Go to bed in Swansea, wake up in Paris

[Adlington]

This post, about the story of Wales’ planned and forgotten sleeper train to France, might be placed in the "Railway History and Nostalgia" forum. I'm sure moderators, in their wisdom, will decide on the best place...

The sun has just set behind Mumbles Pier as passengers with suitcases scan the departure board at Swansea station. Between the final services to Carmarthen, Pembroke Dock and Paddington, appears the 9.15 to Paris.

With passport checks carried out on board, passengers head straight to the platform where staff direct them to one of the seven turquoise and green carriages where they will spend the night.

Those on a budget try to get comfortable in reclining seats as they wait for the trolley service. In the other half of the train, some settle down in bed with a book or a copy of the Evening Post, others head to the lounge car for a night cap, and those who have paid most enjoy a warm shower.

After stops in Cardiff, Newport and Bristol, only a good night’s sleep and the city of light await.

At a time when underfunding has made some rail journeys within our borders difficult enough, such a scene playing out at a Welsh train station seems as fictitious as the sleeper train-inspired novels it brings to mind.

Yet it was to be a daily occurrence from May 1994 under plans for the ‘Nightstar’.

Source
Yet another sad "might have been" story.

 

[rheingold103]

This post, about the story of Wales’ planned and forgotten sleeper train to France, might be placed in the "Railway History and Nostalgia" forum. I'm sure moderators, in their wisdom, will decide on the best place...


Source
Yet another sad "might have been" story.

The remarshalling at Kensington Olympia to form up a class 92 hauled 14 coach train (attaching to half of the train from Glasgow) would have been quite something too - after the experience of 2x class 37 plus generator van haulage from Swansea. This then followed by attaching a class 92 on the rear from Dollands Moor to Fréthun (CT safety regulations) then a French loco from Fréthun to Paris. Quite an operation...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The remarshalling at Kensington Olympia to form up a class 92 hauled 14 coach train (attaching to half of the train from Glasgow) would have been quite something too - after the experience of 2x class 37 plus generator van haulage from Swansea. This then followed by attaching a class 92 on the rear from Dollands Moor to Fréthun (CT safety regulations) then a French loco from Fréthun to Paris. Quite an operation...

Presumably if Nightstar had got off the ground, the more recent electrification of the GWML would mean the 92 could take over at Cardiff... but for the awkward gap for the detour into Bristol of course.

 

[popeter45]

Presumably if Nightstar had got off the ground, the more recent electrification of the GWML would mean the 92 could take over at Cardiff... but for the awkward gap for the detour into Bristol of course.

prob would just have served parkway instead
thou i assume as they 92's for the tunnel would come from the north of london portions they would use somthing else like a 90 or 91

 

[rheingold103]

prob would just have served parkway instead
thou i assume as they 92's for the tunnel would come from the north of london portions they would use somthing else like a 90 or 91

Class 92 has (had) compatibility with Nightstock auxiliaries including electric train supply (ETS). Off Topic but similarities with Caledonian Sleeper stock.

Presumably if Nightstar had got off the ground, the more recent electrification of the GWML would mean the 92 could take over at Cardiff... but for the awkward gap for the detour into Bristol of course.

... and the GWML - Willesden section (for West Ĺondon Line (WLL)) in West London still not electrified.

Re-marshalling of the 4x 7 coach half sets still required at Kensington Olympia to make up 14s for each of Paris and Brussels.

 

[popeter45]

Re-marshalling of the 4x 7 coach half sets still required at Kensington Olympia to make up 14s for each of Paris and Brussels.

i would love to know the actual plans for that
would they overhang on platform 3 as it wouldnt be long enough for a full 400m set
where would they shunt from and to
etc

 

[61653 HTAFC]

prob would just have served parkway instead
thou i assume as they 92's for the tunnel would come from the north of london portions they would use somthing else like a 90 or 91

For some reason I'd momentarily forgotten that Parkway exists, so was assuming it'd have to serve Temple Meads. Obviously Parkway would make more sense.

Not sure why you'd use anything other than an additional 92, plenty of them were built and it would save on traction knowledge/training. As two locos are needed for the tunnel anyway, having multiple locos (one from each portion- GW, EC & WC) to manage the shunting would be an advantage- with two taking the combined set onwards to France. The third, having assisted with the shunt, then stables at Clapham Yard or Olympia to await the inbound service from the Continent.

.. and the GWML - Willesden section (for West Ĺondon Line (WLL)) in West London still not electrified.

Re-marshalling of the 4x 7 coach half sets still required at Kensington Olympia to make up 14s for each of Paris and Brussels.

It's probably fair to assume that if Nightstar had become established, sorting out the short connecting chords as an add-on to GWML electrification (assuming it still happened) would be relatively small beans. Certainly better than continuing to use 1960s diesels with diesel generators for the sake of a couple of miles of wiring in West London.

i would love to know the actual plans for that
would they overhang on platform 3 as it wouldnt be long enough for a full 400m set
where would they shunt from and to
etc

If it isn't an official stop, it wouldn't need to be platformed as long as it fits within the signalling sections. Presumably passengers wouldn't be permitted to board or alight at Olympia?

All very much pie in the sky of course!

 

[zwk500]

Slightly more detail here: https://www.kentrail.org.uk/nightstar.htm

The plans changed every now and again as to exact destination, but Swansea and Plymouth seem fairly firm. See also this thread:

Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

Just wondering why sleeper trains from St Pancras have never happened given how popular these seem in Europe?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[rheingold103]

I posted yesterday (well I thought I did) in response to a post that class 92 is not equipped with KVB, the train protection system of St Pancras (HS1). Well, no matter...

The Kentrail article refers to CT night services from Edinburgh as well as Glasgow. It was Regional Eurostar that was planned from Edinburgh via the ECML - indeed these were formally changed to be extended back from Glasgow Central with overnight servicing at Polmadie. Here, daytime servicing was also to take place on the Nightstock. A single 14coach train ie two subsets would then operate via the WCML, a portion for each of Paris and Brussels. Later on (I do not recall when) one subset was rerouted to operate from Manchester, to be serviced daytime at the then new Manchester International depot, built principally for overnight servicing of both Manchester's daily Regional Eurostar 2+14 sets.

It is clear how interwoven the plans were for Regional Eurostar and regional Nightstar.

 

[zwk500]

I posted yesterday (well I thought I did) in response to a post that class 92 is not equipped with KVB, the train protection system of St Pancras (HS1). Well, no matter...

I think you posted that on the thread initially started for the disruption the other day on HS1.

 

[popeter45]

these days if i were to design a sleeper service thru the tunnels i would do the following

1) route via classic lines so help avoid high speed line access fee's when not needed
2) start as small as possible without the harder parts e.g. start with a London to Paris/Amsterdam service so no need to address the boarder checks issue and as a single set that splits at lille-flanders in the tunnel yet again to reduce access fee's
2a) only if sucessful look at UK expansion and looking at how to solve the passport checks
3) design rolling stock such that if the service fails they can be used elsewhere either UK or EU side (think night rivera or european sleeper)
3a) if possible use a existing design again to reduce cost, e.g. Aventra, 80X, FLIRT, CAF mk5 etc

 

[Austriantrain]

these days if i were to design a sleeper service thru the tunnels i would do the following

1) route via classic lines so help avoid high speed line access fee's when not needed
2) start as small as possible without the harder parts e.g. start with a London to Paris/Amsterdam service so no need to address the boarder checks issue and as a single set that splits at lille-flanders in the tunnel yet again to reduce access fee's
2a) only if sucessful look at UK expansion and looking at how to solve the passport checks
3) design rolling stock such that if the service fails they can be used elsewhere either UK or EU side (think night rivera or european sleeper)
3a) if possible use a existing design again to reduce cost, e.g. Aventra, 80X, FLIRT, CAF mk5 etc

No one would start with a London - Paris/Amsterdam service. The daytime journey is so short, there would be no demand!

 

[rheingold103]

I think you posted that on the thread initially started for the disruption the other day on HS1.

Thank you, a moment of doubt!

The post about class 92 not having KVB would apply on this night services thread too were anyone to propose a loco operated service from St Pancras. But that should be under 'speculative' so I stop there...

 

[zwk500]

Thank you, a moment of doubt!

The post about class 92 not having KVB would apply on this night services thread too were anyone to propose a loco operated service from St Pancras. But that should be under 'speculative' so I stop there...

Yes - these services were planned to run classic line to Dollands Moor AIUI and AWS was installed to Calais Ville so that the loco change to a french machine could take place there.

 

[popeter45]

No one would start with a London - Paris/Amsterdam service. The daytime journey is so short, there would be no demand!

Once you factor in security on the early morning services It starts to look more attractive

For instance for the 6am London to Paris you should turn up at 4:30 to 5am for check-in, factor in many national trains don't start by then and your looking at a nearby hotel if you need to get to Paris by 9am, might as well get checked in 11pm for a midnight to 1am departure already asleep and avoid the 4am alarm to arrive 8am with time for breakfast

 

[zwk500]

Once you factor in security on the early morning services It starts to look more attractive

For instance for the 6am London to Paris you should turn up at 4:30 to 5am for check-in, factor in many national trains don't start by then and your looking at a nearby hotel if you need to get to Paris by 9am, might as well get checked in 11pm for a midnight to 1am departure already asleep and avoid the 4am alarm to arrive 8am with time for breakfast

Cannon Street/Victoria to Dover is around 2h depending on stops, plus 30 mins for the tunnel, the 2h53 for a TER on the classic lines Calais-Paris, so 5h30 travel time (conservatively). London to Paris obviously gains the hour so could have 23.30 ex-London for 0600 Paris, although the other direction would probably leave after midnight to avoid arriving horrendously early.

 

[popeter45]

Cannon Street/Victoria to Dover is around 2h depending on stops, plus 30 mins for the tunnel, the 2h53 for a TER on the classic lines Calais-Paris, so 5h30 travel time (conservatively). London to Paris obviously gains the hour so could have 23.30 ex-London for 0600 Paris, although the other direction would probably leave after midnight to avoid arriving horrendously early.

also factor in St pancras to Brixton and you can get 7:45, split/join time at Lille and that at night prob running at slower freight speeds adds enough for a proper night
https://signal.eu.org/osm/#locs=51.530443,-0.125248;50.636460,3.070915;48.880706,2.354347 (need to select No high speed lines)

 

[rheingold103]

Yes - these services were planned to run classic line to Dollands Moor AIUI and AWS was installed to Calais Ville so that the loco change to a french machine could take place there.

Yes, from Waterloo and, for the regional trains, Kensington Olympia to Dollands Moor via both Eurostar main cleared routes (CTR1, CTR2) and Bat & Ball (of amusement to French colleagues). CTR3 via Redhill, whilst cleared for class 92, was not cleared for CT Nightstock.

Reversal in Calais Ville would have been straightforward for a loco change except if the CT evacuation contingency class 92 would have been attached there to the rear. (Having said that, I'm trying to remember if the rear class 92 would have been attached in Fréthun Yard).

It all really would have been a massive operation with lengthy dwell times for loco changes and, for the regional trains, remarshalling the portions. (The half-set end vehicles had shunter's end window, horn, window wiper, and voice comms to the class 92 and 37/6 locos for the propelling moves involved).

 

[HSTEd]

It raises the question of how anyone expected an operation of such extreme complexity to ever be economically sensible?

The resources needed for this make the Caledonian Sleeper look positively simple.

 

[zwk500]

It raises the question of how anyone expected an operation of such extreme complexity to ever be economically sensible?

The resources needed for this make the Caledonian Sleeper look positively simple.

Before serious low-cost airlines, presumably the market for early morning arrivals into Germany was quite attractive to business travellers, and BR would presumably have been able to trade resources between sectors to operate it.

 

[ac6000cw]

Once you factor in security on the early morning services It starts to look more attractive

For instance for the 6am London to Paris you should turn up at 4:30 to 5am for check-in, factor in many national trains don't start by then and your looking at a nearby hotel if you need to get to Paris by 9am, might as well get checked in 11pm for a midnight to 1am departure already asleep and avoid the 4am alarm to arrive 8am with time for breakfast

You just organise it so you have the hotel night at the destination and travel on an evening train. Dinner on the train, decent night's sleep and breakfast in nice cafe...

As Austriantrain said, why do anything else when the day journey time is so short?

 

[popeter45]

You just organise it so you have the hotel night at the destination and travel on an evening train. Dinner on the train, decent night's sleep and breakfast in nice cafe...

As Austriantrain said, why do anything else when the day journey time is so short?

last Paris eurostar is 8pm so 6pm check-in, 7:30pm with 5:30 pm check-in for brussels, too early if you want to get anthing done in london before heading off and if traveling from further it means you cant get a full work day in

a midnight Nightstar from London would allow as far away as Edinburgh travelers finish work at 5, catch the train to London to arrive at 10pm and get on the sleeper

 

[Bald Rick]

a midnight Nightstar from London would allow as far away as Edinburgh travelers finish work at 5, catch the train to London to arrive at 10pm and get on the sleeper

Edinburgh travellers wanting to do that journey will find it rather easier, quicker and cheaper to finish work at 5, get to the airport for half past, catch the 1830 flight, and be in Paris in plenty of time for a Pastis or deux before retiring to their lit.

 

[Class83]

Channel Tunnel Sleepers, does seem something which could be useful, particularly in light of the reduced capacity at St. Pancras, with full border checks. Last train to Paris leaves at 8pm and Brussels is earlier, having 5 sleepers leaving at 10pm for Copenhagen, Vienna, Milan and Barcelona would open up journeys which are impractical by rail in one day, but would allow access to their destination and journeys beyond the next day. The difficulty would inevitably be on the return leg, while pre-cleared passengers could alight at the main station in their destination freely, boarding would have to take place at a secure area to allow checks, so probably secondary stations on the edge of town where a spare platform could take place. There is the provision to do some passport checks at St. Pancras arrivals, so operating on the basis that passengers should be know, for early morning arrivals could that be used as a double check against known passengers, if people didn't match the list I'm not aware there is much space to hold them while investigating.

The same problem in reverse would apply to sleepers from Scotland/Wales/Northern England to Paris/Brussels. The checks are fine at the main station, but harder at the once a day sleeper destination.

 

[30907]

Channel Tunnel Sleepers, does seem something which could be useful, particularly in light of the reduced capacity at St. Pancras, with full border checks. Last train to Paris leaves at 8pm and Brussels is earlier, having 5 sleepers leaving at 10pm for Copenhagen, Vienna, Milan and Barcelona would open up journeys which are impractical by rail in one day, but would allow access to their destination and journeys beyond the next day.

With the length of journey you are talking about - eg 15 hours or so for Copenhagen - you could consider the DB&B model: an early evening departure from London and a mid-morning arrival at destination.

But you could do that by starting from Brussels at 2300 connecting out of the last Eurostar, meaning you could also serve Paris-Copenhagen. Which ISTR is what Sweden wants but hasn't got very far.

 

[popeter45]

Channel Tunnel Sleepers, does seem something which could be useful, particularly in light of the reduced capacity at St. Pancras, with full border checks. Last train to Paris leaves at 8pm and Brussels is earlier, having 5 sleepers leaving at 10pm for Copenhagen, Vienna, Milan and Barcelona would open up journeys which are impractical by rail in one day, but would allow access to their destination and journeys beyond the next day. The difficulty would inevitably be on the return leg, while pre-cleared passengers could alight at the main station in their destination freely, boarding would have to take place at a secure area to allow checks, so probably secondary stations on the edge of town where a spare platform could take place. There is the provision to do some passport checks at St. Pancras arrivals, so operating on the basis that passengers should be know, for early morning arrivals could that be used as a double check against known passengers, if people didn't match the list I'm not aware there is much space to hold them while investigating.

The same problem in reverse would apply to sleepers from Scotland/Wales/Northern England to Paris/Brussels. The checks are fine at the main station, but harder at the once a day sleeper destination.

from arriveing back last week im pretty sure the arrivals checking area is gone and seems to be in the process of being converted to more departures

Copenhagen, Vienna, Milan and Barcelona are way too far away to bring enough passengers, focus on nearer locations like Amsterdam, Paris and maybe Cologne/Frankfurt/Lyon, first 2 already have checking facilities so easy with amsterdam on slow lines you could get 7 hours out of it but latter 3 could potentally work with somthing like a customs carriage on the train that gets removed before the tunnel? and even then not sure how viable that would be in practiace

 

[Snow1964]

Remains to be seen if the environmental idea of not flying revives this. Sleeper trains are being revived in Europe.

As recently as today, Trenitalia ordered 70 new sleeping cars as part of framework agreement for upto 370. They are expected to operate between Milan and Palermo and Syracuse

 

[paul1609]

People are suggesting that HS2 will kill the London to Glasgow sleeper market but also that a journey that is the same distance as London to Lancaster (Paris) is somehow viable for a sleeper. Doesn't seem to make sense to me

 

[Bald Rick]

As recently as today, Trenitalia ordered 70 new sleeping cars as part of framework agreement for upto 370. They are expected to operate between Milan and Palermo and Syracuse

By complate chance I was looking at the Milan - Sicily overnight trains earlier today. 22 hours!!

Channel Tunnel Sleepers, does seem something which could be useful, particularly in light of the reduced capacity at St. Pancras, with full border checks. Last train to Paris leaves at 8pm and Brussels is earlier, having 5 sleepers leaving at 10pm for Copenhagen, Vienna, Milan and Barcelona would open up journeys which are impractical by rail in one day,

I posted many years ago on these pages the likely cost of a sleeper to Barcelona for an OA company to make a profit. IIRC it was £500 one way, and it won’t have got any cheaper.

 

[popeter45]

By complate chance I was looking at the Milan - Sicily overnight trains earlier today. 22 hours!!

to be fair thats more of a combined intecity and sleeper, not really a option with the channel tunnel without something like swapping E320's with 8 car units so you could add a sleeper 8 car EMU to the last London-brussels Trains then run that onwards