Got a Penalty Fare – Need Advice on How to Appeal

[Chen]

Hi all,

Looking for some advice here – thanks in advance!

A few days ago I got given a penalty fare on a train and I’m still feeling a bit frustrated. It was a last-minute trip and I bought a ticket through the Trip.com app literally 2 minutes before departure. The payment went through straight away (I saw the money leave my account), so I jumped on the train thinking all was fine.

But just after I sat down, the ticket inspector came over, and that’s when I saw an email saying the ticket failed to issue. I honestly didn’t expect that at all. I tried to explain the situation, but the inspector didn’t give me a chance to sort it or repurchase — just handed me a penalty fare notice for £57.

I know they were following the rules, and fair enough, but I still feel it wasn’t really fair given the circumstances. I appealed and included both the bank payment record and the failed ticket email, but the appeal got rejected.

I want to appeal again — is there anything else I can say or include? I get that rules are rules, but sometimes genuine mistakes happen, and I feel like there should be a bit of room for understanding. We put up with delays, cancellations and strikes — is it too much to ask for a bit of flexibility when we’re genuinely trying to do the right thing?

Would really appreciate any advice or if anyone’s had a similar experience. Thanks!

 

[AlterEgo]

You didn’t have a ticket and these are valid grounds to issue a Penalty Fare. “It’s harsh” isn’t a valid appeal reason. However, if you upload the notice, with your details redacted, we can examine it the notice was filled in improperly, which may render it invalid.

 

[ikcdab]

You can appeal again, but you will almost certainly get the same outcome. The third appeal is reviewed by an independent group which can have a different outcome.
However you boarded a train without a valid ticket and that is an offence. It would have been sensible to check your ticket on the app before boarding. I am struggling to see what grounds you might have. If they money went out of your account and never came back then this might carry some weight at the third appeal, but I'm not sure how you show that you didn't buy the ticket and give it to someone else.
You probably just need to pay up and learn the lesson not to be in so much of a hurry next time.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

Looking for some advice here – thanks in advance!

A few days ago I got given a penalty fare on a train and I’m still feeling a bit frustrated. It was a last-minute trip and I bought a ticket through the Trip.com app literally 2 minutes before departure. The payment went through straight away (I saw the money leave my account), so I jumped on the train thinking all was fine.

But just after I sat down, the ticket inspector came over, and that’s when I saw an email saying the ticket failed to issue. I honestly didn’t expect that at all. I tried to explain the situation, but the inspector didn’t give me a chance to sort it or repurchase — just handed me a penalty fare notice for £57.

I know they were following the rules, and fair enough, but I still feel it wasn’t really fair given the circumstances. I appealed and included both the bank payment record and the failed ticket email, but the appeal got rejected.

I want to appeal again — is there anything else I can say or include? I get that rules are rules, but sometimes genuine mistakes happen, and I feel like there should be a bit of room for understanding. We put up with delays, cancellations and strikes — is it too much to ask for a bit of flexibility when we’re genuinely trying to do the right thing?

Would really appreciate any advice or if anyone’s had a similar experience. Thanks!

You can’t appeal on the grounds that the penalty fare was unfair or unreasonable. The system / legislation governing isn’t set up like that. Aiui appeals have to be on the basis that the penalty fare was incorrectly issued.

You have my sympathy by the way.

 

[AlterEgo]

You can’t appeal on the grounds that the penalty fare was unfair or unreasonable. The system / legislation governing isn’t set up like that. Aiui appeals have to be on the basis that the penalty fare was incorrectly issued.

Or that there are compelling circumstances why the penalty fare should not be paid. But “I forgot to check I bought it” wouldn’t be a compelling circumstance.

 

[JordR]

Penalty fares are intended for circumstances including mistakes. There's no implication of dishonesty with them.

I think your only realistic grounds of a successful appeal is if the penalty fare itself is technically non-compliant. If you could upload it with your personal details redacted and tell us the journey you were intending to make, where you were when it was issued and which train you were on, experts here will be able to check that for you.

 

[Chen]

You didn’t have a ticket and these are valid grounds to issue a Penalty Fare. “It’s harsh” isn’t a valid appeal reason. However, if you upload the notice, with your details redacted, we can examine it the notice was filled in improperly, which may render it invalid.

Thank you for your reply! I’ve added the notice picture. I’ll try one more time and pay for it

 

[AlterEgo]

We need to see the entire notice, just block out your details.

 

[Hadders]

There are three opportunities to appeal a Penalty Fare, and it's only at the third appeal where it gets looked at by a genuinely independent panel.

While unfortunate, a Penalty fare is an appropriate remedy for a situation like this. Expensive and frustrating but think of it likel getting a parking ticket. My normal advice is to pay up before 21-days so you benefit from the reduced rate and chalk it up to experience. Each appeal stops the clock on the 21-days you get to pay at the reduced rate so if money is tight an appeak (even if it is rejected) is a way of extending the time you have to pay at the reduced rate.

There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare is invalid, normally related to the exact wording of signage that must be in place at ths station where you start your journey. I'll let others advice on this but an appeal about this (if the signage is deficient) would need to be written in a very specific way to have a chance of succeeding.

 

[Chen]

We need to see the entire notice, just block out your details.

There are three opportunities to appeal a Penalty Fare, and it's only at the third appeal where it gets looked at by a genuinely independent panel.

While unfortunate, a Penalty fare is an appropriate remedy for a situation like this. Expensive and frustrating but think of it likel getting a parking ticket. My normal advice is to pay up before 21-days so you benefit from the reduced rate and chalk it up to experience. Each appeal stops the clock on the 21-days you get to pay at the reduced rate so if money is tight an appeak (even if it is rejected) is a way of extending the time you have to pay at the reduced rate.

There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare is invalid, normally related to the exact wording of signage that must be in place at ths station where you start your journey. I'll let others advice on this but an appeal about this (if the signage is deficient) would need to be written in a very specific way to have a chance of succeeding.

Much appreciated! Thank you for your advice

You can appeal again, but you will almost certainly get the same outcome. The third appeal is reviewed by an independent group which can have a different outcome.
However you boarded a train without a valid ticket and that is an offence. It would have been sensible to check your ticket on the app before boarding. I am struggling to see what grounds you might have. If they money went out of your account and never came back then this might carry some weight at the third appeal, but I'm not sure how you show that you didn't buy the ticket and give it to someone else.
You probably just need to pay up and learn the lesson not to be in so much of a hurry next time.

Thank you for your advice I’ll appeal again to extend the reduced amount time

 

[furlong]

May we also see the failed ticket email? What reason did it give?
Exactly what ticket did you attempt to buy and at what price?
What did the system you used for purchasing actually say at the end? (I'm not familiar with how trip.com works.)
How did you know the bank payment succeeded? (E.g. did it trigger a notification from a phone banking app?)

The PF notice helpfully explains the reasons available for appeals. E.g. Under reason 4, you could try to persuade them that this sequence of events was not something anyone would expect to happen and your assumption that you had a ticket was one that any reasonable person would have made. (I note that the train I assume you caught is reported as arriving a minute late and leaving two minutes late - speculation: might that have tripped up trip.com if the payment only completed after the scheduled departure time of the selected service?)

 

[P Binnersley]

Looking at Google Streetview, it looks like the Penalty fare notice at Urmston (in July 2022) was only for Northern.

If this is still the case, then Trans Pennine should not have issued the penalty fare as their name is not on the notice and you should mention this in your appeal.

In this case you may have been very lucky.

 

[furlong]

Indeed - try to get pictures of the current PF posters at that station, both showing their contents, and showing their location in content. Check locations of them all, the wording and logos. (We know many don't comply.) That would fall under reason 1 if wrong.

 

[Chen]

May we also see the failed ticket email? What reason did it give?
Exactly what ticket did you attempt to buy and at what price?
What did the system you used for purchasing actually say at the end? (I'm not familiar with how trip.com works.)
How did you know the bank payment succeeded? (E.g. did it trigger a notification from a phone banking app?)

The PF notice helpfully explains the reasons available for appeals. E.g. Under reason 4, you could try to persuade them that this sequence of events was not something anyone would expect to happen and your assumption that you had a ticket was one that any reasonable person would have made. (I note that the train I assume you caught is reported as arriving a minute late and leaving two minutes late - speculation: might that have tripped up trip.com if the payment only completed after the scheduled departure time of the selected service?)

Thank you so much for your support I’ll make sure to be careful next time! I booked the open return ticket for £5.34. The email from Trip.com was received at 14:59 saying it was a technical issue with supplier and I was entitled a refund. The bank took £5.34 right after I paid the first time. I saw the bank notification and then got on the train. I did get a refund after a few days.

Looking at Google Streetview, it looks like the Penalty fare notice at Urmston (in July 2022) was only for Northern.

If this is still the case, then Trans Pennine should not have issued the penalty fare as their name is not on the notice and you should mention this in your appeal.

In this case you may have been very lucky.

Thank you so much

You can’t appeal on the grounds that the penalty fare was unfair or unreasonable. The system / legislation governing isn’t set up like that. Aiui appeals have to be on the basis that the penalty fare was incorrectly issued.

You have my sympathy by

Hi all,

Looking for some advice here – thanks in advance!

A few days ago I got given a penalty fare on a train and I’m still feeling a bit frustrated. It was a last-minute trip and I bought a ticket through the Trip.com app literally 2 minutes before departure. The payment went through straight away (I saw the money leave my account), so I jumped on the train thinking all was fine.

But just after I sat down, the ticket inspector came over, and that’s when I saw an email saying the ticket failed to issue. I honestly didn’t expect that at all. I tried to explain the situation, but the inspector didn’t give me a chance to sort it or repurchase — just handed me a penalty fare notice for £57.

I know they were following the rules, and fair enough, but I still feel it wasn’t really fair given the circumstances. I appealed and included both the bank payment record and the failed ticket email, but the appeal got rejected.

I want to appeal again — is there anything else I can say or include? I get that rules are rules, but sometimes genuine mistakes happen, and I feel like there should be a bit of room for understanding. We put up with delays, cancellations and strikes — is it too much to ask for a bit of flexibility when we’re genuinely trying to do the right thing?

Would really appreciate any advice or if anyone’s had a similar experience. Thanks!

Thank you everyone for your replies! Good night and wishing you all the best I will take these advice and appeal again tomorrow. I will make sure to check my ticket before boarding in the future

 

[Egg Centric]

Don't forget as well you can email Trip.com to ask for a goodwill gesture of them reimbursing you for the penalty fare.

The chances of this are in the single digit percentages I suspect (more than 1%, less than 10%) - but not zero. It's certainly something I'd give a go, you've nothing to lose.

 

[ikcdab]

So as you had a refund, then you didn't actually pay for your journey at all. So you will need to address this in the appeal. That is, how will you pay for the journey you made?

 

[AlterEgo]

So as you had a refund, then you didn't actually pay for your journey at all. So you will need to address this in the appeal. That is, how will you pay for the journey you made?

By way of the fare component of the penalty fare, surely?

 

[ikcdab]

By way of the fare component of the penalty fare, surely?

But the appeal is to avoid paying the penalty. So in the appeal, the OP needs to state how they will pay the fare if the appeal is successful

 

[Knoodlepot]

But the appeal is to avoid paying the penalty. So in the appeal, the OP needs to state how they will pay the fare if the appeal is successful

The appeal is to not pay for the Penalty fare of £50 they will still need to pay for the ticket if requested.
If you win the appeal it does not mean you pay nothing. They can still request the cost of a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

But the appeal is to avoid paying the penalty. So in the appeal, the OP needs to state how they will pay the fare if the appeal is successful

No, they don’t. If the appeal deems the fare still needs paying only the penalty element is cancelled. A penalty fare consists of the penalty element and the fare element.

 

[furlong]

The PF sign you've uploaded was a transitional sign bearing only the Northern logo and it should have been replaced by now. Were there no other signs? If that was the only sign, then you can appeal under reason 1, as:

1(2) The absence of a logo or name, as required by sub-paragraph (1)(f), on a notice only invalidates the notice in relation to the operator whose logo or name is missing.

means the poster counts for nothing in respect of the train company that issued the PF.

Display of Notices
8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.

This requirement was not met if there was no PF notice bearing the train company's logo (TPE) so the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

 

[janb]

In terms of signage as well as any posters there should be more permanent signage such as the one on the station building at street level on the Jul 2022 street view, or possibly a metal sign fixed to railings, so look for that as well.