Government response to transport committee on IRP

[snowball]

Almost a year after the Commons Transport Select Committee wrote a report on the Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands, the Government's response has been published. No summary is provided. The response is too long for a meaningful quote.

https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/40851/documents/199024/default/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is this the "announcement" of a new Bradford station as promised by Huw Merriman recently?
All is says is that the aim of improving links to Bradford has been added to the scope of the review on the HS2 route to Leeds, whose terms of reference are being written now.
On top of that, it has to be within the £96 billion spending envelope of the IRP (like alternatives to the Golborne link).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have downloaded this and will read over the weekend. I have started to read but found the statement that the Golborne link has not been cancelled but alternative options are being looked at though not within the Select Committee desired timeframe (it will take longer!!).

 

[Snow1964]

I'm intrigued by the reference in section 10 (about route to East Midlands) where it says better connections from Bristol and Cardiff to HS2 and ends with....Government is considering the case for enabling such future provision as part of the Outline business case for the South/West arm.

Almost feels like have suddenly realised if move the main long distance services to HS2, then need to divert the current XC services to/from New Street from South and SW to connect to it.

But the South/West arm of HS2 seems to be a new addition which suggests HS2 is being reconsidered as more of a giant X shape than Y shape, or at least a spur to existing SW line from Midlands (presumably one via Cheltenham)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands: Government response to the Committee’s Second Report

The Government remains committed to looking at alternatives to the Golborne Link. The Government will look at the potential for alternative options to bring benefits to passengers sooner, and to improve on the Golborne Link outcomes, for example in relation to capacity constraints on the WCML. Whilst these alternatives are considered, safeguarding along the Golborne Link will be maintained. This means the Government has kept compensation programmes in place for affected homeowners so that they can still access support as needed. Any decision to pursue an alternative will be announced to Parliament at the appropriate time.

 

[Roast Veg]

I have downloaded this and will read over the weekend. I have started to read but found the statement that the Golborne link has not been cancelled but alternative options are being looked at though not within the Select Committee desired timeframe (it will take longer!!).

They've said about 18 months, but I don't know when they started the clock!

I'm intrigued by the reference in section 10 (about route to East Midlands) where it says better connections from Bristol and Cardiff to HS2 and ends with....Government is considering the case for enabling such future provision as part of the Outline business case for the South/West arm.

This is a reference to services into Moor Street from the South West, not a new HSL.

 

[snowball]

I'm intrigued by the reference in section 10 (about route to East Midlands) where it says better connections from Bristol and Cardiff to HS2 and ends with....Government is considering the case for enabling such future provision as part of the Outline business case for the South/West arm.

Almost feels like have suddenly realised if move the main long distance services to HS2, then need to divert the current XC services to/from New Street from South and SW to connect to it.

But the South/West arm of HS2 seems to be a new addition which suggests HS2 is being reconsidered as more of a giant X shape than Y shape, or at least a spur to existing SW line from Midlands (presumably one via Cheltenham)

I think "the South/West arm" means one of the two possible Bordesley curves, not providing any through running to/from HS2. By "connecting" they mean passengers changing trains.

 

[Snow1964]

This is a reference to services into Moor Street from the South West, not a new HSL.

I think "the South/West arm" means one of the two possible Bordesley curves, not providing any through running to/from HS2. By "connecting" they mean passengers changing trains.

Just that earlier in section 10, refers to from Moor Street towards Leicester as a chord

So it was use of term arm, which suggests considering something considerably longer than a chord, that I was pointing out, why call it an arm if just another chord.

 

[Roast Veg]

I think the "arm" is the wider South West axis, as there will almost certainly be interventions required elsewhere.

 

[snowball]

I think the "arm" is the wider South West axis, as there will almost certainly be interventions required elsewhere.

I can think of several reasons why in my view it can't mean that, for example:

The word "arm" occurs only once in the document. Nothing else is called an arm, for example the NE arm of HS2 isn't called an arm, either as cut back or as it was before.

It occurs in the govt's response to the Committee's Recommendation 10, which is about the Bordesley Chords. The government appears to be at best lukewarm about both chords.

No government document in recent years has mentioned any link from HS2 to the SW, even when the infrastructure enthusiast Johnson was PM. Today the government is desperate to reduce expenditure.

It refers to "the Outline Business Case for the South/West arm" as if this is a concept already known and understood, though not yet completed and published. This would not be the case for any new link to HS2.

 

[Roast Veg]

No government document in recent years has mentioned any link from HS2 to the SW, even when the infrastructure enthusiast Johnson was PM. Today the government is desperate to reduce expenditure.

It refers to "the Outline Business Case for the South/West arm" as if this is a concept already known and understood, though not yet completed and published. This would not be the case for any new link to HS2.

I agree, by "South West Axis" I mean exclusively interventions on existing railway, including Bordesley Chords.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Then we have recommendation 9 about adequately reviewing the undergrounding of HS2 through Manchester but

The analysis concluded that, when compared to a surface station design, an underground station would:
• cause major city centre disruption during the construction period;
• present a very serious and unprecedented construction challenge given the underlying geology and the huge scale of cavern construction required to create the underground station;
• significantly delay the opening of the Western Leg into Manchester by between seven and 13 years; and
• add around £5 billion (2015 prices) to the cost of the Crewe to Manchester scheme.
The Government continues to believe that a combined surface station is best placed to meet the needs of both HS2 and NPR services. The Government believes that the surface station design will deliver opportunities and growth for Manchester at a lower cost and construction impact than the underground alternatives investigated in the study. Petitions against the surface station design are being considered by the Select Committee scrutinising the High Speed Rail (Crewe – Manchester) Bill.

Seeing as Manchester is years off being constructed making a decision now and getting on with it wouldn't impose any delay

 

[snowball]

Then we have recommendation 9 about adequately reviewing the undergrounding of HS2 through Manchester but


Seeing as Manchester is years off being constructed making a decision now and getting on with it wouldn't impose any delay

I don't agree. It would mean throwing away a dozen years of work that have already been done.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I don't agree. It would mean throwing away a dozen years of work that have already been done.

well they've thrown away years of work at Euston

 

[Roast Veg]

well they've thrown away years of work at Euston

It's not clear exactly what has and hasn't been tossed. The footprint of the site will not be changing, and neither will the approach. It's also being changed in an effort to reduce costs.

Manchester is the opposite case - changing the layout drastically, including the alignment and footprint, with a more expensive end result.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's not clear exactly what has and hasn't been tossed. The footprint of the site will not be changing, and neither will the approach. It's also being changed in an effort to reduce costs.

Manchester is the opposite case - changing the layout drastically, including the alignment and footprint, with a more expensive end result.

More expensive isn't in dispute but this is London imposing its designs on Manchester. In Europe they've spent decades putting their main lines underground where they have terminus to improve connectivity and journey times.

 

[Bald Rick]

Seeing as Manchester is years off being constructed making a decision now and getting on with it wouldn't impose any delay

It certainly would impose delay, as the report says.

Also note the second point. That’s code for “we don’t know how it could be built anyway”

In Europe they've spent decades putting their main lines underground where they have terminus to improve connectivity and journey times.

Only in Antwerp and Stuttgart, really. Going underground with HS2 in Manchester wouldn’t improve journey times, and I can’t see how it improves connectivity either - arguably it would be considerably worse.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only in Antwerp and Stuttgart, really. Going underground with HS2 in Manchester wouldn’t improve journey times, and I can’t see how it improves connectivity either - arguably it would be considerably worse.

I think you could add:

Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Leipzig (OK, these 4 only for S-bahn links), Berlin (with a free brown-field N-S city centre route available).
At different times Warsaw, Prague and Lisbon have radically altered their terminal routes to form through corridors.
Madrid now has 2 underground main lines linking its two main stations, and HS trains via Barcelona use an underground through route via Sants.
Milan has a separate W-E underground route, used by some long-distance through services, to complement the Centrale terminus; Naples is somewhat similar.
Bologna HSL went underground.

 

[Bald Rick]

Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Leipzig (OK, these 4 only for S-bahn links)

S Bahn as you say, somewhat easier to build underground than for intercity services

Berlin (with a free brown-field N-S city centre route available).

It’s not really underground though, and as you say, the benefit of a former wall…

Madrid now has 2 underground main lines linking its two main stations

Indeed, but one is essentially an S bahn, the other is barely used

HS trains via Barcelona use an underground through route via Sants.

As above, barely used. (And is the station actually underground? I forget)

Bologna HSL went underground.

Somewhat more simple there.

 

[Class172]

As above, barely used. (And is the station actually underground? I forget)

Certainly felt underground when I used it last year. At the minimum it gave the vibe of the un-refurbished (pre-2015) Birmingham New St station.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Madrid has a new standard-gauge tunnel and will have low-level platforms at Atocha - high-speed services to the north and south of Spain will be linked. Historically you could add Oslo (1980s) and Brussels (1950s). Marseille and Frankfurt Hbf have tunnels planned for main-line services. British railway history is littered with examples of terminal stations being replaced, downgraded or abandoned as the network grew - as I hope the high-speed network will. Indeed in Manchester, Liverpool Road was quickly replaced by Victoria and in Birmingham the original Curzon Street replaced by New Street.

 

[Bald Rick]

Certainly felt underground when I used it last year. At the minimum it gave the vibe of the un-refurbished (pre-2015) Birmingham New St station.

That’s the main station at Sants which is below ground, but not one that was specially built for the cross Barca journey.

 

[Class172]

Ah sorry I misunderstood, I hadn't appreciated you were referring to a separate station (which I wasn't aware of until now!).

 

[stuu]

That’s the main station at Sants which is below ground, but not one that was specially built for the cross Barca journey.

It was, it was built in the 1970s specifically for cross-city/region journeys. It was expanded for the Olympics and again for high speed rail. Its not underground though, it is is covered with an enormous concrete plaza which has never been developed as originally planned

 

[CdBrux]

More expensive isn't in dispute but this is London imposing its designs on Manchester. In Europe they've spent decades putting their main lines underground where they have terminus to improve connectivity and journey times.

If Manchester paid the difference, or most of it, they might be in a place to have their preferred design

 

[The exile]

I think you could add:

Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Leipzig (OK, these 4 only for S-bahn links), Berlin (with a free brown-field N-S city centre route available).
At different times Warsaw, Prague and Lisbon have radically altered their terminal routes to form through corridors.
Madrid now has 2 underground main lines linking its two main stations, and HS trains via Barcelona use an underground through route via Sants.
Milan has a separate W-E underground route, used by some long-distance through services, to complement the Centrale terminus; Naples is somewhat similar.
Bologna HSL went underground.

You could also add Brussels, but I don’t think it’s really fair to include Berlin as the circumstances were unique and not to be wished on any city. Also worth pointing out that, 30 or so years on, that particular job isn’t yet finished….

 

[dm1]

Zürich is far from purely S-Bahn and a solution like the Löwenstrasse station and connecting tunnels opened in 2015 would be great for Manchester.

It has 4 platforms for 400m trains, two per direction. Three of the main Swiss IC lines (IC1, IC5, and IC8) use them, along with some regional services and the EC trains to Munich (at least when they are on time). Further long distance services are planned in the future.

Similar tunnels are planned for Basel, Luzern and potentially even Winterthur (a city with a population of 200,000!).


Even if it would be slightly more expensive, the connectivity and operational benefits make a tunnelled through station in Manchester a no-brainer to me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even if it would be slightly more expensive

if it were slightly more expensive, I’d agree. But it’s not. It’s a lot more expensive, and puts a decade or so on any benefits occurring.

the connectivity and operational benefits

What do you think are the additional connectivity and operational benefits of a tunnelled underground HS2 / NPR station versus the proposed station?

 

[Grimsby town]

if it were slightly more expensive, I’d agree. But it’s not. It’s a lot more expensive, and puts a decade or so on any benefits occurring.



What do you think are the additional connectivity and operational benefits of a tunnelled underground HS2 / NPR station versus the proposed station?

And it would likely require cutting the Ashton line off from the rest of the metrolink for something like a decade while it was constructed. I just don't see enough benefit from an underground station in Manchester and I say that despite living in the city.

 

[WatcherZero]

And it would likely require cutting the Ashton line off from the rest of the metrolink for something like a decade while it was constructed. I just don't see enough benefit from an underground station in Manchester and I say that despite living in the city.

The Government already proposed cutting it off for two years with bus replacement despite local requests for a temporary depot to allow the line to continue operating, locals managed to force through an amendment to the bill requiring a temporary link during station construction.