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Government publishes world’s first ‘greenprint’ to decarbonise all modes of domestic transport by 2050

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LNW-GW Joint

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maybe. but if electric trains get their energy from a non de-carbonised grid, they cant claim zero carbon.
Network Rail says all its electricity is already zero carbon, based on their 10-year contract with EDF (2013-23).
I don't know how the deal is managed, but it must mean that there's that much less zero carbon electricity for everyone else.
Supposedly it comes from EDF's nuclear production, mostly in France.
 
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gallafent

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maybe. but if electric trains get their energy from a non de-carbonised grid, they cant claim zero carbon.
They can either if every unit that Network Rail purchases from its supplier(s) is known to be from a renewable source, or otherwise (and probably easier) enough REGO credits are purchased to match the amount of electricity consumed. The REGO system provides the commercial mechanism to enable this, ensuring that for every unit of energy consumed a renewable unit was supplied to the grid.


How does it work?​

We issue one REGO certificate per megawatt hour (MWh) of eligible renewable output to generators of renewable electricity.

The purpose of the certificate is to prove to the final customer that a given share of energy was produced from renewable sources.
 

Grumpy Git

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It's great that we are putting the effort into using renewables, but it's like swimming against the tide when you see how much coal fired electricity is generated in other parts of the world.
 

reddragon

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It's great that we are putting the effort into using renewables, but it's like swimming against the tide when you see how much coal fired electricity is generated in other parts of the world.

Now which country outsourced its manufacturing to China to get cheap goods and meet its CO2 target again?
 

option

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maybe. but if electric trains get their energy from a non de-carbonised grid, they cant claim zero carbon.

There's nearly 9GW of offshore wind farms under construction at the moment, with more going through the permissions & investment processes.


I could see it being a requirement that, where suitable, any station redevelopments include solar pv.
It's not going to provide traction power, but if some of your station power requirements are met locally, then that's less to be supplied from the grid, & they can claim that a certain % of overall power is zero carbon.
 

Grumpy Git

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Now which country outsourced its manufacturing to China to get cheap goods and meet its CO2 target again?

I know, it's a complete farce. Rich countries can pay to offset their carbon footprint. Much like making road tax expensive for big engined cars, it really doesn't affect the wealthy one iota.
 

GRALISTAIR

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This is going off-topic, but I can't think of anything more pointless than having scores of redundant MTU diesel power packs (on 27-year leases) lying around the network...
You'd surely buy new EMUs and cascade the bi-modes onwards to diesel TOCs (leaving some for running services off the wires).
We'll have to see what GBR makes of the situation, if and when it comes.
Exactly my thoughts too

One incidental advantage of an electric lorry is that it will put an end to the 'elephant races' when a 40 tonne truck running at 90kph tries to overtake another 40 tonne truck running at 89kph. On two lane autobahnen this produces tail-backs which can be kilometres long.
Happens in the US and UK too- really p-----s me off.
 

Techniquest

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Jeepers there's a lot of negativity floating around here! A lot of interesting posts too mind, and I will say overall I've found this thread to be worth the read. I am looking forward to hearing about the electrification schemes when those details get confirmed, promising and positive times ahead!

On page 1 of this thread, someone mentioned people's attitudes need to change in order to make decarbonisation work. Or something like that, I'm in the middle of preparations for work at 3am so I'm not going back to find the quote. Changing attitudes, yes I thoroughly agree, this is an important step. I've got friends who don't want to recycle, and would rather throw their plastic bottles in the general rubbish bins. They're 20-somethings, so old enough to know better and I'm mind-blown at such an attitude.

Quite, I was fuming at myself for throwing a Lucozade bottle in the bin last week and not recycling it, as I had run out of room in my small backpack for it to be recycled when I got back to the house that evening. In my defence, I will mention everything else I had that could be recycled was in the bag, and was put in the green bin when I got back from my adventure some hours later. I could be here for ages discussing recycling, but I'll move on before I get too into one of my biggest pet peeves!

Back to attitudes in general, I'm continually looking for ways to lower my impact on the environment. I don't drive, and have no intention to either, and my rail travels aren't super high anyway these days. Pretty much every carrier bag I get is reused as much as practical, indeed I have a paper Primark bag that acts as a non-recycleable bin. That gets emptied as and when, to be reused for the same purpose until it inevitably falls apart one day. I have a carrier bag from Subway, which also gets reused and one of its recent-ish reuses was to carry supplements for the following day, in a bid to save space in my backpack. So all in, my climate impact is almost as low as possible there.

My favourite way to reduce impact though is to cut out un-necessary uses of electricity. I've been upping my efforts there in recent times, it's only little improvements for now but things like turning the TV off at the wall and unplugging it at night, as well as minimising use of it anyway, and not plugging in my toaster to make beans on toast, even things like 'do I really need the bathroom light on for this use'. It's little things, but when your carbon footprint is already low then it's hard to reduce it much more!

It's no secret I love adventuring, but even with flying I have plans in place to fly much less than previously. Time-critical flights would be slightly different, but where possible adventures in Europe will be done by rail, ferry etc. Adventures requiring flying, such as the USA, New Zealand and others, will have to involve flights but in general, my flying will be much reduced when world exploration returns to being a realistic option.

What I'd like to see from the world is much less packaging that isn't recyclable. I'm talking things like biscuit packets, crisps packets, other things where the plastic tray is recyclable but not the outer plastic wrap. That nonsense belongs in the past, it is high time we started changing. I've even started avoiding buying things in packaging I cannot recycle!

My point is, attitudes can and do change but there's so much more that can be done.

As for the railway, and the main topic here in general, I'm feeling positive about the changes laid down so far. 2050 is a long way off, but I would say such a huge project needs that time. 28 and a half years to implement the biggest changes ever to the UK railway might sound insane, it might sound like it's too slack to really drive forward productivity, but it is realistic. To put all that new OLE up, it's going to take many teams years to do it safely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only so many teams out there who can do such work? To speed up the process, and do multiple routes at once, while also keeping the railway open where possible, there's going to need to be a lot of people trained and educated first. Not to mention equipment manufactured to actually put it all up first, not to mention disrupting many communities to do the works.

Overall, my view is that this is all good news and we're on the right track (pardon the pun) to start cleaning up our act. Things are slowly going to start getting better, and that much is excellent news.
 

Mikey C

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Well if you mean the new bit of the A14 which by-passes Huntingdon entirely, then it's not exactly the kind of road you'd either want or expect to be cycling on. It was designed to take traffic away from the centre of Huntingdon and allow the removal of the old overbridge as well.

Putting a cycle lane along that new bit of the A14 would be akin to putting one alongside the M1.
A common aspect of many road upgrade schemes involves separating local traffic from through traffic, so that where the existing road alignment was roughly kept, through "Motorway" traffic is now separate from local traffic, and a cycle lane provided as well


 

GRALISTAIR

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The car is king attitude needs to change but that will not be easy. Conservatives view the car as one of the ultimate symbols of freedom and very little rail unions can do about them.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The car is king attitude needs to change but that will not be easy. Conservatives view the car as one of the ultimate symbols of freedom and very little rail unions can do about them.
Indeed but they could do something about moving road haulage onto the rails to free up the roads for cars.
 

squizzler

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Conservatives view the car as one of the ultimate symbols of freedom
The Conservatives of the Thatcher/Major era believed just that. They also believed back then that the EU was the ultimate free market! It seems that the Johnson government might be that which finally grasps the nettle of national road pricing, which will confront motorists with the realtime cost of using their cars, something that might encourage them to switch modes. Whilst I disagree with most of their policies, on transport matters at least they seem to be employing some logic!
 

GRALISTAIR

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Indeed but they could do something about moving road haulage onto the rails to free up the roads for cars.
Trust me I agree and do hope it will happen.
Again, could be a difficult sell to some very conservative right-wingers.
The Road Haulage industry saved their a---s during the 1984 miners strike - not rail.

I would love to see more car free zones especially in Town/City centres. Delivery vans only allowed in say 04.30 - 06.30 for example and even then only if they are electric or other non-polluting type.
 

A0

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Indeed but they could do something about moving road haulage onto the rails to free up the roads for cars.

Much discussed on this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rtunities-for-rail.219603/page-4#post-5221759

Rail really isn't suitable for much of the freight shipments. It works for large, heavy, bulk loads. It doesn't work for the kind of deliveries DPD or Hermes do nor the store replenishment the supermarkets need.

The Conservatives of the Thatcher/Major era believed just that. They also believed back then that the EU was the ultimate free market! It seems that the Johnson government might be that which finally grasps the nettle of national road pricing, which will confront motorists with the realtime cost of using their cars, something that might encourage them to switch modes. Whilst I disagree with most of their policies, on transport matters at least they seem to be employing some logic!

Road pricing will be the poll tax on wheels, add in the surveillance which would be needed to monitor who's gone where, when. That's not going to be acceptable to many people.

And if the cost of travel goes up, so will wage demands which will lead to inflation which will cause economic problems.

And extending people's commutes by forcing them onto public transport won't be acceptable either - employers will find it harder to attract and retain staff, which ultimately hits productivity.

So whilst the anti car brigade around here think the argument is going their way, I wouldn't bet on it.
 
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The Ham

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Much discussed on this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rtunities-for-rail.219603/page-4#post-5221759

Rail really isn't suitable for much of the freight shipments. It works for large, heavy, bulk loads. It doesn't work for the kind of deliveries DPD or Hermes do nor the store replenishment the supermarkets need.



Road pricing will be the poll tax on wheels, add in the surveillance which would be needed to monitor who's gone where, when. That's not going to be acceptable to many people.

And if the cost of travel goes up, so will wage demands which will lead to inflation which will cause economic problems.

And extending people's commutes by forcing them onto public transport won't be acceptable either - employers will find it harder to attract and retain staff, which ultimately hits productivity.

So whilst the anti car brigade around here think the argument is going their way, I wouldn't bet on it.

Given the number of ANPR cameras which already exist, I suspect that the issue of surveillance has already been missed.

Anyway, whilst some may think so, cars don't necessarily link to individuals.

For instance if I were to receive a notice that the car which is registered in my name went through a red light from the police, the police still have to ask me if I were driving. As it is it could be anyone who is insured to drive that car (or even someone who had stolen it).

The fact that people view their cars as an extension of themselves (as they each have a car) isn't actually the case and the tracking of cars doesn't equal the tracking of people (unless those people choice to make it possible to do so).

Anyway, if you want to track someone you'd use their phone which would track then whether they are driving or not.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Much discussed on this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rtunities-for-rail.219603/page-4#post-5221759

Rail really isn't suitable for much of the freight shipments. It works for large, heavy, bulk loads. It doesn't work for the kind of deliveries DPD or Hermes do nor the store replenishment the supermarkets need.



Road pricing will be the poll tax on wheels, add in the surveillance which would be needed to monitor who's gone where, when. That's not going to be acceptable to many people.

And if the cost of travel goes up, so will wage demands which will lead to inflation which will cause economic problems.

And extending people's commutes by forcing them onto public transport won't be acceptable either - employers will find it harder to attract and retain staff, which ultimately hits productivity.

So whilst the anti car brigade around here think the argument is going their way, I wouldn't bet on it.
Fixing climate change means departing from accepted norms otherwise we won't change anything
 

ashkeba

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A common aspect of many road upgrade schemes involves separating local traffic from through traffic, so that where the existing road alignment was roughly kept, through "Motorway" traffic is now separate from local traffic, and a cycle lane provided as well


Another common aspect of British road upgrade schemes is that the cycleway does not run the full length of either original or new route. Cambridge to Fenstanton? What about Fenstanton to Huntingdon?

And a cycleway built with the A14 would of course be better not immediately alongside it.

But this is all just details, problems with one example, similar to the problems rail electrification has had of projects being cut back or left not quite joined up. I hope they do better with this plan!
 

A0

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Fixing climate change means departing from accepted norms otherwise we won't change anything

Doesn't change some of the fundamental economics though - and economics beats politics every time and that was the view of Karl Marx no less.

If people end up worse off, inconvenienced or forced to behave in ways they don't like, they will simply look to other politicians who offer a different set of policies.
 

reddragon

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We are helped by the fact that many youngsters have no interest in driving simply as my son says, he can't be online and drive!

Only bulk freight of low value goods will ever work on rail as the low infrastructure flexible HGV will always be better for that.

The issue everyone has missed here is actually getting to the station. I have to drive to my local station. There is no bus and the roads are too steep to cycle for a normal person. I could use an e-bike but then there is no safe storage at the station. Pre-Covid parking was full by 7.30 am.

Getting to the nearest town by public transport costs many times more in time & money making it unviable and the only park & ride site takes longer to get to than the centre.

We do need to make sure reliable end to end options exist.
 

higthomas

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We are helped by the fact that many youngsters have no interest in driving simply as my son says, he can't be online and drive!

Only bulk freight of low value goods will ever work on rail as the low infrastructure flexible HGV will always be better for that.

The issue everyone has missed here is actually getting to the station. I have to drive to my local station. There is no bus and the roads are too steep to cycle for a normal person. I could use an e-bike but then there is no safe storage at the station. Pre-Covid parking was full by 7.30 am.

Getting to the nearest town by public transport costs many times more in time & money making it unviable and the only park & ride site takes longer to get to than the centre.

We do need to make sure reliable end to end options exist.
Quite! I actually thinking large scale investment in (and ongoing funds for) out bus network would be the biggest thing our country could do with regards transport!

Sadly buses are the business of local councils, and they, understandably, have generally prioritised keeping social care etc. over the last few years of savage budget cuts, and definitely don't have much money for bus investment.
 

reddragon

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Quite! I actually thinking large scale investment in (and ongoing funds for) out bus network would be the biggest thing our country could do with regards transport!

Sadly buses are the business of local councils, and they, understandably, have generally prioritised keeping social care etc. over the last few years of savage budget cuts, and definitely don't have much money for bus investment.
The savage cuts due to Margaret Thatcher's bus deregulation in 1986 put an end to good bus services outside of London. Where I now live had good quality regional & rural bus services before that, now there are a handful of services that are useless to anyone bar pensioners on a day out! Just 1 useful route remains from Reading to Oxford via Wallingford.
 

A0

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Quite! I actually thinking large scale investment in (and ongoing funds for) out bus network would be the biggest thing our country could do with regards transport!

Sadly buses are the business of local councils, and they, understandably, have generally prioritised keeping social care etc. over the last few years of savage budget cuts, and definitely don't have much money for bus investment.

But investment is one thing - if people don't use them, then what have you gained ? Running a half-empty 40 seat bus around rural areas does *far* more damage than people running a well maintained modern car.

In most towns there is actually quite a good bus service - usually run commercially, so the councils don't even have to contribute as the farebox revenue covers the costs.

The mistake people have is looking at London or Manchester and then thinking small / medium sized towns should have a bus service "just like there" - ignoring the fact London's bus network is *massively* subsidised and is only justified in the context of a large city, not a market town in middle England.

The savage cuts due to Margaret Thatcher's bus deregulation in 1986 put an end to good bus services outside of London. Where I now live had good quality regional & rural bus services before that, now there are a handful of services that are useless to anyone bar pensioners on a day out! Just 1 useful route remains from Reading to Oxford via Wallingford.

Nonsense - there had been cuts throughout the 1970s as unremunerative routes which were subsidised by local authorities lost their subsidies. And bus rider-ship had been in freefall since the 1950s.

Even if the networks in the 1980s had been maintained you'd still be in the same position today - all you'd have seen is alot of empty buses running around.

Another common aspect of British road upgrade schemes is that the cycleway does not run the full length of either original or new route. Cambridge to Fenstanton? What about Fenstanton to Huntingdon?

And a cycleway built with the A14 would of course be better not immediately alongside it.

But this is all just details, problems with one example, similar to the problems rail electrification has had of projects being cut back or left not quite joined up. I hope they do better with this plan!

Though there are already National Cycle Routes - so a mix of separate and quiet roads between Fenstaton and Huntingdon via Hemingford - details from Cambs CC https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/residents/travel-roads-and-parking/cycling/cycle-routes-and-maps - so there is an 'end to end' route suitable for cyclists. Not completely segregated, but still more than suitable. That said, perhaps we should go down the route of getting cyclists to pay for the infrastructure they demand - so a compulsory tax and 3rd party insurance might be a start.
 
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Mikey C

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Road pricing will have to come in, to replace the vast government income generated by the duty on petrol and diesel, as with electric cars you can't tax the electricity without taxing "domestic" electricity as well.

£28.4bn in 2019/20
 

ashkeba

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Though there are already National Cycle Routes - so a mix of separate and quiet roads between Fenstaton and Huntingdon via Hemingford - details from Cambs CC https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/residents/travel-roads-and-parking/cycling/cycle-routes-and-maps - so there is an 'end to end' route suitable for cyclists. Not completely segregated, but still more than suitable.
Not only not segregated but also not direct, not smooth-flowing and not provided by the A14 rebuild. A national cycle network is needed and it currently looks like it has been "Beechinged" after so many routes were deleted last year, including St Ives to Godmanchester so there is not currently a NCN link to Huntingdon. The route signs are still up only because no one has wasted money changing them but the route numbers will vanish when signs are replaced.

That said, perhaps we should go down the route of getting cyclists to pay for the infrastructure they demand - so a compulsory tax and 3rd party insurance might be a start.
What, in addition to cyclists paying for the infrastructure demanded by motorists and railists? How about a fair share of the transport budget going to cycling for a change and not being diverted to motoring through tricks like resurfacing the whole station car park when a bike park is installed in one corner?
 

A0

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Not only not segregated but also not direct, not smooth-flowing and not provided by the A14 rebuild. A national cycle network is needed and it currently looks like it has been "Beechinged" after so many routes were deleted last year, including St Ives to Godmanchester so there is not currently a NCN link to Huntingdon. The route signs are still up only because no one has wasted money changing them but the route numbers will vanish when signs are replaced.


What, in addition to cyclists paying for the infrastructure demanded by motorists and railists? How about a fair share of the transport budget going to cycling for a change and not being diverted to motoring through tricks like resurfacing the whole station car park when a bike park is installed in one corner?

£ 10.9 bn is spent on roads.

Income from motorists Road fund licence £ 7bn, Fuel duty £ 27bn - These two direct motoring taxes produce just over 4 per cent of all taxes and duties collected in the UK. That's before you start counting VAT on fuel, maintenance, parking or tolls.

Given motorists are very much net contributors to the tax pot I'd reconsider your comments.
 

The exile

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The savage cuts due to Margaret Thatcher's bus deregulation in 1986 put an end to good bus services outside of London. Where I now live had good quality regional & rural bus services before that, now there are a handful of services that are useless to anyone bar pensioners on a day out! Just 1 useful route remains from Reading to Oxford via Wallingford.
Whether or not deregulating bus services would or would not have led to the survival of more rural routes (I suspect the rules on cross-subsidy played a bigger part than deregulation itself) - having deregulated buses is surely now an extra hurdle in the way of fully integrated timetables / fares. I may be wrong, but I can think of precious few areas outside London and the ex-PTEs where any train / bus period tickets are available. We have one here in CUBA (Councils that Used to Be Avon) - but I suspect the survival of the Freedom Travelpass owes a lot to the fact that the rail operator and the dominant bus operator are basically the same company. The other large bus company that is active round these parts do not participate - shame on you, S********h. Fortunately as far as Freedom Pass validity goes, they are a very minor player round here.
 

reddragon

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£ 10.9 bn is spent on roads.

Income from motorists Road fund licence £ 7bn, Fuel duty £ 27bn - These two direct motoring taxes produce just over 4 per cent of all taxes and duties collected in the UK. That's before you start counting VAT on fuel, maintenance, parking or tolls.

Given motorists are very much net contributors to the tax pot I'd reconsider your comments.
Air pollution caused by ICE car emissions is one of the biggest causes of illnesses and the biggest cost to the NHS.

Then if you look at the historic scale of Government subsidies to the oil / gas industry as well, suddenly motoring taxes are not as imbalanced as they appear.

EVs will not cause the level of health issues that ICEs do nor the fossil fuel subsidies so maybe a lot less taxation is actually required from them.

The imbalance comes from those who can charge at home for 5p/kw and those who need public chargers at 40p/kw or more. Taxes are needed to subsidise public charging. The other option is to tax EV power use at home. Home chargers have their own smart meters that report reading to somewhere. A lot easier than road charging I'd say!!
 

A0

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Air pollution caused by ICE car emissions is one of the biggest causes of illnesses and the biggest cost to the NHS.

Nonsense - and this article shows what is https://www.independentnurse.co.uk/...e-most-expensive-condition-for-the-nhs/117826

Then if you look at the historic scale of Government subsidies to the oil / gas industry as well, suddenly motoring taxes are not as imbalanced as they appear.

Much of what you claim are 'subsidies' actually aren't - for example the EU counted a reduced rate of VAT on domestic energy as a 'subsidy' - yet in fact it's nothing of the sort, it's simply a lower rate of tax.

EVs will not cause the level of health issues that ICEs do nor the fossil fuel subsidies so maybe a lot less taxation is actually required from them.

The imbalance comes from those who can charge at home for 5p/kw and those who need public chargers at 40p/kw or more. Taxes are needed to subsidise public charging. The other option is to tax EV power use at home. Home chargers have their own smart meters that report reading to somewhere. A lot easier than road charging I'd say!!

No, but if taxing EVs doesn't happen then the government's about to have a fairly sizeable hole in its finances - so it has a choice, raise direct taxes (income tax), raise indirect taxes (VAT) or introduce taxes on certain things. Subsidising EVs is actually the wrong thing to do, because eventually those subsidies will have to be removed and replaced with taxes.

Funnily enough, I'm due a replacement company car - my employers have (foolishly in my opinion) insisted all new company cars have to be EVs, no hybrids or PHEVs. So I'm going to opt out - and at a stroke my hybrid company car with a CO2 output of 75 ish, will be replaced with a petrol or diesel car with an output of nearer 150. And because it won't be a brand new car (I'm not bothered about the status of having a new car), I'll probably be better off than if I were paying the salary sacrifice for an EV as well as the BIK tax.
 

Grumpy Git

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We are helped by the fact that many youngsters have no interest in driving simply as my son says, he can't be online and drive!

I agree, my lad is 23 now but passed his test when he was 17 and has neither owned a car or driven one since.

Our car (a PHEV) is not insured for anyone under 30 due to the horrendous premium which would be even worse otherwise, (the insurance cost being one thing that is definitely a disadvantage of living in a large city)
 

Ken H

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Network Rail says all its electricity is already zero carbon, based on their 10-year contract with EDF (2013-23).
I don't know how the deal is managed, but it must mean that there's that much less zero carbon electricity for everyone else.
Supposedly it comes from EDF's nuclear production, mostly in France.
all electric comes from the national grid. for someone to say where any bit of electric comes from is just daft.
 
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