Grand Central's long waits at Wakefield Kirkgate

[TUC]

Sort of off-topic, but I thought it would be better suited here than a whole new topic.

On the topic of long-waits, I noticed that EM to LDS can sometimes have some lengthy stops along the route...is it the same reason with GC i.e. pathing or is it just a simple schedule pad?

1815 from STP has 26m in NOT
1932 from STP has 20m in NOT and 17m at SHF

Can you please repost with full station names?

 

[Domh245]

Can you please repost with full station names?

EM: East Midlands
LDS: Leeds
STP: St Pancras
NOT: Nottingham
SHF: Sheffield

I thought those were all fairly obvious?

 

[button_boxer]

Sort of off-topic, but I thought it would be better suited here than a whole new topic.

On the topic of long-waits, I noticed that EM to LDS can sometimes have some lengthy stops along the route...is it the same reason with GC i.e. pathing or is it just a simple schedule pad?

1815 from STP has 26m in NOT
1932 from STP has 20m in NOT and 17m at SHF

More that East Midlands Trains only really serve Leeds at all for operational reasons - the HSTs need to get up there for maintenance so they might as well take passengers rather than run empty.

 

[PHILIPE]

EM: East Midlands
LDS: Leeds
STP: St Pancras
NOT: Nottingham
SHF: Sheffield

I thought those were all fairly obvious?

To some, but not to everybody.

 

[Retorus]

To some, but not to everybody.

Not hard to Google them either, though.

 

[berneyarms]

Not hard to Google them either, though.

That's not the point - board rules state:

Please remember many members do not understand rail “jargon” (including acronyms, station codes and specialist terms). Such terms should be correctly defined the first time they are used; codes and abbreviations must not be made up.

I don't think following that rule is that difficult?

It makes reading the board a more pleasant experience - it's a nuisance having to google acronyms.

 

[Starmill]

I don't follow your logic. It's not "wasted" track capacity, even if other trains serve those two stations, because GC trains are usually full.

It might be track capacity Brian Souter would rather have for himself, in order to price gouge provide an enhanced VTEC service, but that isn't the same thing at all.

The logic is fairly simple, Grand Central's track access application is based on them generating a new market rather than competing with GR for the same market. The ORR are very soft about this and will allow something through even with only 30% organic growth and the remaining 70% abstracted from existing services. This is not good for the efficiency of the railway, the 'competition for the market' structure or the taxpayer. The capacity is wasted if all of those people would have been on a GR service, which given it's Wakefield and Doncaster and they have 2 and 3 1/2 of such services respectively per hour already it's hard to believe that GCs slow wifi and a cup of coffee is making all the difference. Competing on price you say? Good, so you admit that they're cream-skimming.

It might be track capacity Brian Souter would rather have for himself, in order to price gouge provide an enhanced VTEC service, but that isn't the same thing at all.

This point however is getting closer to what matters. I'm increasingly sure that the net influence of Grand Central on the market is a negative one, but this pales in comparison with the damage that weak price controls have done. Rather an issue for another thread though!

 

[Class 170101]

Sort of off-topic, but I thought it would be better suited here than a whole new topic.

On the topic of long-waits, I noticed that EM to LDS can sometimes have some lengthy stops along the route...is it the same reason with GC i.e. pathing or is it just a simple schedule pad?

1815 from STP has 26m in NOT
1932 from STP has 20m in NOT and 17m at SHF

In the case of Nottingham don't forget the train crew have to change ends, this takes some time (albeit not all the amount allowed here).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The logic is fairly simple, Grand Central's track access application is based on them generating a new market rather than competing with GR for the same market. The ORR are very soft about this and will allow something through even with only 30% organic growth and the remaining 70% abstracted from existing services. This is not good for the efficiency of the railway, the 'competition for the market' structure or the taxpayer. The capacity is wasted if all of those people would have been on a GR service, which given it's Wakefield and Doncaster and they have 2 and 3 1/2 of such services respectively per hour already it's hard to believe that GCs slow wifi and a cup of coffee is making all the difference. Competing on price you say? Good, so you admit that they're cream-skimming.

This point however is getting closer to what matters. I'm increasingly sure that the net influence of Grand Central on the market is a negative one, but this pales in comparison with the damage that weak price controls have done. Rather an issue for another thread though!

I diagree. I think open Access has made East Coast up its game. There would be no diversions via Spalding, Lincoln or Durham Coast without them.

In terms of people travelling innovation may have brought people to the railway who would not have used them otherwise. More competition on the West Coast is now needed to make them up their game rather than throwning their toys out of the pram. As far as price goes I thought East Coast fares were comparably cheaper than an equivalent distance on the West Coast.

 

[TUC]

I'm increasingly sure that the net influence of Grand Central on the market is a negative one, but this pales in comparison with the damage that weak price controls have done.

The best price control is competition.

 

[Iskra]

I'm not quite sure this point is getting across properly.

For London custom:

Wakefield and Doncaster - duplication. Pretty much wasted track capacity because these places already have a good service.

Bradford, Halifax and Brighouse have a good service to Wakefield and Doncaster? I'd say its dire considering only GC provide anything other than a token service. There are people using the GC services between the Yorkshire stations only.

Pontefract - insignificant and and basically an operational oddity. Or else why not serve there with all trains?

Mirfield and Brighouse - these are very small settlements in themselves. Most of their custom comes from surrounding towns, primarily Huddersfield, which are sizeable but cut off. Once Dewsbury and Huddersfield have faster direct London trains, how many people will still get dropped off at Brighouse or Mirfield to use a slower service?

Brighouse has a population of 32000. Mirfield 18600. Neither of those are 'very small,' less so when you consider they are usable from Dewsbury (63k), Batley (50k), Cleckheaton (15k) and Heckmondwike (17k) plus a lot of smaller places around them! A good number of people board/alight at Mirfield/Brighouse when I use GC. I don't believe Huddersfield contributes many passengers at Brighouse, most Huddersfield passengers seem to travel to Wakefield or Leeds and travel from there. In many parts of the country those towns I've listed alone would be considered a decent market!

Bradford - under serious threat from VTEC.

How many VTEC trains a day? VTEC only compete for the early morning London-business travellers. GC get all the other Bradford-London passengers for themselves ie. business users who aren't in a rush/or are compelled to travel as cheaply as possible or leisure travellers who don't want to be up at the crack of dawn. GC from Bradford is under more threat from the future Northern Connect Bradford-Leeds-Wakefield services, which clearly indicates someone believes an untapped market exists here.

This leaves just Halifax (and Low Moor, if it opens and you're allowed to call there). Halifax alone, especially with those journey times and times of day will not be sufficient for this service.

And Wakefield. And all the others. And the Calder valley stations which feed Halifax.

For Doncaster custom: well is there any? I've used it to and from Doncaster from West Yorkshire but it doesn't look like many others do. The journey is painfully slow, followed from Doncaster by a quicker service and there is no price differential at all*, so it's not looking great.

I disagree. I've seen plenty of inter-Yorkshire journeys on these services. It may be slow, but is quicker on some journeys, avoids changing on others or is simply much more comfortable against other journeys.

Do Grand Central make any effort to entice London passengers from Leeds, Shipley, Keighley, Ilkley Garforth, Harrogate, Skipton or New Pudsey onto their services? No.

All of these points are subtly different for the Sunderland route, which is clearly rather more robust.


*yet you have managed to get dedicated tickets for the burgeoning Eaglescliffe to Thirsk market? Wakefield to Doncaster is way overpriced and there's plenty of room on the train, start cutting prices!

The GC services are getting pretty busy now when I use them. However, I do echo the sentiments of some other posters saying that GC need to improve their catering and rolling stock though if they want to compete post-ECML IEP delivery.

 

[Starmill]

The best price control is competition.

So why do we have franchising?

I disagree. I think open Access has made East Coast up its game.

This may well be true and the threat of competition, known as contestability, is an important effect. But it doesn't go much beyond that.

There would be no diversions via Spalding, Lincoln or Durham Coast without them.

This I think totally unsupported.

In terms of people travelling innovation may have brought people to the railway who would not have used them otherwise.

But how? And why? The people using Grand Central have been brought into the market for the benefits GC provide how, exactly? They don't have any special appeal to lots of people who would otherwise not have travelled by train, that's the whole point. As far as I can see they are going after people who want cheap tickets.

More competition on the West Coast is now needed to make them up their game rather than throwing their toys out of the pram.

To what end? Higher quality and lower fares? This can be achieved through regulation, during the Franchise competition, if DfT had the spine.

As far as price goes I thought East Coast fares were comparably cheaper than an equivalent distance on the West Coast.

Swings and roundabouts. The cheapest flexible tickets (i.e. those with the most value to the average traveller) are vastly more expensive on the East Coast. The Advance availability on GR is being reduced from my point of view (and indeed those of many others).

I disagree with your analysis- see comments in bold. The GC services are getting pretty busy now when I use them. However, I do echo the sentiments of some other posters saying that GC need to improve their catering and rolling stock though if they want to compete post-ECML IEP delivery.

Please don't put replies within a quote box, it's now impossible for me to reply as well without doing lots of extra work.

1 No. Reread the post, I'm talking about the market for London traffic from Wakefield and Doncaster. Yes people do use Grand Central 'North of Doncaster' - I have done so myself. But there are very few, not least because GC are making no effort to encourage them.

2 They are small in the context that I am talking about which is how well used the direct service to London is. A good number of people do use GC to Mirfield and Brighouse. But how many of them will not find a faster train to Dewsbury or Huddersfield more convenient?

3 Haven't you been following? GR will be serving Bradford with at least 5 return journeys a day - and all of them will be rather quicker than the GC trains. As Northern Connect are not serving London I don't see the relevance.

4 You definitely haven't been following. I've already explained why GC taking Wakefield - London custom is bad for the Railway Industry because it is cream-skimming.

5 I've already kinda answered this. There's a little bit.

Ask yourself the following. If the trains were made Set Down Only Southbound at Wakefield and Doncaster and Pick Up Only Northbound at those stations, how many people would be on each train? This is the market that Grand Central should be judged on. If they are not getting good results in this market, their service will either fail or continue as a Zombie in the market, taking from it causing inefficiency while being unable to make Normal Profit. I like the idea of competition getting us better results. But it's just not what's happening on this route.

 

[johnnychips]

I suppose you can justify GC creating a 'new' product from Wakefield and Donny because the departure point in Wakefield is Kirkgate not Westgate, and (correct me if I'm wrong) there are no non-stop EC trains from Doncaster to Kings X. If there are now, I don't think there were when GC started. I suppose that's the reason HT don't stop at Peterborough. However, I'm surprised GC were allowed to pick up at York on their Sunderland services because I thought there were EC non-stop services (or did they stop at Peterborough?).

 

[ainsworth74]

I suppose you can justify GC creating a 'new' product from Wakefield and Donny because the departure point in Wakefield is Kirkgate not Westgate, and (correct me if I'm wrong) there are no non-stop EC trains from Doncaster to Kings X. If there are now, I don't think there were when GC started. I suppose that's the reason HT don't stop at Peterborough. However, I'm surprised GC were allowed to pick up at York on their Sunderland services because I thought there were EC non-stop services (or did they stop at Peterborough?).

You'll have to forgive me but what does non-stop services have to do with anything?

 

[johnnychips]

You'll have to forgive me but what does non-stop services have to do with anything?

I have no idea how these things work but I would imagine:

GC: We want to pick up at Doncaster.
Rail Regulator: No you can't, you're abstracting traffic from EC.
GC: Aha, but at the moment you can't travel non-stop from Doncaster to Kings X so we're offering a new product which will not abstract traffic but attract new customers.

And I would guess that that's the same reason HT's last stop is Grantham. EC trains not stopping at Peterborough from these two stations is relatively new.

 

[yorksrob]

You'll have to forgive me but what does non-stop services have to do with anything?

I think it's well recognised that people like an express journey.

That said, the reason why GC does well from Doncaster seems to have a lot to do with VTEC not stepping up to the mark in terms of providing affordable tickets.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's well recognised that people like an express journey.

But that's exactly what GC don't provide to anyone but Doncaster <> London passengers! :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

But that's exactly what GC don't provide to anyone but Doncaster <> London passengers! :roll:

Not true from experience - I catch them from Wakie ! And there are usually quite a few already on by then.

 

[johnnychips]

And also, I suppose, if GC and HT don't stop at Peterborough they are not abstracting EC's connecting passengers to Cambridge, Norwich and Stansted.

 

[johntea]

The very first time I used Grand Central we got to stop at Peterborough and I ended up at Kings Cross on an East Coast...

...Because someone had got their hot air balloon stuck in the wires so we ended up having to terminate at Peterborough and resuming on any available train later in the day!

I also really couldn't be bothered claiming delay repay for the £8 or so that the ticket cost!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not hard to Google them either, though.

Google tells me no station has the CRS code "EM".

The logic is fairly simple, Grand Central's track access application is based on them generating a new market rather than competing with GR for the same market. The ORR are very soft about this and will allow something through even with only 30% organic growth and the remaining 70% abstracted from existing services.

Upon departure from Brighouse I'd say the trains I take are usually about 30-40% full, with more boarding in Mirfield.

4 You definitely haven't been following. I've already explained why GC taking Wakefield - London custom is bad for the Railway Industry because it is cream-skimming.

How, exactly, is it "cream skimming"? It isn't an ORCATS raid because ORCATS doesn't apply to advance or TOC Only tickets.

It may be a competing product to VTEC, but that isn't the same thing at all.

You are simply assuming that those people might have travelled on VTEC instead if GC didn't exist, and then spinning that assumption into a negative.

I'll put it another way: GC operate a train that is full of passengers who have bought a ticket for that specific train. How is that "wasting capacity"? If GC didn't run that train then one of three things would happen: either VTEC would run that train instead (in which case your only beef is that Arriva are getting the money rather than Stagecoach- boo hoo hoo), everyone would travel on an existing VTEC service (causing more overcrowding- bad for passengers but good for Brian Souter's profit margin) or everyone would travel by an alternative method of transport.

You'll be trying to tell me that Chiltern Railways are a waste of space too because they dare to compete on price and quality with the Blessed Richard from the West Midlands.

But that's exactly what GC don't provide to anyone but Doncaster <> London passengers!

Grand Central are faster from Halifax and the Calder Valley than VTEC are.

However, I'm surprised GC were allowed to pick up at York on their Sunderland services because I thought there were EC non-stop services (or did they stop at Peterborough?).

East Coast didn't operate many non-stop York-London trains before Grand Central, pretty much everything during the day stopped at Doncaster and/or Peterborough. Grand Central started taking walk up passengers with the promise of an express service to York so, lo and behold, EC brought in the Eureka timetable which had an hourly York-London non-stopper. An excellent example of competition improving the existing product.

 

[Class 170101]

So why do we have franchising?

This may well be true and the threat of competition, known as contestability, is an important effect. But it doesn't go much beyond that.

This I think totally unsupported.

But how? And why? The people using Grand Central have been brought into the market for the benefits GC provide how, exactly? They don't have any special appeal to lots of people who would otherwise not have travelled by train, that's the whole point. As far as I can see they are going after people who want cheap tickets.

To what end? Higher quality and lower fares? This can be achieved through regulation, during the Franchise competition, if DfT had the spine.

Swings and roundabouts. The cheapest flexible tickets (i.e. those with the most value to the average traveller) are vastly more expensive on the East Coast. The Advance availability on GR is being reduced from my point of view (and indeed those of many others).

In past years when GNER was the first private operator (since 1993 Railways Act) there were no diversions via the Durham Coast - it was all buses. The same for Peterborough to Doncaster via Spalding and Lincoln. As I recall the only routes they had were via Carlisle insead Berwick and via Swinderby instead of Retford. Other diversions were not signed by East Coast. Bus replacement was used the Peterborough to Doncaster section being known for this.

What about those that value direct trains? Why are East Coast now offering services to Sunderland and in future to Middlesbrough plus more frequent services to Bradford and Harrogate. (Skipton as well?)

DfT is now in Tory hands who don't approve of regulation. Regulation isn't always the best answer anyway.

Granted the number of cheap tickets is being reduced but that reflects the premium payments to the government, in effect one set of users subsidising another set - note the railway apparently now breaks even on a day to day basis but some franchises still receive subsidy (eg Northern). However I do agree that passengers suffer on the East Coast operator. Should First get their open access operation though this may change.

 

[Starmill]

Not true from experience - I catch them from Wakie ! And there are usually quite a few already on by then.

What you said was 'express journey'. I was pointing out that Grand Central are not express to London from anywhere but Doncaster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I also really couldn't be bothered claiming delay repay for the £8 or so that the ticket cost!

You didn't have a choice; Grand Central do not operate Delay Repay.

 

[30907]

What about those that value direct trains? Why are East Coast now offering services to Sunderland and in future to Middlesbrough plus more frequent services to Bradford and Harrogate. (Skipton as well?)

A minor historical observation: regular through services to Bradford (Ex), Harrogate and Middlesbrough were part of the original EC HST plans, and the only reason they were cut was Government refusal to fund enough units to cope with increased traffic.Not sure the post IEP plans are anything other than a natural development in a growing market.

And on W Yorks traffic: I suspect from observation that Shipley generates more London etc traffic than Bradford, because it is easier to reach from the city's primary residential areas and has better parking (at 0636/0715 anyway!), and the former is probably true of Brighouse and Mirfield.

 

[yorksrob]

What you said was 'express journey'. I was pointing out that Grand Central are not express to London from anywhere but Doncaster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You didn't have a choice; Grand Central do not operate Delay Repay.

Possibly true - although the last couple of times I've been on it it's gone via Crofton, so not as circuitous as one might think (though missing out Pontecarlo does weaken its 'new market' remit).

Perhaps not getting there as early is partly made up for by the sensation of speed in going down the ECML nob-stop

 

[Starmill]

In past years when GNER was the first private operator (since 1993 Railways Act) there were no diversions via the Durham Coast - it was all buses. The same for Peterborough to Doncaster via Spalding and Lincoln. As I recall the only routes they had were via Carlisle insead Berwick and via Swinderby instead of Retford. Other diversions were not signed by East Coast. Bus replacement was used the Peterborough to Doncaster section being known for this.

Well that may well be the case but I'm lost as to why this wouldn't have been possible without Grand Central.

What about those that value direct trains? Why are East Coast now offering services to Sunderland and in future to Middlesbrough plus more frequent services to Bradford and Harrogate. (Skipton as well?)

Because the DfT gave them some requirements and some options on new direct destinations, and the winning bidder committed to all of the former and some of the latter.

DfT is now in Tory hands who don't approve of regulation. Regulation isn't always the best answer anyway.

But they do approve of this model of Franchising (NB many parties inc Labour and Green do not) and are committed to it. OAOs can undermine it. There can be no doubt that that's a risk. Especially with only a 30% NPA threshold.

Granted the number of cheap tickets is being reduced but that reflects the premium payments to the government, in effect one set of users subsidising another set - note the railway apparently now breaks even on a day to day basis but some franchises still receive subsidy (eg Northern). However I do agree that passengers suffer on the East Coast operator. Should First get their open access operation though this may change.

Quite, for the worse. Higher fares =/= larger premium payments. Better market segmentation and more effective price discrimination are how you increase your revenue. You also need to increase demand in other ways (investment, marketing and so on). Another OAO will make this all the more difficult.

I'm shocked at the level of criticism I'm coming in for. I do not defend the way Competitive Tendering is used to generate our current rail franchises: I think they are too expensive and not very efficient, the price controls are a joke and the deal for the taxpayer and is unlikely to be value for money in many of these competitions. But allowing one company to cream skim in the way that Grand Central to Bradford (note I don't say this about Hull Trains and they have more market in common with VTEC, and I'm much less critical of the Sunderland operation) do is just not the answer. Mark my words there needs to be a material change to the Bradford route if it's going to survive.

 

[johntea]

Don't worry about the long wait at Wakefield Kirkgate any longer!

...as I read in the local rag this morning that Grand Central are planning to open a first class lounge at the station!

Yes - read that again - a first class lounge at Wakefield Kirkgate station! hock:

 

[yorksrob]

Don't worry about the long wait at Wakefield Kirkgate any longer!

...as I read in the local rag this morning that Grand Central are planning to open a first class lounge at the station!

Yes - read that again - a first class lounge at Wakefield Kirkgate station! hock:

Perhaps they should concentrate on accumulating facilities for everyone, including steerage, before embarking on luxury projects.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps they should concentrate on accumulating facilities for everyone, including steerage, before embarking on luxury projects.

They need some kind of USP. They haven't got one at present.

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps they should concentrate on accumulating facilities for everyone, including steerage, before embarking on luxury projects.

I thought Kirkgate was getting a new waiting room as part of it's renovation (or should that be resuscitation?) in which case a First Class lounge seems less out of place?

 

[yorksrob]

I thought Kirkgate was getting a new waiting room as part of it's renovation (or should that be resuscitation?) in which case a First Class lounge seems less out of place?

Maybe. The only business I've seen so far is a beauty salon/nailbar

Someone must have mis-read this forum a couple of years ago when I suggested it needed an ale bar
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They need some kind of USP. They haven't got one at present.

Apologies Starmill, what's a USP ?