Govia Thameslink

[mjamez]

Good afternoon all,

Ashamed to admit that this morning at Blackfriars, I was issued with a Govia Thameslink Witness Statement as I was caught ‘sandwiching’ a ticket.

I make no room for excusing my actions but I want to set straight that I am in my first job from Uni and the train fare is almost bankrupting me. It is the last day of the month before pay day and I could not afford the usual ticket.

I have done this on 6 occasions in the last 5 months due to the above reason (buying Hitchin to Stevenage and then City Thameslink to Blackfriars).

I would like advice on the process please and how I admit my guilt and accept any financial consequences outside of court.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum

In brief there are two things that you need to know

- it won't be your choice as to whether you end up in court or not, although there are things you can do to help avoid court
- you will most likely end up paying more than you have saved over the 6 occasions.


In terms of the process, in somewhere between a few days and a few months time, you will get a letter from Govia Thameslink Railway ('GTR'). it will be headed something like 'notice of intended prosecution' but don't panic - they won't have decided yet to prosecute you. That will depend on how you respond to them.

If you don't respond, then almost certainly you will end up in court. But if you keep in touch with them, and can convince GTR that you will not carry on fare dodging, they may well be prepared to agree to settle out of court, for the train fare that you didn't pay, plus the cost of their investigation - something like £150.

If you look through the forum, you will see that @Hadders gives some excellent advice on the sort of thing to say. You will also see that we remind people that while you must not lie, you're not obliged to incriminate yourself - so if GTR only ask you about this one occasion then that's all you need to talk about. But you also need to bear in mind that GTR can talk to whoever you bought your tickets from (whether that's Trainline or another company) and may know about the previous times when you fare dodged: that might make them less likely to be sympathetic, and they may well want you to pay for those journeys as well.

Looking to the future, if you're finding that you're running out of money for the fare at the end of the month, then look at what you can legitimately do to reduce your fares. If you're recently out of university then there's a good chance that you're entitled to buy a 16-25 or 26-30 Railcard for £30 per year which gets you a third off tickets (with a minimum fare in the morning peak of £12). Or if you are in the office more or less every day then a season ticket might save money: annual season tickets are particularly good value, but because they are so expensive many employers provide loans to their staff to buy them (loans which obviously have to be paid back!).

 

[mjamez]

Welcome to the forum

In brief there are two things that you need to know

- it won't be your choice as to whether you end up in court or not, although there are things you can do to help avoid court
- you will most likely end up paying more than you have saved over the 6 occasions.


In terms of the process, in somewhere between a few days and a few months time, you will get a letter from Govia Thameslink Railway ('GTR'). it will be headed something like 'notice of intended prosecution' but don't panic - they won't have decided yet to prosecute you. That will depend on how you respond to them.

If you don't respond, then almost certainly you will end up in court. But if you keep in touch with them, and can convince GTR that you will not carry on fare dodging, they may well be prepared to agree to settle out of court, for the train fare that you didn't pay, plus the cost of their investigation - something like £150.

If you look through the forum, you will see that @Hadders gives some excellent advice on the sort of thing to say. You will also see that we remind people that while you must not lie, you're not obliged to incriminate yourself - so if GTR only ask you about this one occasion then that's all you need to talk about. But you also need to bear in mind that GTR can talk to whoever you bought your tickets from (whether that's Trainline or another company) and may know about the previous times when you fare dodged: that might make them less likely to be sympathetic, and they may well want you to pay for those journeys as well.

Looking to the future, if you're finding that you're running out of money for the fare at the end of the month, then look at what you can legitimately do to reduce your fares. If you're recently out of university then there's a good chance that you're entitled to buy a 16-25 or 26-30 Railcard for £30 per year which gets you a third off tickets (with a minimum fare in the morning peak of £12). Or if you are in the office more or less every day then a season ticket might save money: annual season tickets are particularly good value, but because they are so expensive many employers provide loans to their staff to buy them (loans which obviously have to be paid back!).

Thank you for your response. I am horrified by the choice I made and ready to accept the accountability. The irony is that in 2 weeks time I am moving into a different department - in which I have flexible working meaning the cost of travel will become more manageable. This has now become an anxiety as I imagine they will examine my Trainline App activity and they will wonder why my 5 day a week travel has suddenly reduced to 2/3 days?

I want to completely clear the slate and intend to be upfront about the other occasions. Do you think my offer of honesty will make them more inclined to settle out of court?

 

[AlterEgo]

I want to completely clear the slate and intend to be upfront about the other occasions. Do you think my offer of honesty will make them more inclined to settle out of court?

It is not in your personal interests to voluntarily incriminate yourself. Allow the company to write to you, and see what they allege.

 

[SouthernOne]

Maybe you should look at using a Flexi season-ticket when your days reduce. Or buy tickets from ticket offices when required.

 

[mjamez]

Do you believe it would be beneficial to engage a solicitor? I see on similar threads those in my position are leaning to employing legal counsel.

 

[Hadders]

Do you believe it would be beneficial to engage a solicitor? I see on similar threads those in my position are leaning to employing legal counsel.

My view is there is no need to involve a solicitor at this stage. Govia Thameslink Railway are one of the more reasonable companies to deal with when it comes to this sort of thing, and I would expect you to be offered an out of court settlement as long as you co-operate with them.

 

[Haywain]

Do you believe it would be beneficial to engage a solicitor? I see on similar threads those in my position are leaning to employing legal counsel.

No, I don't believe it would be beneficial and at a starting price of around £500 it wouldn't be cheap either.

 

[Hadders]

To add to what I said upthread, when the letter from GTR arrives post a copy of it in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[superkopite]

This has now become an anxiety as I imagine they will examine my Trainline App activity and they will wonder why my 5 day a week travel has suddenly reduced to 2/3 days?

I doubt they would do this, but you could always start buying tickets from a different retailer

 

[mjamez]

Would anyone be able to give me a rough estimate of what amount of money I need to keep aside to be ready to pay the (non) fine.

My current working is:
£150-200 admin fee
plus
£24.50 x 6 = £147 (if they include my railcard)
or
£36.70 x 6 = £220.20 (if they forgo my railcard [which I expect])

To add to what I said upthread, when the letter from GTR arrives post a copy of it in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.

That would be much appreciated - thank you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would anyone be able to give me a rough estimate of what amount of money I need to keep aside to be ready to pay the (non) fine.

My current working is:
£150-200 admin fee
plus
£24.50 x 6 = £147 (if they include my railcard)
or
£36.70 x 6 = £220.20 (if they forgo my railcard [which I expect])


That would be much appreciated - thank you.

I'd probably keep £500 to one side if you can, as they will probably not include your railcard in the calculation. It won't be more than that, and when it comes in under it might make you feel a little better about the episode.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would anyone be able to give me a rough estimate of what amount of money I need to keep aside to be ready to pay the (non) fine.

My current working is:
£150-200 admin fee
plus
£24.50 x 6 = £147 (if they include my railcard)
or
£36.70 x 6 = £220.20 (if they forgo my railcard [which I expect])


That would be much appreciated - thank you.

I'd probably keep £500 to one side if you can, as they will probably not include your railcard in the calculation. It won't be more than that, and when it comes in under it might make you feel a little better about the episode.

You should be aware that some train companies charge Anytime Singles for the fares they recover - so there's no discount for using a return.

According to BRFares.com (an unofficial but very helpful website) at https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=HIT&dest=ZBF&period=20240205, there are a number of different Anytime Day Single fares from Hitchin to Blackfriars all with identical routing ('.' - i.e. route 'dot'). Why is this? I don't know and while it's interesting it probably doesn't help us here. The lowest is £22.70. So assuming that fare to be valid, and six out and back trips to be repaid, that would give

£22.70 x 6 x 2 = £272.40

to be repaid on top of the admin fee. So it might be safer to see £550 or so as the amount that you will be liable to repay.

 

[mjamez]

I really appreciate all of your assistance - especially when this is a completely self-inflicted crisis.

 

[mjamez]

Hi all - just got home to a Royal Mail ‘We missed you notice’. Is this likely to be my letter from Govia?

 

[greyman42]

Hi all - just got home to a Royal Mail ‘We missed you notice’. Is this likely to be my letter from Govia?

Go to the Royal Mail office and find out.

 

[mjamez]

Hi everyone,

It’s now been 2 months and no letter. Should I be getting worried? I have not changed address (lived here for 7 years). Should I presume they are taking a while as they’re looking into the previous occasions (and the hoards of similar cases)?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Hi everyone,

It’s now been 2 months and no letter. Should I be getting worried? I have not changed address (lived here for 7 years). Should I presume they are taking a while as they’re looking into the previous occasions (and the hoards of similar cases)?

They have another four months, and whilst we see some letters come very quickly (within a couple of days) it's not unusual at all for people to have to wait over 2 months. So long as you are satisfied that they have your correct address then you just need to sit it out.

 

[mjamez]

Hi all,

Attached is the letter I have just received and below is my draft response. I would appreciate any constructive criticism. Thanks.

Dear Fare Evasion Manager,



I value the opportunity you have given me to respond to the letter dated Wednesday 25th April 2024.



On the morning of Wednesday 28th February, I was rightly stopped by a Revenue Inspection Officer at Blackfriars station and was unable to produce a sufficient ticket.



I offer no excuse for the above. I made a shortsighted decision when purchasing the incorrect ticket that morning - one that will stick with me for the duration. I am a young professional who relies on the service you offer Monday through Friday to get to work. Without the rail network, I would have been unable to begin my career and make money to sustain a future and become a contributing member of society.



I am ashamed of the naive choice I made. It did not take into account the bigger picture. I have taken time to reflect and research the impact of fare evasion on the rail network and it is not something I wish to be associated with. Instead, I wish to be contributing to the upkeep and maintenance of the rail service and consequently the social and economic benefits the network provides. It is a lifeline - one that keeps me employed and connected to family.



This is why I want to be transparent and list the occasions prior to Wednesday 28th February that I also made the same nescient choice:



Tuesday 23rd January

Wednesday 24th January

Thursday 25th January

Friday 26th January



I would be grateful for the opportunity to settle my misconduct outside of court. I wish - if you feel it is suitable - to make amends for my act, by paying any fees you deem appropriate; the full, correct fare and any administrative costs that I have created.



I apologise for the inconvenience that I have caused and for the time it has taken to motion the actions to contact me. I wish to assure you that I will never repeat the decision. I am taking assertive action to ensure I do not struggle to pay for my train ticket at the end of the month again by beginning the process of a season ticket loan from my employer which I hope will be in place by May 2024.



Yours faithfully,

I know I am ‘self-incriminating’ but I’ve just received the promotion (and consequent pay rise) that I have been after and can now pay my fare comfortably. My anxiety and conscience needs a clean bill.

 

[Camsus]

I think it's a pretty decent letter, and by providing the other dates, you are demonstrating your willingness to work with them towards a resolution.

 

[MrJeeves]

I feel that the letter is quite wordy and weaves around some of the points you're trying to make.

I think it will be clearer and more straightforward to cut it down, as well as making the life of whoever is reviewing your letter easier.

I've swapped the final two paragraphs (often the staff will scan the letter and generally the first and last bits will be the thing they see the most of), and cut out a lot of the waffle.

Others will be along in due course and may have additional suggestions.

I would not generally suggest it's a good idea to self-incriminate in your reply (obviously don't lie in your reply), but if you wish to do so we cannot stop you.

Dear Fare Evasion Manager,

I value the opportunity you have given me to respond to the letter dated Wednesday 25th April 2024 with reference XXXXX.

On the morning of Wednesday 28th February, I was rightly stopped by a Revenue Inspection Officer at Blackfriars station and was unable to produce a sufficient valid ticket for my journey.

I offer no excuse for the above. I made a short-sighted decision when purchasing the incorrect ticket that morning and - one that will stick with me for the duration. I am a young professional who relies on the service you offer Monday through Friday to get to work. Without the rail network, I would have been unable to begin my career and make money to sustain a future and become a contributing member of society. I am ashamed of the naive choice I made. It did not take into account the bigger picture. I have taken time to reflect and research the impact of fare evasion on the rail network and it is not something I wish to be associated with. Instead, I wish to be contributing contribute to the upkeep and maintenance of the rail service railway and consequently the social and economic benefits the network provides. It is a lifeline - one that keeps me employed and connected to family.

This is why I want wish to be transparent and list the occasions prior to Wednesday 28th February that I also made the same nescient choice did not hold valid tickets for my journeys:

Tuesday 23rd January
Wednesday 24th January
Thursday 25th January
Friday 26th January

I apologise unreservedly for the inconvenience that I have caused my actions and for the time it has taken to motion the actions to you to investigate and contact me. I wish to assure you that I will never repeat the decision. To ensure I do not repeat this error of judgement, I am taking assertive action to ensure I do not struggle to pay for my train ticket at the end of the month again by beginning the process of a have applied for season ticket loan from my employer which I hope will be in place by May 2024 in order to fund my future travel.

I would be grateful for the opportunity to pay settle my misconduct outside of court. I wish - if you feel it is suitable - to make amends for my act, by paying any fees you deem appropriate; the full and correct fares and any administrative costs that I have created caused so that I may settle this matter without the need for court action.

Yours faithfully,

 

[mjamez]

I feel that the letter is quite wordy and weaves around some of the points you're trying to make.

I think it will be clearer and more straightforward to cut it down, as well as making the life of whoever is reviewing your letter easier.

I've swapped the final two paragraphs (often the staff will scan the letter and generally the first and last bits will be the thing they see the most of), and cut out a lot of the waffle.

Others will be along in due course and may have additional suggestions.

I would not generally suggest it's a good idea to self-incriminate in your reply (obviously don't lie in your reply), but if you wish to do so we cannot stop you.

Thank you so much for your help! I think I’ve leaned to rambling as I am quite emotional and embarrassed by the choice I made. Thank you for your rational cuts. Whilst half of the decision to include the portion of admittance is motivated by my conscience, the other half is convinced that if I don’t own up to my actions now that they’ll proceed with court as they’re aware of the other days and they want to see if I admit.

 

[MrJeeves]

Thank you so much for your help! I think I’ve leaned to rambling as I am quite emotional and embarrassed by the choice I made. Thank you for your rational cuts. Whilst half of the decision to include the portion of admittance is motivated by my conscience, the other half is convinced that if I don’t own up to my actions now that they’ll proceed with court as they’re aware of the other days and they want to see if I admit.

It's of course up to you to decide which to choose.

We've seen people on here get settlements for single cases, and then had follow ups from the TOCs when they've checked journey history in the past too. While I don't believe GTR have done this, it doesn't mean they won't in the future, and laying out previous dates should remove them from scope for any future investigation.

On the other hand, you'll increase your settlement cost significantly, potentially unnecessarily!

It's worth checking to see how much you might need to pay out. The anytime single costs £21.70 each way between Hitchin and Blackfriars, so you'd likely be asked to pay 10x this (5 return journeys) at £217.00, plus an admin fee usually between £75 and £150. Maybe yours could be towards the lower end as there'd be limited investigation required.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Of course, fessing up now does remove the risk of a second admin fee on top of the recovered fares if they subsequently come back for more.