Go North East

[Andyh82]

Out of the X Lines service, only the X20 was a new service, all the others have just been rebranded, previously known as Castles Express, Red Arrow, Toonlink, Red Kite, X9/X10, Fast Cats, Tynedale Express etc.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm surprised why they haven't tried venturing further north after Ashington (just finding out on this thread), or even further afield to Carlisle, would it be down to competition? I guess that after Hexham its pretty much a Stagecoach/Arriva corridor and if GNE were to go that way it be too much?

Arriva already have their Sapphire services X21/X22 running (in normal times) every 10 minutes between Newcastle and Ashington. GNE did operate in the past on the Blyth to Newcastle corridor in competition and that led to the route exchange/peace deal whereby the got the Arriva depot at Hexham.

West of Hexham, the 685 runs through some very thin territory; only when you reach Brampton is there much traffic and Stagecoach also run (in normal times) an additional hourly service to create a 30 min headway over that section. It just isn't worth it.

For me when I visited Durham, I went by bus from Newcastle (an hour?), then the following visit I took the train.

Depends on how young you are, how fit you are, and exactly where you're going.

Newcastle Central Station is a good 10 min walk from the main shopping area (Northumberland St/Eldon Square) whereas the X21 gets straight to Eldon Square, whilst Durham station is obviously a 5 min walk up a pretty steep hill. For quite a few, the X21 makes more sense.

For Newcastle to Durham it's pretty comparable off-peak (the bus wins but by less than £1). But if you're going to Bishop Auckland the bus is much cheaper and saves you the hassle of going to Darlington.

Bishop to Newcastle is a long established service, albeit it used to use the Nevilles Cross bypass rather than going via Durham and so is considerably slower.

I don't know how many bother end to end but it does provide a number of overlapping flows so West (Auckland) to Durham, Spenny etc to County Hall/Hospital, Durham to Framwellgate Moor to Chester le Street, etc

 

[cnjb8]

Not sure when I first noticed it, but the company has, or at least had such a good reputation for being innovative and branding focused, you really weren't surprised they had done it. It was like, wow, that's cool, wonder why noone else has done that, but, well, of course they would, that's such a GNE baller move.

If the primary colour of X-Lines is gold, then it would have been sensible to spec a gold LED display, no? Unless, of course, they kind of already know there's a good chance X-Lines won't last, or worse, they're being cheap and trying to avoid higher costs when it comes to refurb/cascade time.

edit: perhaps they have blown all their lightshow budget on the rather pointless Voltras. I think it's been long enough that the public know there is some kind of association between electricity and light. Made it even worse that they've made it look like an 80s neon sign!

Gold would look terrible on a destination screen, better to stick with white so people can actually read it (although cameras seem to have trouble with them to be fair).
Considering the investment X-Lines has received, I think it'll be around for some time.
Voltra is simply advertising that the buses used are electric.
I'm guessing you don't like GNE and I'm not sure why based on what you've said

 

[Eyersey468]

I've heard 6118-21 are finally coming to East Yorkshire this weekend, can anyone confirm this?

 

[MackTen]

Gold would look terrible on a destination screen, better to stick with white so people can actually read it (although cameras seem to have trouble with them to be fair).
Considering the investment X-Lines has received, I think it'll be around for some time.
Voltra is simply advertising that the buses used are electric.
I'm guessing you don't like GNE and I'm not sure why based on what you've said

Right now, I am disliking how they have managed to fool people into thinking that they're not in the habit of chopping and changing brands if the buses being rebranded had cost a lot to begin with. They can, they have, and they do.

I am also disliking how people don't seem to realise that X-Lines is not the first time GNE has made a major investment in new and high spec vehicles, or indeed, that such a thing is the norm for them.

X-Lines and Voltra are retrograde steps, that seem to betray a shocking lack of institutional memory in the current management. In the eyes of people who have apparently not been paying that much attention, it has made GNE look like some amateur outfit, the sort of place where it's actually news that they're all about making major investments, be that in new or established technologies and specifications.

The fact that the X-Lines branding itself is, as many people have observed, is not exactly breaking new ground, yet has replaced some very unique and well recognised brands, only seems to confirm it. And other than the neon lighting effects, which are straight from the 1980s, there's not a lot that's very original about the Voltra paint scheme either.

Both X-Lines and Voltra have wiped out several long standing and useful brands, both directly and probably indirectly, and has created a wierd situation where travelling customers are apparently expected to know the difference between a technology route brand, a customer service brand, a route brand route brand, network brands, and a corporate livery. And understand that from time to time, they'll get none of those special brands on specially branded routes, just a bog standard corporate livery bus, probably once a day even, because, well, at any given time, half the fleet is in the shop getting repainted!

GNE's overall vehicle branding strategy has quite probably got to be the most complex in the entire country now, and their recent announcement of a regional colour scheme doesn't seem to improve that one bit, if as it seems, the individual route brands will be blended into it.

My issue is simple. If you have gone off universal route branding, as it appears they have, for whatever reason, then just do the right thing and replace it with a branding strategy that is cohesive and useful. But not before you have faced facts and accepted that for the vast and disparate GNE territory, you're going to struggle to come up with anything that was as good at bringing order to the red mush than universal route branding, and the people who have gotten very used to the benefits of branding, are going to wonder why you got rid of it.

 

[cnjb8]

I've heard 6118-21 are finally coming to East Yorkshire this weekend, can anyone confirm this?

I believe 6118 and 6119 are at Hull with the other two following shortly

Right now, I am disliking how they have managed to fool people into thinking that they're not in the habit of chopping and changing brands if the buses being rebranded had cost a lot to begin with. They can, they have, and they do.

I am also disliking how people don't seem to realise that X-Lines is not the first time GNE has made a major investment in new and high spec vehicles, or indeed, that such a thing is the norm for them.

X-Lines and Voltra are retrograde steps, that seem to betray a shocking lack of institutional memory in the current management. In the eyes of people who have apparently not been paying that much attention, it has made GNE look like some amateur outfit, the sort of place where it's actually news that they're all about making major investments, be that in new or established technologies and specifications.

The fact that the X-Lines branding itself is, as many people have observed, is not exactly breaking new ground, yet has replaced some very unique and well recognised brands, only seems to confirm it. And other than the neon lighting effects, which are straight from the 1980s, there's not a lot that's very original about the Voltra paint scheme either.

Both X-Lines and Voltra have wiped out several long standing and useful brands, both directly and probably indirectly, and has created a wierd situation where travelling customers are apparently expected to know the difference between a technology route brand, a customer service brand, a route brand route brand, network brands, and a corporate livery. And understand that from time to time, they'll get none of those special brands on specially branded routes, just a bog standard corporate livery bus, probably once a day even, because, well, at any given time, half the fleet is in the shop getting repainted!

GNE's overall vehicle branding strategy has quite probably got to be the most complex in the entire country now, and their recent announcement of a regional colour scheme doesn't seem to improve that one bit, if as it seems, the individual route brands will be blended into it.

My issue is simple. If you have gone off universal route branding, as it appears they have, for whatever reason, then just do the right thing and replace it with a branding strategy that is cohesive and useful. But not before you have faced facts and accepted that for the vast and disparate GNE territory, you're going to struggle to come up with anything that was as good at bringing order to the red mush than universal route branding, and the people who have gotten very used to the benefits of branding, are going to wonder why you got rid of it.

Actually that's understandable, X-Lines did replace some notable brands. But then give it a few years and maybe X-Lines will become just as notable? It's hard to tell at the moment

 

[darloscott]

I believe 6118 and 6119 are at Hull with the other two following shortly

Actually that's understandable, X-Lines did replace some notable brands. But then give it a few years and maybe X-Lines will become just as notable? It's hard to tell at the moment

In my opinion the XLines concept is what the network has been needing for a while, a cohesive network of express services overlaid on top of your town and/or slower local buses. Yes a few strong brands have been lost in the process but I'd argue there's only the Red Arrows and Red Kite that fit that definition, the rest were all a bit weak and not widely known.

As for the branding as a whole, I think we should give them time to complete what is still a work in progress, once completed I think there will be a better idea of how each area works together. It is a shame they can't come up with a brand for the local 'town' networks though, Little Pinks and Little Coasters is all a bit lacking something stronger. I wonder what they have in mind for the Peterlee network.

 

[MackTen]

You can expose the weakness of the X-Lines concept, with just a few pertinent questions......

* Is it actually an arterial express network overlaid on the GNE territory?

No. There are HUGE chunks without an X-Line at all. An entire fare zone even (North Tyneside). As well much of South Tyneside, and the south side of the Tyne Valley.

* Is it about attracting car users?

No. Some of the publicity claims it was aimed at replicating the directness and thus speed of a person making the same journey in a car. With no hint of irony, it also then talks about the lovely detour off a dual carriageway of one of them, to serve two nice little villages. These X-Lines are still as direct and also indirect as they have ever been in their former lives, being indirect in the areas where someone had long ago decided there is more money to be made from serving a village, than bypassing it. Twas ever thus. A bus is not a car.

It is also suggested it had been designed to highlight those corridors without a rail connection. The publicity piece that says this, also apparently doesn't see the irony in trumpeting how CLE/Durham to Newcaslte is a flagship route, or acknowledge that trains from Newcastle serve Hexham and Middlesbrough too.

* Is it cohesive?

No. I can see nothing that ties together the assorted implementation here. Most are double deckers, except, bizarrely, the only route that actually created a new connection, which is a SOLO, and the one with proper interurban coaches.

There's a publicity shot out there of the backs of just one of the new fleets, but apparently it's on all of them, and every single bus has a different message, a different reason why you need to use an X-Line. You'll recognise them all, from any new bus anywhere, from convenient fares and bus tracking, to taking you to the shops. A mix of old and new, but nothing that is either new for GNE, or particularly defining for X-Lines.

* Was it about trumpeting a step change in vehicle spec?

No. Other than bike racks on a couple of the services, as far as I can tell, all the features that supposedly define an X-Lines service, have already been introduced on other routes. This is why the Castles Express conversion simply involved repainting the buses only recently bought for it.

* Was it a simplification of the core fast inerurban route network in any way, that actually highlights fast and direct connections?

No. The network is largely the same. There's publicity out there that talks of the combined frequencies of routes with different numbers and even entirely different routes to get from one interchange point to another, as if that would remotely attract a car driver.

It is hard to overstate, for those not in the know, just how little of this concept, is actually new for GNE, and how much of it would have happened in due course, X-Lines or no X-Lines. This is what they do. High spec, comfortable buses, promient branding, all targeting car drivers or other non-traditional users, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater, picking up the old grannies in the former mining villages so they can get to their rellies, or to Fenwicks for tea and crumpets.

The only new thing here other than bike racks, which as said, is not even a universal (or even majority) feature of X-Lines, is the paint job. And that is perhaps the worst aspect of it. If, as we are apparently to believe, the branding colours of each individual corridor is important, why is it so hard to identify the buses from the front? And why are some of the shades so similar? Nobody would judge you if you borrowed the palette from, say, the tube map. If a standalone network was what you were trying to highlight, as it appears it was.

If it looks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it is a duck. Therefore, if it looks like all this was, was the dreaded "refresh", change for changes sake, then yes, that was what it is. And if anything has defined the mess the company has been in for years, it was burying genuine new innovations, in a sea of never ending rebranding for rebranding sake. Bike racks is a genuine innovation for GNE, and might attract significant new custom. You wouldn't really know that, from this scheme.

I think what we have here, is a pig in a poke. A sleight of hand. The old sold as the new. A retread.

This particular piece really did irritate me.....

A few lines on X-lines

Thursday 5th November 2020 I thought I’d take my last trip out before ‘Lockdown 2.0’ to an area of the country that’s seen excellent positive bus developments in recent months. So I fou…

www.google.com

While Arriva down grade or ditch their Sapphire and Max brands for key inter-urban routes, and Stagecoach abandon the high profile Gold brand, it’s good to see we still have forward looking bus companies developing excellent branding to encourage passengers to travel, and Go North East is up there leading the way.

I mean, come on. On what planet is it the case that Gold and Sapphire weren't in part inspired by the innovations of companies like GNE, if not GNE as the standout example, of the advantages to be had in making heavy use of branding, innovation and investment, to directly target car drivers.

No doubt Arriva and Stagecoach are abandoning their "premium" brands, because quite a lot of what apparently defines X-Lines, be that the vehicles, ticketing and tracking, is proper old hat, and they would presumably like the public to start recognising their standard corporate branding as a hallmark of a certain minimum standard.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No. There are HUGE chunks without an X-Line at all. An entire fare zone even (North Tyneside). As well much of South Tyneside, and the south side of the Tyne Valley.

At the risk of repeating oneself, the whole thing is about those corridors without a parallel rail/Metro service.

South side of the Tyne has a rail service. North Tyneside is dominated by the Metro, as is South Tyneside. There would be no point in having a fast link there as it could never compete against the Metro. The X84/X85 runs on the North side and along West Road and so does have a competitive advantage. This has been explained in some detail.

It is also suggested it had been designed to highlight those corridors without a rail connection. The publicity piece that says this, also apparently doesn't see the irony in trumpeting how CLE/Durham to Newcaslte is a flagship route, or acknowledge that trains from Newcastle serve Hexham and Middlesbrough too.

As has been explained, the X21 is competitive because of the peripheral nature of the stations and the specific links that it provides. Hexham is explained above - the route goes from Hexham to Newcastle as does the train but that is where the similarity ends.

As for Newcastle to Middlesbrough, the X Lines has (as for many years) had an advantage over the train. It either requires a change at Darlington OR the direct trains take longer than the bus. Not seeing the irony there?

There's a publicity shot out there of the backs of just one of the new fleets, but apparently it's on all of them, and every single bus has a different message, a different reason why you need to use an X-Line. You'll recognise them all, from any new bus anywhere, from convenient fares and bus tracking, to taking you to the shops. A mix of old and new, but nothing that is either new for GNE, or particularly defining for X-Lines.

I really can't see the problem - if those are the advantages/features, then that's what they are.

No. Other than bike racks on a couple of the services, as far as I can tell, all the features that supposedly define an X-Lines service, have already been introduced on other routes. This is why the Castles Express conversion simply involved repainting the buses only recently bought for it.

They are clearly aiming to stress the features of those services. That other services might have wifi or USBs is really neither here nor there.

No. The network is largely the same. There's publicity out there that talks of the combined frequencies of routes with different numbers and even entirely different routes to get from one interchange point to another, as if that would remotely attract a car driver.

The press releases have all focused on speed and comfort, trying to provide a viable alternative to driving.

Clearly you have some issues with the current regime. You mention the changes from the Huntley era, with removal of brands being down to a lack of local knowledge without acknowledging that quite a number pre-date the arrival of Martijn Gilbert.

They were under the control of Kevin Carr - a man who worked for Northern for 40+ years! It was he who removed a number of brands - the loss of Fab 57, the Lambton Worm, Laser - introducing the all over red and then the red/blue livery with dull branding for routes like the 49. Again, this has been explained.

Arriva haven't ditched Sapphire - it is still one of their brands, even appearing on their revised, awful website. Stagecoach have abandoned virtually all of their branding with very few sub-brands tolerated.

Not really sure what else can be said without repeating ad nauseum and attracting the attention of the mods.

 

[MackTen]

As a grand play for car drivers, something that goes beyond what was already being done, it just doesn't scan. They can say that's what it was all about, but look at the end product, as they say. Does the branding convey that message as if it were central? Do the changes in vehicles, and the lack of any major changes in route, suggest this was what it was about?

If so, colour me unimpressed. GNE never used to be this unoriginal, it all really does show that these ideas have come from people who have done the same elsewhere, for operators with less experience in branding and less of a record in investment.

On the offside of the X85, there are no less than 6 different branding cues. Not one even comes close to conveying speed or directness. The one that speaks to comfort, is simply the word, "comfortable". You get a better cue what they actually mean, from being able to actually see through the windows, to notice that it has really nice seats! Credit to the interior designer for the two tone leather. Not an innovation for GNE though, of course.

Might be different messaging on the nearside, might be different on other services, and as previously said, what you see on the rear is a complete lottery. Cohesive? I think not.

GNE used to be the company that, if it wanted to get a specific message across, you got it. They understood that if you didn't get it in five seconds, then what was the point?

The Fab56 was big orange bus with a goofy hippy paint scheme on it. It was the only such bus within 100 miles. If you saw it in two places you usually drive between, or get a taxi or a lift between, you knew it was worth investigating whether it could meet your needs. I know this, because I did this.

I have done this many times, and it never much mattered whether it was a premium express, slow interurban, or a local hopper. It never even mattered if there was a rail corridor nearby, because it's a rare thing indeed to be able to make a train journey in the north east, without needing some other kind of transport at one or both ends.

Only slightly less rare on the Metro, hence why it was kind of neat to be able to look out over a Metro interchange and instantly know from the colours of the buses in residence, where you could get to from here. If that's all going, because it doesn't fit with a strategy adopted for their bus only areas, more the pity.

I did actually think I already said that maybe the reason Carr rolled back on them, was because he had always disliked the universal route branding, or it was his long standing experience with Northern that led him to prioritise operational issues over branding. Just because he did it, doesn't exactly justify why the current management have gone further.

I'm not wedded to universal branding. I recognise it has downsides. I just don't see what this does to provide a better replacement. It's a confused mess of mixed messages.

 

[Eyersey468]

I believe 6118 and 6119 are at Hull with the other two following shortly

Actually that's understandable, X-Lines did replace some notable brands. But then give it a few years and maybe X-Lines will become just as notable? It's hard to tell at the moment

Thanks, I saw on Facebook earlier that 6118/9 were now at Hull

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As a grand play for car drivers, something that goes beyond what was already being done, it just doesn't scan. They can say that's what it was all about, but look at the end product, as they say. Does the branding convey that message as if it were central? Do the changes in vehicles, and the lack of any major changes in route, suggest this was what it was about?

If so, colour me unimpressed. GNE never used to be this unoriginal, it all really does show that these ideas have come from people who have done the same elsewhere, for operators with less experience in branding and less of a record in investment.

On the offside of the X85, there are no less than 6 different branding cues. Not one even comes close to conveying speed or directness. The one that speaks to comfort, is simply the word, "comfortable". You get a better cue what they actually mean, from being able to actually see through the windows, to notice that it has really nice seats! Credit to the interior designer for the two tone leather. Not an innovation for GNE though, of course.

Might be different messaging on the nearside, might be different on other services, and as previously said, what you see on the rear is a complete lottery. Cohesive? I think not.

GNE used to be the company that, if it wanted to get a specific message across, you got it. They understood that if you didn't get it in five seconds, then what was the point?

The Fab56 was big orange bus with a goofy hippy paint scheme on it. It was the only such bus within 100 miles. If you saw it in two places you usually drive between, or get a taxi or a lift between, you knew it was worth investigating whether it could meet your needs. I know this, because I did this.

I have done this many times, and it never much mattered whether it was a premium express, slow interurban, or a local hopper. It never even mattered if there was a rail corridor nearby, because it's a rare thing indeed to be able to make a train journey in the north east, without needing some other kind of transport at one or both ends.

Only slightly less rare on the Metro, hence why it was kind of neat to be able to look out over a Metro interchange and instantly know from the colours of the buses in residence, where you could get to from here. If that's all going, because it doesn't fit with a strategy adopted for their bus only areas, more the pity.

I did actually think I already said that maybe the reason Carr rolled back on them, was because he had always disliked the universal route branding, or it was his long standing experience with Northern that led him to prioritise operational issues over branding. Just because he did it, doesn't exactly justify why the current management have gone further.

I'm not wedded to universal branding. I recognise it has downsides. I just don't see what this does to provide a better replacement. It's a confused mess of mixed messages.

Having explained at some length, I can't fathom what the issue actually is.

The X Lines is a consistent image - it has a commonality of style with different accent colours. The emphasis on "Fast" on each one, "Frequent, Rapid Links", that they are "Comfortable". That is the message that they are clearly pushing - it is consistent on each vehicle and on the press releases and web pages. When you say that the X85 doesn't mention speed, it does say "Fast to"....and then the main places on the route. "Might be different messaging on the nearside, might be different on other services, and as previously said, what you see on the rear is a complete lottery. Cohesive? I think not." Except that each X line, including X85, one has the same strapline "Frequent, Rapid Links from Go North East" on the rear and the same cues on the side of each bus. I honestly don't know how you can criticise it for a lack of consistency when there was none of that in the Huntley era. Seems a very odd hill on which to die.

"GNE used to be the company that if it wanted to get a specific message across".... what was the message of Pulse? Or IndiGo? Or Laser? Let alone the dealer white of Route 19. What was the consistent message that was being pushed by Lambton Worm, except that it was a bus service near Fatfield?

In the Carr era, the Fab 57 was lost to bland Citylink, and now the Fab 56 is lost to the equally bland Cityrider. I agree with you on those moves - something distinctive being lost in favour of something worse and less memorable. As @darloscott said, there is the loss of some strong brands like Red Kite but many of them were also not that hot. Picking out "East Durham" which had the straplines "Proud of our Mining Heritage" and "Working locally to provide quality bus services" - well, not certain what the former meant (as opposed to the rest of Co Durham) whilst not certain what is quality about being on an MPD bouncing through Pittington!

You seem to be holding the current management to standards that weren't applied in the past.

 

[MackTen]

I literally hadn't even noticed the "Frequent, Rapid Links" strapline. That shows how poor it is, if we are to believe this is the key message.

I think you're dreaming if you envision a time when a statement like 'sod the car, let's take the X-Line instead, it's fast and frequent and comfortable" is going to be a thing.

It won't. I know those people. I am those people. They are my family, friends and neighbours.

They were already aware that certain GNE services are pretty direct, because they tend to pick up on things like strong branding when they're following behind on a single carriageway road. They know these buses still divert into villages where deemed appropriate. They know they're still only limited stop where deemed convenient.

They certainly know they're still buses, and therefore have a good idea of where and when a car can actually be faster than them. All this is already common knowledge for those who might consider a bus, and ignored by those who never would, even if they were turbo charged and chrome plated and came with table service.

Gold paint had a place in Stagecoach, where it may have been news that standards were finally being raised in a consistent and targeted manner, with a clear market in mind. Here, it's just pointless, retrograde. Especially because standards for X-Lines are not consistent, not in vehicles or routes.

Worth noting the fleet has already had at least one gold livery, so not even that was novel. Another message that has to be unlearnt by the travelling public.

They're not even going to get to the point where they have any clue what the difference is between the light green, medium green and the dark green X-Line, or realise they're (and I am guessing, because who the hell knows) all green because they all link Consett and Newcastle.

I am holding this current lot to the previous standard, Huntley's vision. Their message was clear. Every bus route has a brand. From Go North East. It brings instantly clarity to the most important thing - where can you go, and would you have to change buses. The two most important things to car drivers, before they move on to matters of frequency, speed and comfort.

It was already widely known that if you were on a GNE bus, subject to the ordinary constraints of finance and fleet replacement, you were going to get the best available kit. Anything to tempt you out of your car, was already being done. Bike racks are literally the only innovation here. Strange way to tempt car users.

So what has changed? Did X-Lines bring improvements to the routes, are they any faster than was already scheduled? I think not. Have they actually gotten any faster or more direct? Clearly not, except in one almost insignificant part of the overall network.

Why isn't the X66 Gateshead-Metrocentre shuttle an X-Line? Is the slower and less direct X-Line that does connect Gateshead with Newcastle really meant to be conveyed as the bus they're meant to use, if they're wanting a transfer to the other X-Lines?

I couldn't explain to them what the difference is between an X-Line and the X66 even if I tried. Same for other reasonably fast and comfortable and direct services that exist on the network, some of which are X routes, some not. Including those which take advantage of things like bus priority schemes.

This is not a brand new express network, at least not as it would be conceived in a company which had set out to use investment to enhance services to specifically look very much like the route and speed of a car.

It's the same old same old. Everyone wants and express bus, a fast and direct service, but nobody wants to be passed at a bus stop, or left off the route map entirely. Well, X-Lines is the express service for those people. They're by and large, not car drivers as a rule.

 

[cnjb8]

I literally hadn't even noticed the "Frequent, Rapid Links" strapline. That shows how poor it is, if we are to believe this is the key message.

I think you're dreaming if you envision a time when a statement like 'sod the car, let's take the X-Line instead, it's fast and frequent and comfortable" is going to be a thing.

It won't. I know those people. I am those people. They are my family, friends and neighbours.

They were already aware that certain GNE services are pretty direct, because they tend to pick up on things like strong branding when they're following behind on a single carriageway road. They know these buses still divert into villages where deemed appropriate. They know they're still only limited stop where deemed convenient.

They certainly know they're still buses, and therefore have a good idea of where and when a car can actually be faster than them. All this is already common knowledge for those who might consider a bus, and ignored by those who never would, even if they were turbo charged and chrome plated and came with table service.

Gold paint had a place in Stagecoach, where it may have been news that standards were finally being raised in a consistent and targeted manner, with a clear market in mind. Here, it's just pointless, retrograde. Especially because standards for X-Lines are not consistent, not in vehicles or routes.

Worth noting the fleet has already had at least one gold livery, so not even that was novel. Another message that has to be unlearnt by the travelling public.

They're not even going to get to the point where they have any clue what the difference is between the light green, medium green and the dark green X-Line, or realise they're (and I am guessing, because who the hell knows) all green because they all link Consett and Newcastle.

I am holding this current lot to the previous standard, Huntley's vision. Their message was clear. Every bus route has a brand. From Go North East. It brings instantly clarity to the most important thing - where can you go, and would you have to change buses. The two most important things to car drivers, before they move on to matters of frequency, speed and comfort.

It was already widely known that if you were on a GNE bus, subject to the ordinary constraints of finance and fleet replacement, you were going to get the best available kit. Anything to tempt you out of your car, was already being done. Bike racks are literally the only innovation here. Strange way to tempt car users.

So what has changed? Did X-Lines bring improvements to the routes, are they any faster than was already scheduled? I think not. Have they actually gotten any faster or more direct? Clearly not, except in one almost insignificant part of the overall network.

Why isn't the X66 Gateshead-Metrocentre shuttle an X-Line? Is the slower and less direct X-Line that does connect Gateshead with Newcastle really meant to be conveyed as the bus they're meant to use, if they're wanting a transfer to the other X-Lines?

I couldn't explain to them what the difference is between an X-Line and the X66 even if I tried. Same for other reasonably fast and comfortable and direct services that exist on the network, some of which are X routes, some not. Including those which take advantage of things like bus priority schemes.

This is not a brand new express network, at least not as it would be conceived in a company which had set out to use investment to enhance services to specifically look very much like the route and speed of a car.

It's the same old same old. Everyone wants and express bus, a fast and direct service, but nobody wants to be passed at a bus stop, or left off the route map entirely. Well, X-Lines is the express service for those people. They're by and large, not car drivers as a rule.

x66 isn't part of X-Lines because it doesn't connect two different interurban areas, Metrocentre is in Gateshead

 

[MackTen]

x66 isn't part of X-Lines because it doesn't connect two different interurban areas, Metrocentre is in Gateshead

And do you think that matters to car drivers looking for quick access to the region's shops? Which is what X-Lines is apparently for.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I literally hadn't even noticed the "Frequent, Rapid Links" strapline. That shows how poor it is, if we are to believe this is the key message.

Your eyesight isn't their issue.

I am those people. They are my family, friends and neighbours.

Indeed - they are also my friends etc

.They certainly know they're still buses, and therefore have a good idea of where and when a car can actually be faster than them. All this is already common knowledge for those who might consider a bus, and ignored by those who never would, even if they were turbo charged and chrome plated and came with table service.

Marketing is aimed not at those who already know but those who don't. That's marketing for you

Especially because standards for X-Lines are not consistent, not in vehicles or routes.

They are consistent. Same standards except one route has Solos and one route has coaches.

Worth noting the fleet has already had at least one gold livery, so not even that was novel.

I doubt there's any colour that hasn't been used. Black? Pink?

Their message was clear. Every bus route has a brand. From Go North East. It brings instantly clarity to the most important thing - where can you go, and would you have to change buses.

Except it wasn't. Yes each route had a brand but no commonality of approach, expected standards etc. And there was no commonality of standards - the

It was already widely known that if you were on a GNE bus, subject to the ordinary constraints of finance and fleet replacement, you were going to get the best available kit.

I don't think that was always the case. The ex London tat that was on the Angel and Pronto was hardly the best available kit. In fact, in terms of consistency, it got worse when you had new 63 plate B5LHs running in parallel with V reg B7s that would well past their prime.

Did X-Lines bring improvements to the routes, are they any faster than was already scheduled? I think not. Have they actually gotten any faster or more direct? Clearly not, except in one almost insignificant part of the overall network.

They have simplified the routeing into Durham but many of these were already Expresses. However, many of the routes are most certainly existing routes. They are just being marketed differently. The Pronto service was quicker than the parallel slower services...yet never mentioned the speed advantage over those. Red Arrows was hardly shouting about its benefits "fast and frequent links into the heart of the city" so perhaps it's about being clearer.

Why isn't the X66 Gateshead-Metrocentre shuttle an X-Line?

Because it's clearly not an inter-urban route and the average passenger journey length wouldn't justify the bells and whistles of USBs and extra spec seating for a 10 min journey.

This is not a brand new express network, at least not as it would be conceived in a company which had set out to use investment to enhance services to specifically look very much like the route and speed of a car.

I don't think anyone thinks it is a brand new express network. It's about enhancements of standards over certain routes. I've not had chance to experience the X84 yet (bloody pandemic) but I suspect the standard is better than a 9 year old Citaro, which in turn, was better than a 9 year old Solar.

 

[cnjb8]

And do you think that matters to car drivers looking for quick access to the region's shops? Which is what X-Lines is apparently for.

It's not X-Lines because it doesn't connect two different urban areas, no matter what, as I've already said and as have other users.

 

[MackTen]

Your eyesight isn't their issue.

Indeed - they are also my friends etc

Marketing is aimed not at those who already know but those who don't. That's marketing for you

They are consistent. Same standards except one route has Solos and one route has coaches.

I doubt there's any colour that hasn't been used. Black? Pink?

Except it wasn't. Yes each route had a brand but no commonality of approach, expected standards etc. And there was no commonality of standards - the

I don't think that was always the case. The ex London tat that was on the Angel and Pronto was hardly the best available kit. In fact, in terms of consistency, it got worse when you had new 63 plate B5LHs running in parallel with V reg B7s that would well past their prime.

They have simplified the routeing into Durham but many of these were already Expresses. However, many of the routes are most certainly existing routes. They are just being marketed differently. The Pronto service was quicker than the parallel slower services...yet never mentioned the speed advantage over those. Red Arrows was hardly shouting about its benefits "fast and frequent links into the heart of the city" so perhaps it's about being clearer.


Because it's clearly not an inter-urban route and the average passenger journey length wouldn't justify the bells and whistles of USBs and extra spec seating for a 10 min journey.

I don't think anyone thinks it is a brand new express network. It's about enhancements of standards over certain routes. I've not had chance to experience the X84 yet (bloody pandemic) but I suspect the standard is better than a 9 year old Citaro, which in turn, was better than a 9 year old Solar.

My eyesight is their issue. I have used my eyes to their economic benefit before. I will not be using my eyes to try and distinguish whether the myriad of gold buses approaching me, is the one with the right shade of green or cerise. I am back to using route numbers.

Which means, as it did before route branding, I am back to not really considering using a GNE service I am not already intimately familiar with, which at the moment is ironically an X-Line which is no faster or more direct than it was when it was the only GNE service on that corridor.

It has new vehicles. Great. But please don't pretend like that has anything to do with whatever new strategy X-Lines is supposed to represent because it clearly doesn't. It had everything to do with their long standing commitment to investment, period.

That was the prior message. That was the consistency. If not new, then an upgrade. Is there a commitment that a rebrand to an X-Line will always indicate new kit? Bzzt. Already broken if it was.

Marketing is for people who don't know, sure. So find me someone who didn't know GNE runs buses, good buses, comfortable buses, clean buses, and some of those buses kind of sort of go the same route a car would go, and sometimes miss out stops to make the journey faster, but not always. And contacltess and tables and wifi and etc etc etc.

Find them, and I'll show you someone who probably wasn't paying attention to GNE well before X-Lines, and probably won't have noticed the pretty small branding cues in this mish mash of a new brand, which to the casual observer, frankly isn't going to look like anything but a case of, oh well, there they go, changing the colour of the buses again.

I feel sorry for people who can't get the relatively straightforward message of a brand like PRONTO, but for those people, well, guess what it said on the timetable marketing jazz? "Fast and direct to Newcastle and Sunderland".

I feel even sorrier for people who never noticed the big lettering on the roofline of the Tynedale Express, "Fast and direct to Newcastle and Hexham".

The Tyne Valey Ten features the words frequent and direct prominently in the brand, and lists the places visited.

You have alreay mentioned Red Arrows.

Sensing the message? Seeing the consistency? The route is the primary brand, fast and direct is a secondary message where it was a selling point.

I feel sorry for anyone who pays goog money to be told to use the same phrase they are already using on a bus, just use it smaller, and combine it with five other messaging cues, and call that an improvement in your marketing, as an alleged way to reach people you weren't already reaching.

You can't get more different than Solo and a coach. You can't get more inconsistent than having bikes on some routes, but not others. You can't get more inconsistent than the various different ways these disparate routes meet the goals of serving enough stops but with the right end to end speed.

You can't get more inconsistent than on the one hand, X-Lines being a fast shoppers bus from a random Derwent Valley village to the Metrocentre, and on the other, a commuter feeder for Durham or Hexham or Sunderland, and thirdly, an alternative to the Middlesbrough Newcastle railway service. Etc. Etc.

They literally aren't even all X prefix routes. Inconsistency baked right in.

We have identified only one concrete commonality in this network, thanks to the X66 example, the fact that there is an absence of concrete partway along each route, and they are quite long. Is that by design, or an accident? What, pray tell, is the reason Prudhoe (Tyne Valley Ten) residents don't warrant an X-Lines service? Oh yes, it's because they can use the train. The train that is already slower and less frequent and more grimy and smelly and devoid of convenience than the buses provided by.....GNE.

Is there any good reason, why the plentiful dual carriage ways and even motorways in the urban sprawl to the east, north and south of the river, cannot be branded an X-Line? Newcastle to Cobalt, is not exactly possible on the Metro.

What has X-Lines achieved, that's radically different? Best I can tell, is that for the first time in a very long time, every single bus that runs on a significant corridor, Consett to Newcastle, is now the same colour.

We're back to a situation where the actual numbers and your attention to fine detail, is pretty darn important, whether it's the 30, 31, 45, 46, 47, 70 or 71.

Easier to ignore it all, and just use the online timetables with their interactive maps. Is that feature advertised on the buses? No. Because it's just one of the many things GNE do as a relatively recent innovation, that are worth shouting about, that would attract car users because they make it easier to use the bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It has new vehicles. Great. But please don't pretend like that has anything to do with whatever new strategy X-Lines is supposed to represent because it clearly doesn't. It had everything to do with their long standing commitment to investment, period.

Sorry but that's demonstrably not true in some instances, and misleading in others. The X84/X85 has never had new vehicles. No one is saying that GNE have not invested in new vehicles for certain routes.

I feel sorry for people who can't get the relatively straightforward message of a brand like PRONTO, but for those people, well, guess what it said on the timetable marketing jazz?

Yes, but your issues was the external messaging on the vehicles. What was the relatively straightforward message of Pronto? It must be very high frequency such as instantaeneous? Or did it serve Italy because of the Italian flag on there? And of course, it was replaced by the Castles Express.

In fact, you had Pronto running between Durham and Sunderland with the slower Prince Bishops - surely, by your measure, that would be inconsistent?

Sensing the message? Seeing the consistency? The route is the primary brand, fast and direct is a secondary message where it was a selling point.

No - that was the point. Different identities for different services, even ones that ran over common sections of route. You had Angel and Pronto running over the same route (as per Pronto and Prince Bishops) with markedly differing images, different ages of vehicles etc.

You can't get more different than Solo and a coach. You can't get more inconsistent than having bikes on some routes, but not others. You can't get more inconsistent than the various different ways these disparate routes meet the goals of serving enough stops but with the right end to end speed.

The interior spec is similar across the X Lines and the same product offering. The only difference is the Bike provision, and in that, I'm a bit dubious that it will be anything more than trouble.

You can't get more inconsistent than on the one hand, X-Lines being a fast shoppers bus from a random Derwent Valley village to the Metrocentre, and on the other, a commuter feeder for Durham or Hexham or Sunderland, and thirdly, an alternative to the Middlesbrough Newcastle railway service. Etc. Etc.

They are all fast links linking urban centres that don't have a parallel bus service.

Now sorry it irks you. There is little new under the sun in terms of bus operators and the X lines is not much more than a return to the old Expresslink network with a few new additions and a few losses.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

This is all getting a little deep. I am fairly new to the North East; and have started using Xlines X47 everyday for work. I can't speak for previous management and brands etc in detail however I appreciate the quality of vehicles on the route, whether it be a Streetdeck or MMC. This is certainly enforced when, on the odd occasion, a Red Kite B9 shows up with condensed windows and horrible interior.

Surely the game is won. I'm a customer, I like the service as do the others along the route when they realised they got new buses, I'm sure. That's that.

All I see is GNE trying to creat a solid, modern brand across multiple different corridors in which the commuters know what they are getting in terms of quality. In my opinion, a quality as good as your car interior (as it states on some of the branding). Ok the previous red kite branding may stand out more, but if I were car owner, I certainly wouldn't give up my comfort for a horrible interior and not being able to see out of the windows on cold mornings.

I know I would certainly rather an Xlines vehicle rather than a Stagecoach Gold or Arriva Sapphire bus, as from what I can tell are the same tat that those companies put out on the roads everyday just in a different (tacky) colourscheme.

 

[Stan Drews]

Is anyone able to summarise the last few pages of this thread into a couple of simple sentences, or maybe a few bullet points?
My head hurts trying to work out whatever points are trying to be put across in the numerous lenghy posts.
...any help will be greatly appreciated!!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is anyone able to summarise the last few pages of this thread into a couple of simple sentences, or maybe a few bullet points?
My head hurts trying to work out whatever points are trying to be put across in the numerous lenghy posts.
...any help will be greatly appreciated!!

He doesn't like the loss of Red Kite as his local bus service. Doesn't like the current management either.

 

[Andyh82]

This is all getting a little deep. I am fairly new to the North East; and have started using Xlines X47 everyday for work. I can't speak for previous management and brands etc in detail however I appreciate the quality of vehicles on the route, whether it be a Streetdeck or MMC. This is certainly enforced when, on the odd occasion, a Red Kite B9 shows up with condensed windows and horrible interior.

Surely the game is won. I'm a customer, I like the service as do the others along the route when they realised they got new buses, I'm sure. That's that.

All I see is GNE trying to creat a solid, modern brand across multiple different corridors in which the commuters know what they are getting in terms of quality. In my opinion, a quality as good as your car interior (as it states on some of the branding). Ok the previous red kite branding may stand out more, but if I were car owner, I certainly wouldn't give up my comfort for a horrible interior and not being able to see out of the windows on cold mornings.

I know I would certainly rather an Xlines vehicle rather than a Stagecoach Gold or Arriva Sapphire bus, as from what I can tell are the same tat that those companies put out on the roads everyday just in a different (tacky) colourscheme.

Those Red Kite B9s are not typical, they were dealer stock acquired to boost capacity at that time.

I don’t know if it was your intention, but it weakens arguments when people always go for the most extreme opposite example to make a point - the constant mentions of Route 19, Pronto and Pulse when dismissing route branding, rather than mentioning any of the more recent or more long running ones.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Those Red Kite B9s are not typical, they were dealer stock acquired to boost capacity at that time.

I don’t know if it was your intention, but it weakens arguments when people always go for the most extreme opposite example to make a point - the constant mentions of Route 19, Pronto and Pulse when dismissing route branding, rather than mentioning any of the more recent or more long running ones.

No - I’m actually a fan of route branding. Just trying to say that the Huntley era had a few duffers amongst the effective ones.

However, if the poster goes on about inconsistencies, well Pronto was one example of just that over two corridors.

I don’t think the current crew are getting it all right; there’s a balance to be recognised.

 

[Anvil1984]

Is anyone able to summarise the last few pages of this thread into a couple of simple sentences, or maybe a few bullet points?
My head hurts trying to work out whatever points are trying to be put across in the numerous lenghy posts.
...any help will be greatly appreciated!!

Basically Go North East have decided to market several of their long distances services as one brand (X-Lines) instead of the past policy where they were marketed separately (Red Kite, Castles Express amongst others)
They are now have new / refurbished buses painted gold and the routes are differentiated by a large band of colour on the back third.
This isn't the first time its been tried, in the late 80s / early 90s Go Ahead Northern (as they were at the time) had a few routes marketed as "ExpressLink" which carried over in the first split of the company into regional areas where the Newcastle to West County Durham buses where marketed as Superliner operated by Northern and the express buses to Sunderland / Seaham / Hartlepool where operated as Wear Express by Wear Buses

Basically its turned into a discussion over whats best. Marketing express routes individually on their locality or as a network of routes pointing out their enhanced features. The local non express routes to be honest are a mess and some change brands every 2 - 3 years no matter who the MD is, at times I think we should just go back to the 90s way of doing it

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Those Red Kite B9s are not typical, they were dealer stock acquired to boost capacity at that time.

I don’t know if it was your intention, but it weakens arguments when people always go for the most extreme opposite example to make a point - the constant mentions of Route 19, Pronto and Pulse when dismissing route branding, rather than mentioning any of the more recent or more long running ones.

I'm not sure comparing the previous vehicles to the (very) recent replacements is an 'extreme opposite' comparison?

And as I have stated, I cannot comment in detail about the history of brands around the area as I'm a fairly new here and still getting to grips with the network.

I love route branding, and would much prefer vehicles in Xlines/ or any branded livery to the rather insipid corporate red and blue, which when I first got here, out of naivety, thought this was an old livery that would be gradually phased out. I was wrong...

 

[Anvil1984]

We have identified only one concrete commonality in this network, thanks to the X66 example, the fact that there is an absence of concrete partway along each route, and they are quite long. Is that by design, or an accident? What, pray tell, is the reason Prudhoe (Tyne Valley Ten) residents don't warrant an X-Lines service? Oh yes, it's because they can use the train. The train that is already slower and less frequent and more grimy and smelly and devoid of convenience than the buses provided by.....GNE.

Really the bus is quicker than the train from Prudhoe to Newcastle or the Metrocentre are you sure about that? Tyne Valley 10 / 10B takes 48 minutes from Newcastle to Prudhoe and 29 from the Metrocentre (actually a couple of minutes more if going from the Railway station stop). The train takes 22 and 14 mins respectively. This is also using the slow Covid timetable where the 3 trains an hour are merged into 1 so the two express services an hour which actually cut another 3/4 mins off that aren't operating

 

[MackTen]

This is all getting a little deep. I am fairly new to the North East; and have started using Xlines X47 everyday for work. I can't speak for previous management and brands etc in detail however I appreciate the quality of vehicles on the route, whether it be a Streetdeck or MMC. This is certainly enforced when, on the odd occasion, a Red Kite B9 shows up with condensed windows and horrible interior.

Surely the game is won. I'm a customer, I like the service as do the others along the route when they realised they got new buses, I'm sure. That's that.

All I see is GNE trying to creat a solid, modern brand across multiple different corridors in which the commuters know what they are getting in terms of quality. In my opinion, a quality as good as your car interior (as it states on some of the branding). Ok the previous red kite branding may stand out more, but if I were car owner, I certainly wouldn't give up my comfort for a horrible interior and not being able to see out of the windows on cold mornings.

I know I would certainly rather an Xlines vehicle rather than a Stagecoach Gold or Arriva Sapphire bus, as from what I can tell are the same tat that those companies put out on the roads everyday just in a different (tacky) colourscheme.

You are exactly who this refresh was aimed at. People who, for whatever reason, didn't actually know that for some years now, GNE has been aiming for interiors that feel like your car. Some of the buses replaced by X-Lines vehicles, already had plush high backed leather seats, and air con, and they were on their second allocation, since their original route had already been upgraded again.

You have been conned. You have been made to assume that an upgrade wasn't coming to Red Kite without absorption into this mish mash of mixed messages. Truth time. X-Lines or no X-Lines, the next buses on the X47, would have had the features you are so impressed by now. The buses they replaced, the ones you're slamming, had WiFi five years ago! And they weren't even the launch buses of Red Kite, they were an upgrade too.

Some people just don't know how lucky they are.

Stagecoach and Arriva are frankly going to be over the moon that people will now apparently start to assume, through the use of this as some form of "premium" brand, that GNE has a pretty crappy fleet otherwise.

Buses with high backed padded leather seats and air-con, and gold paint to boot. Thirteen years ago. Where? Newcastle, Gateshead, Heworth, South Shields and Hetton le Hole. You heard it here first, apparently.

Really the bus is quicker than the train from Prudhoe to Newcastle or the Metrocentre are you sure about that? Tyne Valley 10 / 10B takes 48 minutes from Newcastle to Prudhoe and 29 from the Metrocentre (actually a couple of minutes more if going from the Railway station stop). The train takes 22 and 14 mins respectively. This is also using the slow Covid timetable where the 3 trains an hour are merged into 1 so the two express services an hour which actually cut another 3/4 mins off that aren't operating

Ha. I stand corrected then.

Is anyone able to summarise the last few pages of this thread into a couple of simple sentences, or maybe a few bullet points?
My head hurts trying to work out whatever points are trying to be put across in the numerous lenghy posts.
...any help will be greatly appreciated!!

A group of consultants have cooked up a half baked brand for Go North East's interurban services which is a retrograde step, given that it actually erased several long standing and well known route brands, for dubious benefits, in large part because they decided to ignore the specific history of Go North East. Which, contrary to most of their other clients I presume, has been, ever since the first intoduction of route branding, many many years ago, had been all about making continuous investment specifically to attract car drivers with a premium product and fast frequent links. If universal use of route branding was destined for the dustbin, presumably because it costs too much to do properly (can't see how, GNE was not in dire straits as far as I knew), or because it somehow doesn't highlight these specific services very well, there were likely other ways that the next branding strategy could have highlighted what the company is really all about these days.

 

[jammy36]

I really like the new X-Lines branding:

It looks smart and modern. It clearly and consistently promotes the services as premium high quality products - finally the quality of the brand matches the quality of the product. In comparison the old GNE brands looked cheap, dated and were badly in need of an update - they may have been distinctive, but they didn't speak of a quality product.

Consistency over common corridors such as between Newcastle and Consett works well.

Consistency across printed and online media makes the services easy to understand.

New interior specification is a significant step forward from what went before - the passenger environment is just so much more inviting. Comparing the interior on the Castles Express Streetdeck with the latest X-Lines examples is like chalk and cheese. They may have the same attributes (high backed seats, WiFi, etc) but the new vehicles just look a darned sight more inviting.

Anything that gets rid of the horrid use of graphics over windows - like on the old Castles Express livery is an instant winner. The old Castles Express scheme showed disdain for passengers wanting to look outside!!

Nothing to do with being conned, just a different (and valid) viewpoint.

 

[GusB]

It's good to see a bit of healthy debate in a thread, but it boils down to one opinion against another and it's difficult to get past that. I think we should all agree to disagree in this case and move on.

When I said move on it meant move on