Got pulled up using Beeston - East Midlands Parkway via Derby

[pjnathanail]

Today I got pulled up for using a ticket from Beeston to East Midlands Parkway between Long Eaton and Derby, which their own website gives an itinerary for. I started short at Long Eaton. The guard and First Class host (it was a First Class ticket) gave the following reasons for it not being valid:

You are going the wrong way
Its not shown on my journey planner
A ticket from Beeston to Derby is more expensive than your one
Its like using a ticket from Derby to Chesterfield via Sheffield
Our website will give you an itinerary from Beeston to East Midlands Parkway via Scotland (Really? That would be nice!)
And, saving the best till last, "You have paid less than all these other passengers, so its not fair!". What about advance/railcard discounts?

I was then escorted across Derby onto a train going the other direction (where the ticket was accepted without question), although fortunately not charged any more.

Am I right in thinking it should be accepted if their website says it is?

 

[bb21]

So you went Long Eaton - Derby - Long Eaton - East Midlands Parkway?

 

[RJ]

What you did was valid because of the group stations rule, which allows you to double back between Long Eaton and Derby inclusive for interchange purposes. You also had the right to pass through the barriers to access the station facilities.

 

[pjnathanail]

What you did was valid because of the group stations rule, which allows you to double back between Long Eaton and Derby inclusive for interchange purposes. You also had the right to pass through the barriers to access the station facilities.

Excellent, that is what I thought but they weren't having any of it. I have had issues with this ticket before, so I will write to EMT customer services to see if I can get a letter confirming validity to show to guards.

So you went Long Eaton - Derby - Long Eaton - East Midlands Parkway?

Yes, that is correct. Thank you for splitting out the thread.

 

[bb21]

Excellent, that is what I thought but they weren't having any of it. I have had issues with this ticket before, so I will write to EMT customer services to see if I can get a letter confirming validity to show to guards.

I reckon you will see the ticket rerouted "Not Via Derby" before you get confirmation from them saying that it is valid.

 

[yorkie]

Make sure that Passenger Focus are contacted if & when EMT fail to give you a proper response.

This is absolutely what I expect from EMT, by the way. I am not in the slightest bit surprised. EMT don't bother following the rules, they think they're above them.

 

[PorageOats]

What's the benefit of travelling Long Eaton - Derby - Long Eaton - East Midlands Parkway on a Beeston - East Midlands Parkway ticket? I see it's legitimately starting short and using Derby as a Group Station interchange, but I can't find any time when the connecting Derby - East Midlands Parkway train does not stop at Long Eaton. The Anytime Day Return is marginally cheaper, which is not relevant here, and the First Class ticket option is available when it seems to be unavailable on a ticket from Long Eaton. What have I missed?

 

[island]

What you did was valid because of the group stations rule, which allows you to double back between Long Eaton and Derby inclusive for interchange purposes. You also had the right to pass through the barriers to access the station facilities.

You can double back within a group for interchange purposes, but it's debatable whether you may start short when using a route that benefits from this exception.

 

[RJ]

I reckon you will see the ticket rerouted "Not Via Derby" before you get confirmation from them saying that it is valid.

I doubt it - there are already some negative easements in place for that triangle but due to services between stations bound by Nottingham, Derby and beyond) and East Midlands Parkway being infrequent, I suppose they allow passengers to take a longer route to reduce the overall travel time.

 

[pjnathanail]

What's the benefit of travelling Long Eaton - Derby - Long Eaton - East Midlands Parkway on a Beeston - East Midlands Parkway ticket? I see it's legitimately starting short and using Derby as a Group Station interchange, but I can't find any time when the connecting Derby - East Midlands Parkway train does not stop at Long Eaton. The Anytime Day Return is marginally cheaper, which is not relevant here, and the First Class ticket option is available when it seems to be unavailable on a ticket from Long Eaton. What have I missed?

I wanted to use the first class lounge at Derby as opposed to standing on the platform at Long Eaton and also to look at the new station entrance that was opened yesterday. As to if this is an acceptable excuse is another matter. One thing to note is that one third of the trains from Nottingham (valid on this ticket) do not stop at Long Eaton, so this should be a legitimate use of the validity.

You can double back within a group for interchange purposes, but it's debatable whether you may start short when using a route that benefits from this exception.

Long Eaton is actually on the valid route without doubling back, the double back is between Long Eaton and Derby. The NRCoC make no mention of the route taken affecting BoJ restrictions.

I suppose it all depends on the definition of interchange. Is it acceptable that I improved the quality of my interchange by using the FC lounge, or is it strictly based on train times?

On a related note, whilst making an interchange using this rule is BoJ allowed? Assuming it was valid via Derby, would I have been allowed to leave the station, go to Westfield, return, and continue my journey?

Also, the EMT journey planner shows the route. Does this mean I can use it? It would happily have given me reservations for my trains if I had booked far enough in advance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I doubt it - there are already some negative easements in place for that triangle but due to services between stations bound by Nottingham, Derby and beyond) and East Midlands Parkway being infrequent, I suppose they allow passengers to take a longer route to reduce the overall travel time.

Lets hope not! If so, I have another similar one which costs more but is more valid, if that's possible. Leicester to Spondon could be done changing at Long Eaton though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I reckon you will see the ticket rerouted "Not Via Derby" before you get confirmation from them saying that it is valid.

If it was to be, would the group stations rule not apply?

 

[bb21]

On a related note, whilst making an interchange using this rule is BoJ allowed? Assuming it was valid via Derby, would I have been allowed to leave the station, go to Westfield, return, and continue my journey?

If you go to the shopping centre then quite clearly you are not interchanging. I doubt you will be able to successfully argue that the two legs before and after you went shopping constituted one journey.

Using station facilities, meanwhile, is a different matter.

Likewise interchanging between two stations (not that it applies in the case of Derby) is also permitted.

Also, the EMT journey planner shows the route. Does this mean I can use it? It would happily have given me reservations for my trains if I had booked far enough in advance.

The journey planner shows you that Beeston - East Midlands Parkway is valid via Derby, which may or may not mean it is permissible to start short at a station en route. As it happens, I believe that it is permitted to start short at Long Eaton (mainly because I cannot see anything to say that it is not permitted) but starting short at Derby is imo not permitted.

If it was to be, would the group stations rule not apply?

A Route restriction will overrule a mapped route.

 

[pjnathanail]

If you go to the shopping centre then quite clearly you are not interchanging. I doubt you will be able to successfully argue that the two legs before and after you went shopping constituted one journey.

Using station facilities, meanwhile, is a different matter.

Likewise interchanging between two stations (not that it applies in the case of Derby) is also permitted.



The journey planner shows you that Beeston - East Midlands Parkway is valid via Derby, which may or may not mean it is permissible to start short at a station en route. As it happens, I believe that it is permitted to start short at Long Eaton (mainly because I cannot see anything to say that it is not permitted) but starting short at Derby is imo not permitted.



A Route restriction will overrule a mapped route.

Just to clarify, I didn't go to the shopping centre, it was hypothetical.
My argument was that I was at Derby for interchange, and my ticket has no BoJ restriction. Why do you believe starting short at Long Eaton is permitted but Derby isn't? I'm curious! Thanks for the clarification re the last point, I hope it doesn't happen!

 

[bb21]

Just to clarify, I didn't go to the shopping centre, it was hypothetical.

I didn't say you were. It was hypothetical.

My argument was that I was at Derby for interchange, and my ticket has no BoJ restriction. Why do you believe starting short at Long Eaton is permitted but Derby isn't? I'm curious!

If you started short at Derby, then quite clearly you were not there for "interchange purposes", which would in turn invalidate the doubleback between Long Eaton and Derby.

That is, unless you used another service to get to Derby on another ticket, and changed onto a service from Derby using this ticket. In which case, can, worms...

As things stand, what you did was valid AFAIK.

 

[yorkie]

I agree that you are valid to double-back for "interchange purposes" only.

Though some people argue that the rules are unclear, but it is certainly intended that you cannot start/finish short on the double-back section, so I would strongly advise against anyone considering doing that.

As you were interchanging, you were valid. A TOC with a competent pricing manager and competent head of revenue, etc would know that you were valid.

 

[John @ home]

I reckon you will see the ticket rerouted "Not Via Derby" before you get confirmation from them saying that it is valid.

If it was to be, would the group stations rule not apply?

That's a very interesting question.

There are already some Easements which seek to prevent travel via some members of a Group but not others. For example,

700087 Customers travelling from Drumgelloch, Airdrie, Coatdyke, Coatbridge Sunnyside, Blairhill, Easterhouse, Garrowhill, Shettleston, Carntyne and Bellgrove to Edinburgh and beyond, may not travel via Glasgow Queen Street and/or Glasgow Central. This easement applies in both directions.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/13-04-18 Easements for ATOC website.pdf

purports to prevent travel from the listed stations via Glasgow to or via Edinburgh but not to or via the other three stations in Edinburgh Group: Dalmeny, Haymarket and South Gyle.

For some journeys, we just don't know whether or not the contradiction between this Easement and the Group Stations paragraph on page 6 of the NRG Instructions renders the Easement void. History suggests that the train companies will go a very long way indeed to seek to prevent a dispute over a contradiction such as this from reaching a Court.

 

[RJ]

A Not Via Derby ticket would be fine as there is an hourly service which takes the direct route between Beeston and East Midlands Parkway without passing through any of the Derby Group Stations. That said, any reasonable person would be justified in using such a ticket to travel via a change at Long Eaton as it wouldn't be clear whether "Derby" under the route restriction meant Derby station or all members of the Derby Group.

 

[pjnathanail]

A Not Via Derby ticket would be fine as there is an hourly service which takes the direct route between Beeston and East Midlands Parkway without passing through any of the Derby Group Stations. That said, any reasonable person would be justified in using such a ticket to travel via a change at Long Eaton as it wouldn't be clear whether "Derby" under the route restriction meant Derby station or all members of the Derby Group.

That service does not convey first class accommodation though

 

[bb21]

That service does not convey first class accommodation though

Then if you are stuck with such a ticket, you should write in afterwards requesting a refund for the difference between the Standard Class fare and the First Class fare.

The existence of a First Class does not guarantee that you can use a route that conveys First Class accommodation.