Given the fact that there’s currently nothing to abstract from…
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Grand Central apply for Newcastle - Brighton direct
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Howardh
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So from, say, Nuneaton near Birmingham you're in London in 75 mins, then walk to St Pancras in 15, then Gatwick (1hr max) or Brighton in 1.5hrs max including waiting for the next service; looks like the traditional route pips the "new" one; but only just? Avoiding the walk might just tip the journey in favour of the "new" route for some?
Also would there be equivalent seating/services on the "new" train, such as Advance Standard seating, snack bar and so on? If there were then I would absolutely consider Manchester - Birmingham - Brighton as a viable alternative.
Are Redhill and Gatwick Airport still officially congested infrastructure? Can see that being a fun discussion. Can't imagine Arriva will be happy to stump up for any major works to enable the service.
If this is the only reason for doing it, it's not a good one.
They also need to pass the 'making a profit' test for their own shareholders, of course.
FlyingPotato
Member
The benefit of the service for airport passengers I think given the times are very similar, would be that you are sat down and you don't have to move till Gatwick or Brighton (In theory), would be very good if you had loads of luggage, children, were mobility impaired or just wanted less stress. I think GC said they would have a special designed train or that might have been a poster
quantinghome
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Only if it goes via Leicester...
BranstonJnc
Member
This is one of the worst things to ever be proposed.
Quite apart from the fact that Newcastle / York to Birmingham is perfectly well-served (especially if York - Brum via Doncaster is going back hourly with XC), if you're doing pretty much any journey in that list of Newcastle - Derby, all of it can be done rapidly via St Pancras / Kings Cross and Thameslink down. You are not going to sit on a crumby (I suspect initially surplus 180) round the houses.
Then, there's the sheer stupidity of trying to thread a service into the North Downs which eventually will be 3tph won't it? At least between Reading and Guildford.
I would immediately assume that the smartest way of doing this would be to run down to Finsbury Park, round the Camden Road, over the North London, down West London and onto the Southern. This would remove needing to reverse at Redhill (which is congested), and trying to get into the mix with freight via Solihull and Oxford.
You would also have the added benefit of being able to add a call in at Finsbury Park in a sort of "out of London" way, giving you the option of cheaper tickets from the North East to there; you could stop at a major station like West Hampstead, as well as Shepherds Bush (Olympia is old hat), and somewhere like Balham.
Quite apart from the fact that Newcastle / York to Birmingham is perfectly well-served (especially if York - Brum via Doncaster is going back hourly with XC), if you're doing pretty much any journey in that list of Newcastle - Derby, all of it can be done rapidly via St Pancras / Kings Cross and Thameslink down. You are not going to sit on a crumby (I suspect initially surplus 180) round the houses.
Then, there's the sheer stupidity of trying to thread a service into the North Downs which eventually will be 3tph won't it? At least between Reading and Guildford.
I would immediately assume that the smartest way of doing this would be to run down to Finsbury Park, round the Camden Road, over the North London, down West London and onto the Southern. This would remove needing to reverse at Redhill (which is congested), and trying to get into the mix with freight via Solihull and Oxford.
You would also have the added benefit of being able to add a call in at Finsbury Park in a sort of "out of London" way, giving you the option of cheaper tickets from the North East to there; you could stop at a major station like West Hampstead, as well as Shepherds Bush (Olympia is old hat), and somewhere like Balham.
I think that was removed following the platform 0 work at Redhill and the Gatwick remodelling.
(Sorry, can't easily quote)
via Bedford and Oxford preferably......... (as this the new 'must have' route)
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swt_passenger
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If they’ve found 5 spare paths between York and Newcastle, why can’t the proper XC operator use them to extend their Reading to York services back to their full length, and full almost hourly frequency?
BranstonJnc
Member
To be fair, if I was XC, I'd sooner not extend the services. Releases some units, and crew, and saves a bit of extra bother. There are times when we would have to say that as part of the greater good, people should be turfed off a train with 4 coaches onto one of many with 9 or 10 coaches (LNER, XC via Leeds) so that capacity is used effectively.
Statto
Established Member
Via Kensington Olympia was the traditional route for XC services to & from Brighton before that was withdrawn.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
And all it takes for one of these services to break down and bugger up the BML (Brighton mainline) 
MatthewHutton
Member
Current trip times are 4h30 Newcastle-Brighton, 3h40 from Sheffield and 3h from Birmingham using the Deutsche Bahn Website as that gives slightly less overpadded London connections.
357
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Isn't that the same for any train on any two track mainline?And all it takes for one of these services to break down and bugger up the BML (Brighton mainline)
FlyingPotato
Member
I was using the avoiding London times as that's the route it will be taking
LittleRedTrain
Member
Like most on this thread, I'm very sceptical that this will ever happen.
However, any proposal to improve the capacity on the Birmingham-Oxford-Reading axis is welcome, as the existing XC service is really not fit for purpose.
Unfortunately, it sounds like this one would still involve running silly short trains that waste valuable paths, rather than at least 8/9 car sets that could cope with both short and long-distance demand.
A direct link Birmingham-Gatwick service also makes some sense to provide better airport links, but with the constraints on the North Downs Line, I don't see it happening any time soon.
However, any proposal to improve the capacity on the Birmingham-Oxford-Reading axis is welcome, as the existing XC service is really not fit for purpose.
Unfortunately, it sounds like this one would still involve running silly short trains that waste valuable paths, rather than at least 8/9 car sets that could cope with both short and long-distance demand.
A direct link Birmingham-Gatwick service also makes some sense to provide better airport links, but with the constraints on the North Downs Line, I don't see it happening any time soon.
Bishopstone
Established Member
Putting Brighton and Gatwick back on the cross-country network sounds like a great idea to me (in East Sussex, admittedly), but I note the wall of pro-railway (presumably?) folk who think that having more trains, opening-up more direct journey opportunities, at no direct cost to the taxpayer, in a time of climate concern, is somehow a terrible idea.
If the DfT/Government think this operation would be so successful that it would leech revenue from their subsidised entities, they could tender or directly operate a similar service themselves.
If the DfT/Government think this operation would be so successful that it would leech revenue from their subsidised entities, they could tender or directly operate a similar service themselves.
The Planner
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It will be interesting to see what they are expecting to be flexed to make this work. I wonder if they are looking for the slots the XC are currently not using.
Adam Williams
Established Member
If you're going through it anyway, surely a call at Leamington would be in order.
Snow1964
Established Member
To be fair, XC (and BR before them) have rather thinned out the service over the years, until the mid 1970s many trains ran using Warwick route instead of through Coventry
And when XC was first privatised still had trains to South Coast, (both Brighton and Portsmouth) both now dumped. Could interpret it as not wanting the revenue, so they can't really complain about abstraction.
Back in 1980s and 1990s XC via Oxford might have been 2 hourly, but would get 10-12 carriages, nowadays XC is hourly but often only 4 or 5 carriages, and risk of overcrowding or struggling to get on at Oxford as only 4car train is provided is high. XC seems to be pricing to limit demand (even if low profitability), not encouraging travel from Warwickshire to Sussex
The Planner
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That is fine, as long as its not detrimental to the actual running of the network. Just because a path might be there, doesn't mean it doesn't tip performance over the edge. It would leach off existing intermediate flows and still doesn't mean its the correct thing to allow.
They have either decided that is too abstractive off XC, or it doesn't work in the timetable.
aftv
Member
LikewiseI'd use it, as I live near to Gatwick. Hope it happens
godfreycomplex
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Quite
renegademaster
Established Member
Would a Thameslink core service ever be allowed or would it be refused on the basis of no paths?
BranstonJnc
Member
Well apart from the fact you'd probably be mandated to have ETCS on the units being used, and the fact that there's restrictions on what diesel-powered things can go into the Core (City Thameslink fire alarms?), you'd only be able to do it off-peak as at peak times the service ramps up. I'd also be interested to see how it all works with trying to send an Intercity-type train into the core which would need 2 minute dwell times at stations, rather than 30 / 60 seconds.
Cricketer8for9
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And via Kensington Olympia puts one on the slow side of the Brighton Main Line (note the Engineer's Line Reference is VTB not BML) at Clapham Junction requiring northbound trains to cross the down fast at Balham and the down slow at Clapham Junction and southbound ones to merely cross the up slow at Balham.
In general I'd support frequent trains onto which connections can be made than infrequent ones. The former is much better for network connectivity, though the rise of advance tickets suggests the longer distance operators aren't worried so long as they know the yield of each train.
In general I'd support frequent trains onto which connections can be made than infrequent ones. The former is much better for network connectivity, though the rise of advance tickets suggests the longer distance operators aren't worried so long as they know the yield of each train.
They have an order in for Hitachi AT300s to replace their current fleet, I expect they will have follow-on options for more approved routes.
Indeed. The irony of Arriva’s own press release stating that the reason for this is “providing vital connectivity for underserved communities along the route” considering that 75% of that parallels its own franchise, it could be argued that Arriva itself is the ones underserving those communities!
More than likely refused for several reasons (and why you’ll never see anything other than 345s through the CrossRail Core). Pathing, gauging, signalling, all of the above.