Google Maps train data

[PG87]

Does anyone know where Google Maps pulls the data it uses for train times from?

I’ve noticed on a few recent occasions that it has been completely wrong. Sometimes trains show up on Google that don’t exist, and this morning it claimed that a Thameslink train from Herne Hill was running 8 mins late, when in fact it was on time.

The - wrong - information tends to be different from the platform indicators, suggesting a different source?

This feels like quite an important thing to get right. My entirely unscientific guess is that many more people rely on a maps app for train times than any industry provided timetable or app.

 

[kacper]

Can add Apple Maps to this, it’s usually ok but for some stations none of the data is correct

 

[Wivenswold]

I don't have the answer but it's often the case that some apps are just rubbish.
One of my other hobbies is meteorology and I'm constantly answering questions from friends and family about the weather their app shows for a specific time and place in 3 weeks time which is well outside a reliable forecasting timeframe.

While we love having all the info at our finger tips, just as with products in most retail sectors, the quality and reliability varies greatly.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I don't have the answer but it's often the case that some apps are just rubbish.
One of my other hobbies is meteorology and I'm constantly answering questions from friends and family about the weather their app shows for a specific time and place in 3 weeks time which is well outside a reliable forecasting timeframe.

While we love having all the info at our finger tips, just as with products in most retail sectors, the quality and reliability varies greatly.

I suspect that both Apple and Google Maps are using an industry source for the data - hardly rubbish.

 

[PG87]

Completely agree about weather apps, but that is obviously subjective, variable data where uncertainties are hard to display via a single icon.

Train times are the opposite: binary right or wrong and very easy to display in an app. It feels amazing that wrong information can be fed to so many users.

(I’m obviously frustrated because there is a 30 min gap on a Sunday to the next train, which is imho insane for a zone 2, busy station. But that’s another issue).

 

[GWVillager]

I do find Google Maps overall to be rather terrible for public transport - it’s clearly an afterthought. Apple Maps is much better, though still not ideal.

I’ve noticed on a few recent occasions that it has been completely wrong. Sometimes trains show up on Google that don’t exist, and this morning it claimed that a Thameslink train from Herne Hill was running 8 mins late, when in fact it was on time.

Is it possible that the train gained time and Google just hadn’t updated yet?

 

[L401CJF]

I've found it to be just as inaccurate for buses. Showing as late when it's on time, showing as cancelled when it's not, completely different to what's shown on a companies own app etc.

Would be interesting to know where the data is from.

 

[class397tpe]

I've found it to be just as inaccurate for buses. Showing as late when it's on time, showing as cancelled when it's not, completely different to what's shown on a companies own app etc.

Would be interesting to know where the data is from.

Yeah I completely agree, Google maps is useless for buses. It does beg the question of where it gets the data from, because it claims to be showing live times? I know city mapper uses TFL as the source and that's accurate.

 

[bspahh]

I've found it to be just as inaccurate for buses. Showing as late when it's on time, showing as cancelled when it's not, completely different to what's shown on a companies own app etc.

Would be interesting to know where the data is from.

https://support.google.com/transitp...206086016097-516691181&ref_topic=3521043&rd=1 says:

How it works​

When participating transit agencies share their static transit data (e.g. routes, stops, and schedules) with Google Transit, that information is integrated with Google Maps and accessible to Google users.

Once you share your static route and schedule information with Google Transit, you can add live transit updates via Realtime Transit. Realtime updates enhance your passengers’ experience with the latest departure and arrival times, service alerts, and vehicle positions. As long as your static transit information is available through Google Maps, you’re eligible to submit data for Realtime Transit.

Google has set up the infrastructure to transmit the data, but its going to rely on the data that is supplied by the organization that is running the service. That means it will be patchy. Some services might get automatic updates when the planned schedule changes, or with live updates. Others might rely on someone manually entering updates.

There is more on Google's requirements at

Get started with Google Transit - Transit Partners Help

Transit is a public transportation planning tool that combines the latest agency data with the power of Google Maps. It combines transit stop, route, schedule, and fare information to make planni

support.google.com

 

[borage]

Unless they’ve changed recently, Google and Apple Maps both rely on Ito World (https://www.itoworld.com/ito-transit-data/) to get GB public transport data from various sources, combine it and convert it into the format they expect. They say their processes “enhance” the quality of the data etc, but they would say that wouldn’t they? It’s possible that the extra intermediary makes updates slower and introduces more errors

 

[weastebusdepot]

I've found it to be just as inaccurate for buses. Showing as late when it's on time, showing as cancelled when it's not, completely different to what's shown on a companies own app etc.

Would be interesting to know where the data is from.

We discovered an anomaly at Manchester Airport where people looking to travel to certain hotels are advised by Google maps to catch the Z1 bus. That is actually the employee only service for Amazon warehouse staff!

 

[markymark2000]

Yeah I completely agree, Google maps is useless for buses. It does beg the question of where it gets the data from, because it claims to be showing live times? I know city mapper uses TFL as the source and that's accurate.

If the timetable data is correct in the first place, Ive found the live tracking to not be too bad. If it says on time, it normally is or if it says scheduled, I know it has no live tracking.

https://support.google.com/transitp...206086016097-516691181&ref_topic=3521043&rd=1 says:


Google has set up the infrastructure to transmit the data, but its going to rely on the data that is supplied by the organization that is running the service. That means it will be patchy. Some services might get automatic updates when the planned schedule changes, or with live updates. Others might rely on someone manually entering updates.

There is more on Google's requirements at

Get started with Google Transit - Transit Partners Help

Transit is a public transportation planning tool that combines the latest agency data with the power of Google Maps. It combines transit stop, route, schedule, and fare information to make planni

support.google.com

One thing that really annoys me with Google is I reported incorrect data to them and they said nothing to do with them, contact the 'agency' (obviously abroad support) so I asked which sources they use for each operator so that I can report the issues properly (knowing full well that 90% of operators don't have a clue how their data gets into Traveline, let alone google maps, its just magic) and they refused to give me any details, just kept saying contact the operator. I have enough issues reporting bus open data errors as people think I am talking in riddles. I've no hope with getting them to sort Google Maps data

We discovered an anomaly at Manchester Airport where people looking to travel to certain hotels are advised by Google maps to catch the Z1 bus. That is actually the employee only service for Amazon warehouse staff!

I presume that is because First put it on bus open data at one point and had it down that the service could be used by the public.

 

[Dai Corner]

Does anyone know where Google Maps pulls the data it uses for train times from?

I’ve noticed on a few recent occasions that it has been completely wrong. Sometimes trains show up on Google that don’t exist, and this morning it claimed that a Thameslink train from Herne Hill was running 8 mins late, when in fact it was on time.

The - wrong - information tends to be different from the platform indicators, suggesting a different source?

This feels like quite an important thing to get right. My entirely unscientific guess is that many more people rely on a maps app for train times than any industry provided timetable or app.

Was that the 0806 Bromley South to Blackfriars which started 4 late at Beckenham Junction and was 8 late at Herne Hill according to RTT?

Realtime Trains | 2D09 0810½ Beckenham Junction to London Blackfriars | 06/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 2D09 0810½ departure from Beckenham Junction to London Blackfriars on 06/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[IndianPacific]

We discovered an anomaly at Manchester Airport where people looking to travel to certain hotels are advised by Google maps to catch the Z1 bus. That is actually the employee only service for Amazon warehouse staff!

If you are a regular service bus you can operate under the domestic rules for driver hours etc (no tachometer needed). Im not 100% sure but reckon a private staff bus would probably fall under the EU rules (tachometer & more record keeping needed).

So it’s probably being run as a public bus (with some sort of deal in place for free fares with amazon ID or whatever…), but just not really being advertised as one as that’d be easiest for the operators that’d be tendering for that sort of stuff.

 

[markymark2000]

If you are a regular service bus you can operate under the domestic rules for driver hours etc (no tachometer needed). Im not 100% sure but reckon a private staff bus would probably fall under the EU rules (tachometer & more record keeping needed).

No, domestic rules as its less than 50km and has stops less than 15 miles apart. Driver must have a duty board though.

So it’s probably being run as a public bus (with some sort of deal in place for free fares with amazon ID or whatever…), but just not really being advertised as one as that’d be easiest for the operators that’d be tendering for that sort of stuff.

All Amazon buses through First Travel Solutions are closed door. I don't think Amazon IDs are checked normally but officially they can be checked and none Amazon employees refused from the service.

 

[Scott1]

Unless they’ve changed recently, Google and Apple Maps both rely on Ito World (https://www.itoworld.com/ito-transit-data/) to get GB public transport data from various sources, combine it and convert it into the format they expect. They say their processes “enhance” the quality of the data etc, but they would say that wouldn’t they? It’s possible that the extra intermediary makes updates slower and introduces more errors

It wouldn't surprise me if there "data enhancement" causes issues. There are often problems with the Trainline app not updating for platform alterations or showing unit swaps as cancelled trains. This issue doesn't effect the National Rail Enq app. When it's been queried we've been told the problem is Trainline putting it through its idea of data enhancement, which delays the app updating until it is too late or causes the data to be wrong.

 

[islandmonkey]

Google Maps gets the Romsey runner wrong often, and marks the service that starts at Salisbury as 43 minutes late. It's not 43 minutes late, I don't think I've ever seen a 2Rxx or 2Sxx run 43 minutes late. Instead, it gets confused as the service calls at Romsey twice, it calls at Romsey and then terminates there 43 minutes later. Google Maps thinks that's the service running 43 minutes late.

 

[WelshBluebird]

We discovered an anomaly at Manchester Airport where people looking to travel to certain hotels are advised by Google maps to catch the Z1 bus. That is actually the employee only service for Amazon warehouse staff!

Somewhat similar issue in Bristol with the A1 airport bus and Google suggesting it be used for short hops between Temple Meads and the bus station or Temple Meads and Bedminster, totally ignoring the fact that the A1 is an airport express service and no local fares are available within Bristol itself for it. So technically they are right in that you can use it, you also have to pay the full airport fare to do so, something that no sane person will do. It actually causes issues as the A1 is the most logical choice for many journeys if it wasn't the the fare issue, so that being suggested means it can be hard to actually find journeys that are realistically possible instead!

 

[markymark2000]

Somewhat similar issue in Bristol with the A1 airport bus and Google suggesting it be used for short hops between Temple Meads and the bus station or Temple Meads and Bedminster, totally ignoring the fact that the A1 is an airport express service and no local fares are available within Bristol itself for it. So technically they are right in that you can use it, you also have to pay the full airport fare to do so, something that no sane person will do. It actually causes issues as the A1 is the most logical choice for many journeys if it wasn't the the fare issue, so that being suggested means it can be hard to actually find journeys that are realistically possible instead!

First promote the A1 on open data as pick up and drop off at all stops en route so that is why it will be recommending it. The purpose of the route (airport/works/school bus) is not noted on any transport data anywhere. It's down to the individual journey planner to work that out if they so wish. Fare data is becoming a thing and so if Google wishes, they could use Bus Open Data fares data to tell passengers know much the journeys will cost and then offer passengers a better choice of journey (A1 but costs £12 or U2 and costs £2).


I tend to use Google Maps as a guide for journey planning and I then check bustimes to check if it's correct as I know Google Maps can be months out of date sometimes.

 

[Dai Corner]

The only registered Z1 bus service in the UK appears to be to/from Amazon's Tilbury, Essex warehouse. Not of much use to a weary traveller at Manchester Airport wanting to get to his hotel!

 

[markymark2000]

The only registered Z1 bus service in the UK appears to be to/from Amazon's Tilbury, Essex warehouse. Not of much use to a weary traveller at Manchester wanting to get to his hotel!

The Amazon Manchester bus isn't registered as it doesn't have to be.

 

[Dai Corner]

The Amazon Manchester bus isn't registered as it doesn't have to be.

Which makes it strange that Google Maps suggests it, or even knows about it.

 

[markymark2000]

Which makes it strange that Google Maps suggests it, or even knows about it.

First put it on their bus open data so any site using bus open data to populate the journey planner, it showed up.

 

[TUC]

I've found Google Maps pretty good in being up to date in terms of timetables for planning journeys, even if it sometimes comes up with some esoteric routes that are nominally the shortest journey. However I wouldn't use it for live updates. There's little point when there are other websites which do that so well.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I know in Yorkshire the bus and tram data in Google Transit comes via ACIS, which West Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority manages. They do timetable uploads once a month. This is the same data that feeds live displays at bus stops in the area.

 

[markymark2000]

I know in Yorkshire the bus and tram data in Google Transit comes via ACIS, which West Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority manages. They do timetable uploads once a month. This is the same data that feeds live displays at bus stops in the area.

Once per month isn't great. That means the data could be a month behind. Should really be updated every time there is an update.

 

[Wivenswold]

I suspect that both Apple and Google Maps are using an industry source for the data - hardly rubbish.

An app is objectively "rubbish" if it not fit for purpose. Regardless of the quality of the source of data, some apps are coded badly as appears to be the case here.

 

[infobleep]

Google only suggests the next couple of journeys with no option to show later or earlier, which I find frustrating. This is on Android.

The usefulness of Google though is that it can show the route on a map and also combine multiple transport forms with walking.

However, I was caught out recently when it said the number 4 bus in Guildford was only every 30 minutes. So I walked instead. The bus would have been faster but not if it really has been every 30 minutes.

To cap it off, Safeguard isn't part of the £2 fare scheme as a return is only £2.40. However, as a single is £2.30 so I only saved myself 10p.

I did inform the bus driver of this issue and said they might like to tell someone so it could be looked into.

In this case, I don't know what the cause of the issue is.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I don't find Google Maps *useless* for public transport - quite the opposite - but I would generally verify information from it from a second source (Bustimes, NRE, operator websites. Traveline) if I were looking up info in an area with which I am unfamilar. It is certainly flawed

PROS:
It sometimes knows trains have been cancelled (even at short notice) and thus won't suggest them

CONS:
Occasionally bus routes or entire operator networks are temporarily missing from the database

On train travel that involves crossing London it takes no account of National Rail's minimum interchange times between terminals that allow permissible connections on a through ticket - so comes up with wonderfully short (indeed, potentially realistic, but also potentially risky) journey times in such cases. Would be too high a chance of ending up stranded in London late at night relying on some of those suggested times

 

[WelshBluebird]

On train travel that involves crossing London it takes no account of National Rail's minimum interchange times between terminals that allow permissible connections on a through ticket - so comes up with wonderfully short (indeed, potentially realistic, but also potentially risky) journey times in such cases.

Not just for London - it doesn't take into account connection times full stop as far as I can tell, so at larger stations you'll risk having a long wait if you just rely on Google. Even things like bus -> train connections it is hopelessly overconfident in short connections for!