder wishing on an odd occasion to travel to Milton Keynes Central instead), and to buy a ticket to get into a zonal ticket area like you can with Travelcards, but is not intended to allow saving money by splitting (unless the train stops there, which they would like to stop but due to legal precedent can't).

I think its precise wording (barring overlaps, for instance) does that very well if followed to the letter.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I think the wording of Condition 14 is quite deliberate and is intended to allow you to buy a ticket to extend a season ticket occasionally (for instance, a Bletchley to Euston season ticket holder wishing on an odd occasion to travel to Milton Keynes Central instead), and to buy a ticket to get into a zonal ticket area like you can with Travelcards, but is not intended to allow saving money by splitting (unless the train stops there, which they would like to stop but due to legal precedent can't).

Having had sight of the draft version of the NRCoT, the intention appears to have been to keep the old Condition 19 as it was, but with simpler language. As we know, that's not what made it into the final version, however...and that's generally to the passenger's benefit.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Having had sight of the draft version of the NRCoT, the intention appears to have been to keep the old Condition 19 as it was, but with simpler language. As we know, that's not what made it into the final version, however...and that's generally to the passenger's benefit.

I'd be very interested in seeing that draft version, or any comments surrounding the changes intended to be made between condition 19 and condition 14.