Gospel Oak to Barking Line (GOBLIN) electrification

[DynamicSpirit]

The problem with that argument is that the seat layout is needed initially on both the peaks and the shoulders of the peaks.
This is not the case on all lines, and I disagree with the all longitudinal seating for the Liverpool Street services, but for the specific useage patterns of the Golbin where you need large capacity and short dwell times for passengers making short distance intra-urban journeys this is the right layout. Nobody would quibble if it were a London Underground line, and yet the line serves a similar function.

What about the arrangement I seem to recall you see on some of the Met line trains where there is some transverse seating, but placed so that there's transverse seating on one side of the carriage only, with longitudinal seating on the other side, so there's still plenty of room for people to move? I can't see that kind of arrangement would have any significant impact either on boarding or on train capacity, and it would at least give a choice for those people who do prefer transverse seating.

I imagine part of the reason people wouldn't quibble so much on underground lines is because they mainly run in tunnels, so not being able to look out of the windows doesn't make much of an impact. (Plus to tube trains are obviously smaller, so transverse seating is obviously less practical)

 

[Clip]

I'm thinking more in terms of a reputation thing. For a lot of people you've got a once in 10 years, or even once in a lifetime opportunity to convince them that trains are a comfortable reasonable mode of transport. If they end up with the impression that the seats are rock hard, or longitudinal, or place them square in their neighbour's lap, then they aren't going to get into the habit and will never know about the refit. .

I don't believe this to be true - just look at the ELL from West Croydon onwards - in the peak its nearly full once it leaves Norwood junction on some services - if a train gets people to where they need to be in a time that is suitable for them then the train will win every time.

What about the arrangement I seem to recall you see on some of the Met line trains where there is some transverse seating, but placed so that there's transverse seating on one side of the carriage only, with longitudinal seating on the other side, so there's still plenty of room for people to move? I can't see that kind of arrangement would have any significant impact either on boarding or on train capacity, and it would at least give a choice for those people who do prefer transverse seating.

You cant compare the two I think because people do travel long distances on the met - nearly an hour end to end - and the goblin is what? 30 mins roughly?​

 

[Mikey C]

What about the arrangement I seem to recall you see on some of the Met line trains where there is some transverse seating, but placed so that there's transverse seating on one side of the carriage only, with longitudinal seating on the other side, so there's still plenty of room for people to move? I can't see that kind of arrangement would have any significant impact either on boarding or on train capacity, and it would at least give a choice for those people who do prefer transverse seating.

I imagine part of the reason people wouldn't quibble so much on underground lines is because they mainly run in tunnels, so not being able to look out of the windows doesn't make much of an impact. (Plus to tube trains are obviously smaller, so transverse seating is obviously less practical)

The S stock have much bigger windows than the 378s as well, so it's far easier to see out, even when sitting sideways!

 

[Chris M]

What about the arrangement I seem to recall you see on some of the Met line trains where there is some transverse seating, but placed so that there's transverse seating on one side of the carriage only, with longitudinal seating on the other side, so there's still plenty of room for people to move? I can't see that kind of arrangement would have any significant impact either on boarding or on train capacity, and it would at least give a choice for those people who do prefer transverse seating.

I imagine part of the reason people wouldn't quibble so much on underground lines is because they mainly run in tunnels, so not being able to look out of the windows doesn't make much of an impact. (Plus to tube trains are obviously smaller, so transverse seating is obviously less practical)

You cant compare the two I think because people do travel long distances on the met - nearly an hour end to end - and the goblin is what? 30 mins roughly?

Indeed, the Met is primarily a commuter-style railway north of Baker Street and almost completely so north of Harrow, with people making very long journeys on them through outer suburbia and semi-rural areas. Almost everyone who boarded at Harrow (and almost all who boarded before) will still be on the train at Wembley Park, most at Finchley Road, and a sizeable proportion at Baker Street. On this sort of line the number of seats rather than the total number of passengers is what matters most. The hybrid layout is there so they aren't completely unsuitable for the Baker Street to Aldgate stretch which is pure metro.
The Goblin is a completely different animal, on the majority of trains the only person who boarded at Barking who will still be on board at Gospel Oak (only about 35 minutes later) is the driver. The hybrid layout is, as the name implies, less efficient at allowing people movement than a fully longitudinal layout is. The Goblin is a metro service transporting people short distances, what is needed is an internal layout that allows as many people on board as possible with the shortest dwell times possible as this is what very nearly all actual passengers want (as distinguished from enthusiasts who take a single trip one-way every few years at most), and this isn't confined to the peaks either.
There are mistakes being made with internal layouts on some modern trains, but the Goblin is not an example of this.

 

[po8crg]

FWIW I personally would rather longitudinal than a tightly packed 3+2 or even 2+2 airline layout, as there is much more legroom that way.

Agreed, but then I'm 6'5" (198cm) and need more legroom than most.

 

[snowball]

Press release:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...e-railway-at-crouch-hill-to-begin-this-month/

Work to increase the height of a bridge over the Gospel Oak to Barking railway line in north London will take place this month to create extra space for the overhead lines underneath.

The A1201 Crouch Hill Bridge will close from Monday 19 February to Monday 30 April while work takes place to lift the bridge, increase the height of the bridge walls and resurface the road. This will give extra clearance on the railway line underneath so that engineers can carry out maintenance in order to keep services running reliably.

The road bridge will close to all traffic between Trinder Road and Japan Crescent from Monday 19 February to Monday 30 April. The road bridge will re-open to traffic from Tuesday 01 May 2018, with temporary traffic lights.

A diversion route for motorists has been agreed with Haringey and Islington Councils. From Monday 19 February, signed diversions will be in place directing northbound traffic by Stapleton Hall Road and Ferme Park Road. Signed diversions will be in place directing southbound traffic by Crouch End Hill and Hanley Road. Bus services will also be affected by the diversions.

Access from the north and south to the properties located on Crouch Hill will be maintained throughout. The pavement near Crouch Hill main station entrance stays open for pedestrians. Pedestrian and cycle access is available to cross the bridge, however cyclists will need to dismount and wheel cycles across. The ramp for people with reduced mobility, motorised scooters, wheelchairs users and prams/pushchairs remains in place.

Meliha Duymaz, Network Rail’s route managing director, said: “This work is crucial in order to run a safe and reliable service on this newly electrified line and we have worked with local councils in order to create suitable alternative routes for motorists. I would like to thank everyone concerned for their patience while this essential work takes place.”

London Overground’s Gospel Oak to Barking line reopened on Monday 15 January following the installation of new overhead electric lines by Network Rail, which will enable new longer electric trains to run from spring 2018. The whole line will close between Saturday 7 and Sunday 8 April only during the work.

For more information go to www.networkrail.co.uk/gospel-oak-barking-electrification

 

[YorkshireLass]

Press release:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...e-railway-at-crouch-hill-to-begin-this-month/

I’ll

Press release:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...e-railway-at-crouch-hill-to-begin-this-month/

I was going to ask about this having stayed in the area recently. Was an issue with OHLE clearance only discovered once wiring had taken place? I would have assumed that bridge alterations would be planned for and delivered before the wires go up. What happened on this occasion and is it a common thing with electrification?

Thanks!

 

[goblinuser]

I’ll


I was going to ask about this having stayed in the area recently. Was an issue with OHLE clearance only discovered once wiring had taken place? I would have assumed that bridge alterations would be planned for and delivered before the wires go up. What happened on this occasion and is it a common thing with electrification?

Thanks!

The OHLE will work safely with the current amount of clearance, and is switched on and being used by test trains at present. However, EU rail standards for electrification specify a greater minimum clearance for newly installed wires than the old British standard.
I believe they lowered the track but it could not be lowered enough in order to comply. So they have to raise the bridge to comply with it.
In terms of who messed something up, I'm not sure.

 

[YorkshireLass]

The OHLE will work safely with the current amount of clearance, and is switched on and being used by test trains at present. However, EU rail standards for electrification specify a greater minimum clearance for newly installed wires than the old British standard.
I believe they lowered the track but it could not be lowered enough in order to comply. So they have to raise the bridge to comply with it.
In terms of who messed something up, I'm not sure.

Ah right, that makes sense - thank you.

 

[goblinuser]

Ah right, that makes sense - thank you.

The BGORUG has more information about the work needed in their latest newsletter http://www.barking-gospeloak.org.uk/documents/20180118_newsletter.pdf

 

[D365]

The OHLE will work safely with the current amount of clearance, and is switched on and being used by test trains at present. However, EU rail standards for electrification specify a greater minimum clearance for newly installed wires than the old British standard.

Although it's important to note that the EC were more than happy to make an exception to the relevant TSI in the case of this British standard.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Does anyone have any updates on this project, particularly the likelihood of the 172s being released at original planned time? Happy Easter everyone!

 

[59CosG95]

Does anyone have any updates on this project, particularly the likelihood of the 172s being released at original planned time? Happy Easter everyone!

AIUI, the release of 172s depends largely on the delivery of sufficient 710s, and thence training sufficient numbers of drivers on them. Granted that only 8 172/0s are used, not many 710s are required, but the driver training issue remains a grey area.
Happy Easter/Joyeux Pâques/Frohe Ostern etc.!

 

[87015]

AIUI, the release of 172s depends largely on the delivery of sufficient 710s, and thence training sufficient numbers of drivers on them. Granted that only 8 172/0s are used, not many 710s are required, but the driver training issue remains a grey area.
Happy Easter/Joyeux Pâques/Frohe Ostern etc.!

The lease of 172s has a hard end date on it, that won't change unless WMT want it to, which seems unlikely given the politics involved. Wiring hasn't been commissioned yet...

 

[Class 170101]

The wiring at South Tottenham chords to West Anglia hadn't been commissioned last I heard but I think the rest of the line is live.

 

[Bald Rick]

The wiring at South Tottenham chords to West Anglia hadn't been commissioned last I heard but I think the rest of the line is live.

Am I missing something? Those lines have been electrified since 1969.

 

[Class 170101]

Am I missing something? Those lines have been electrified since 1969.

Correct but...

The links were re-wired as part of the project however I don't think they are live (again) yet unless anyone knows any different.

 

[Taunton]

Am I missing something? Those lines have been electrified since 1969.

You are indeed correct, but in the "big" closure (the one where nothing got finished) the wires were actually dismantled, resulting in the novel outcome on the project at that point that they ended up with less electrified than they started with.

 

[jyte]

You are indeed correct, but in the "big" closure (the one where nothing got finished) the wires were actually dismantled, resulting in the novel outcome on the project at that point that they ended up with less electrified than they started with.

hmm...how uniquely British!

 

[swt_passenger]

hmm...how uniquely British!

Is it that surprising? The relatively short length of existing wiring would not necessarily be positioned correctly at the points and crossovers etc.

 

[jyte]

Yeah I know it just amused me.

 

[Railperf]

GOSPEL OAK TO BARKING FROM 0001 HOURS ON SATURDAY 24 MARCH 2018
The overhead line electrification equipment provided between Gospel Oak and Barking will be available for full service use.
NR 16.03.18

******EDIT*****
Apparently this notice has now been retracted by Network Rail on 5.04.18
What is going on??????

 

[plcd1]

GOSPEL OAK TO BARKING FROM 0001 HOURS ON SATURDAY 24 MARCH 2018
The overhead line electrification equipment provided between Gospel Oak and Barking will be available for full service use.
NR 16.03.18

******EDIT*****
Apparently this notice has now been retracted by Network Rail on 5.04.18
What is going on??????

Wild guess - the bridge at Crouch Hill is being raised this weekend. I assume NR will need to measure the revised clearances and seek approval to remove whatever waiver was put in place up to now. This will probably mean they need to seek re-approval of line's electrification installation as being fully compliant. If the links at S Tottenham haven't been restored but are being done this weekend then that's another aspect of compliance that needs evidencing and "sign off". As I say all of that is a guess on my part.

 

[DelW]

Wild guess - the bridge at Crouch Hill is being raised this weekend. I assume NR will need to measure the revised clearances and seek approval to remove whatever waiver was put in place up to now. This will probably mean they need to seek re-approval of line's electrification installation as being fully compliant. If the links at S Tottenham haven't been restored but are being done this weekend then that's another aspect of compliance that needs evidencing and "sign off". As I say all of that is a guess on my part.

I'm not sure which bit of your post was the guess, but I was told by a local contact that Crouch Hill bridge raising was indeed planned for this weekend. I haven't yet heard what progress is though.

 

[marko2]

I'm not sure which bit of your post was the guess, but I was told by a local contact that Crouch Hill bridge raising was indeed planned for this weekend. I haven't yet heard what progress is though.

When I went over it about 7pm today, the deck had clearly been raised about about 20cm - could tell from the discontinuity in the coping stones on the parapet wall.

 

[swt_passenger]

When I went over it about 7pm today, the deck had clearly been raised about about 20cm - could tell from the discontinuity in the coping stones on the parapet wall.

Have they just jacked up the whole existing deck then? Presumably still adjustments to be made to local road surfaces to match. Of course ‘just jacked up’ still has a massive impact on buried utilities, that will all have been affected...

 

[marko2]

Have they just jacked up the whole existing deck then? Presumably still adjustments to be made to local road surfaces to match. Of course ‘just jacked up’ still has a massive impact on buried utilities, that will all have been affected...

Yes. Utility reinstatements first, I guess, followed by filling in the large holes either side which currently go down - I suspect - to the bearing surface of the parapet walls. The road closure is scheduled to finish on the 30th April, so this must be happening quite quickly.

 

[jellybaby]

There are some pictures of the jacks at https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGOBE/status/983337722990485504

 

[superkev]

I confess I've lost track of this. How far are they off the big switch on
Thanks
K

 

[59CosG95]

I confess I've lost track of this. How far are they off the big switch on
Thanks
K

IIRC, the big switch-on has already occurred - it's the Class 710s that are the cause of delays to electrified GOBLIN services.
The "Class 710 LO" thread has documented all the farcical faults, but LO's main problem is that there aren't enough dual-voltage EMUs going around that have been route-cleared for the GOBLIN and its environs to be used as a stopgap.