Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[arb]

Also, these trains added last year are the ones that will now take about 10 (!) minutes longer to get to KGX from May, for no readily apparent reason. In the consultation timetable this wasn't the case, they were down to take the same 65-70 minutes as they do today.

On that note, for the xx:47 off-peak departures from Ely in the new timetable, National Rail Enquiries is offering quicker journey times by catching the xx:53 CrossCountry service instead, and then changing at Cambridge to pick the original Great Northern train there!

 

[higthomas]

Sorry, I haven't read the full thread, so the answer may be out there somewhere, but could someone tell me what the plan for the Hertford loop (in particular Enfield Chase) is come May and whether that is the final plan, or whether there is more to come. Thanks in advance.

 

[Verulamius]

The proposed May 2018 timetable for Great Northern is on the railplan2020.com website

https://www.railplan2020.com/-/medi...meslink-through-services-mondays-to.pdf?la=en

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Reported that the timetable will be somewhat knackered in the first week - not enough commissioned trains to run the Rainham to Luton services and also not enough crew for the Orpington to Core services. Expect some chaos!

 

[Failed Unit]

Reported that the timetable will be somewhat knackered in the first week - not enough commissioned trains to run the Rainham to Luton services and also not enough crew for the Orpington to Core services. Expect some chaos!

Surely the trains are easy to resolve. Use 365s on GN and send the 700s to rainham.

 

[higthomas]

The proposed May 2018 timetable for Great Northern is on the railplan2020.com website

https://www.railplan2020.com/-/medi...meslink-through-services-mondays-to.pdf?la=en

Thank you.
Are any available for weekends yet?
Also, it states an intention for 6tph, which isn't realized yet in May, being every 15 minutes. Anyone know whether that's planned in December 2018/19 of next May? And also what the planned final frequency is on Sundays?

 

[arb]

Whilst digging around the railplan2020.com site, and I found a link to the "Great Northern Mainline Route Information Sheet" https://www.railplan2020.com/-/medi...eets/route-info-sheet-2-gn-mainline.pdf?la=en

This states that from December 2019, there will be "Increase in off peak frequency between Ely and London Kings Cross doubling the frequency". Is that really what's planned? ELY-KGX has two trains per hour off-peak now, doubled last year from one per hour. Is it really going to be doubled again to four per hour? I've never seen that mentioned before in any previous discussions about all the various service changes. How will it be done? Surely it can't be two completely new services, can it? Are some of the Cambridge semi-fast/stoppers going to be extended to Ely? But if that was the case surely they'd be pushing the Thameslink angle and advertising Ely to St Pancras/Thameslink/Gatwick/Brighton/etc., rather than Ely to Kings Cross?

Or is this just a document that they haven't checked properly before publishing it?

 

[MikeWM]

On that note, for the xx:47 off-peak departures from Ely in the new timetable, National Rail Enquiries is offering quicker journey times by catching the xx:53 CrossCountry service instead, and then changing at Cambridge to pick the original Great Northern train there!

Yes, isn't that just superb? This timetable is a step backwards for Ely users and *wasn't what was in the consultation*, which makes me wonder what the point of the consultation was supposed to be.

Whilst digging around the railplan2020.com site, and I found a link to the "Great Northern Mainline Route Information Sheet" https://www.railplan2020.com/-/medi...eets/route-info-sheet-2-gn-mainline.pdf?la=en

This states that from December 2019, there will be "Increase in off peak frequency between Ely and London Kings Cross doubling the frequency". Is that really what's planned?

Even I think that would be excessive I'd settle for trains that take the same amount of time as now and those from/to Kings Lynn being lengthened.

I suppose they could confusingly be referring to Sunday, when we still have only one train an hour (poorly timetabled and, in mornings, dreadfully inadequate). Phase 1 of the consultation promised 2 per hour on Sunday between Ely and KGX, but as with pretty much everything else in the consultation referring to Ely they seem to have reneged on that.

 

[Failed Unit]

The consultation was a box ticking exercise so the could say the majority of passengers expressed no preference to the changes. (Because they asked the whole super franchise rather than just consider responses from the impacted areas)

The whole consultation has left a sour taste as they had already decided what they were doing.

Wait until oakleigh Park and New Southgate see the non consulted cutbacks in the peak service from 6 Tph down to 4.

 

[notverydeep]

The consultation was a box ticking exercise so the could say the majority of passengers expressed no preference to the changes. (Because they asked the whole super franchise rather than just consider responses from the impacted areas)

The whole consultation has left a sour taste as they had already decided what they were doing.

Wait until oakleigh Park and New Southgate see the non consulted cutbacks in the peak service from 6 Tph down to 4.

One thing that is clear to me is that the Finsbury Park to Welwyn Garden City slow lines are turned have had relatively simple stopping patterns turned into a complex mixture of odd patterns in order to allow the Cambridge Slows to stay off the fast lines across the whole section. This drives the need of the trains to skip Oakleigh Park and New Southgate at times and run non-stop from Welwyn to Potters Bar at other times. This is to get the trains to Alexandra Palace southbound or Welwyn Garden City northbound just in front of the following Cambridge Slow. There will be much passenger confusion, at least to start with. Thus there are oddities, such as a Cambridge Slow calling at Hatfield, being followed by a Moorgate train non-stopping Hatfield! To be fair, some of the most unusual stopping patterns are in the 'counter-peak' direction. The counter-peak direction does see quite a few services that are currently empty stock (and thus non-stop throughout), running as passenger services, hence some of this complexity.

Overall, just this one section, involving only two of the four tracks highlights how the timetable will be tight in so many areas and thus prone to unreliability and why run times for several flows are lengthened, but in frequency terms not that much has been added at peak times. It is frequency increases that passengers really respond to and drive passenger growth. Run time lengthening without frequency improvement will tend to suppress growth and adversely impact revenue.

 

[DaveN]

Reported that the timetable will be somewhat knackered in the first week - not enough commissioned trains to run the Rainham to Luton services and also not enough crew for the Orpington to Core services. Expect some chaos!

Ah. That's the translation of "

A completely new timetable will be rolled out over several weeks during May and June. This timetable will help with the planned improvements in metro and mainline services. More information will be available in the coming weeks"

which has appeared on https://www.railplan2020.com/ recently

 

[Failed Unit]

One thing that is clear to me is that the Finsbury Park to Welwyn Garden City slow lines are turned have had relatively simple stopping patterns turned into a complex mixture of odd patterns in order to allow the Cambridge Slows to stay off the fast lines across the whole section. This drives the need of the trains to skip Oakleigh Park and New Southgate at times and run non-stop from Welwyn to Potters Bar at other times. This is to get the trains to Alexandra Palace southbound or Welwyn Garden City northbound just in front of the following Cambridge Slow. There will be much passenger confusion, at least to start with. Thus there are oddities, such as a Cambridge Slow calling at Hatfield, being followed by a Moorgate train non-stopping Hatfield! To be fair, some of the most unusual stopping patterns are in the 'counter-peak' direction. The counter-peak direction does see quite a few services that are currently empty stock (and thus non-stop throughout), running as passenger services, hence some of this complexity.

Overall, just this one section, involving only two of the four tracks highlights how the timetable will be tight in so many areas and thus prone to unreliability and why run times for several flows are lengthened, but in frequency terms not that much has been added at peak times. It is frequency increases that passengers really respond to and drive passenger growth. Run time lengthening without frequency improvement will tend to suppress growth and adversely impact revenue.

GTR have definitely shafted us, will do all the normal things write to MP etc. Especially about if it is a commitment or an “pipe dream” to run direct services through the core on all routes consulted on.

I wonder if Oakliegh Park and New Southgate will get their trains back in 2019 when the Moorgate branch gains 2tph.

 

[swt_passenger]

Whilst digging around the railplan2020.com site, and I found a link to the "Great Northern Mainline Route Information Sheet" https://www.railplan2020.com/-/medi...eets/route-info-sheet-2-gn-mainline.pdf?la=en

This states that from December 2019, there will be "Increase in off peak frequency between Ely and London Kings Cross doubling the frequency". Is that really what's planned? ELY-KGX has two trains per hour off-peak now, doubled last year from one per hour. Is it really going to be doubled again to four per hour? I've never seen that mentioned before in any previous discussions about all the various service changes. How will it be done? Surely it can't be two completely new services, can it? Are some of the Cambridge semi-fast/stoppers going to be extended to Ely? But if that was the case surely they'd be pushing the Thameslink angle and advertising Ely to St Pancras/Thameslink/Gatwick/Brighton/etc., rather than Ely to Kings Cross?

Or is this just a document that they haven't checked properly before publishing it?

“Thameslink” doesn’t ever operate beyond Cambridge North as far as all recent info has shown. The second diagram on your linked fact sheet seems clear about this?

 

[arb]

“Thameslink” doesn’t ever operate beyond Cambridge North as far as all recent info has shown. The second diagram on your linked fact sheet seems clear about this?

Yes, indeed, that's what I thought. And the claim that the doubling in frequency will be for ELY-KGX, not Ely to a Thameslink station of your choice also agrees with that.

I was just trying to think of possible ways of doubling the Ely-London frequency to 4tph, under an assumption that Great Northern hadn't made a completely incorrect claim in their factsheet.

 

[sefton]

The consultation was a box ticking exercise so the could say the majority of passengers expressed no preference to the changes.

It was worse than that.

There were significant errors in the consultation spreadsheets which took several weeks of nagging before they deigned to correct them and even then there were still mistakes when the consultation closed.

 

[bramling]

One thing that is clear to me is that the Finsbury Park to Welwyn Garden City slow lines are turned have had relatively simple stopping patterns turned into a complex mixture of odd patterns in order to allow the Cambridge Slows to stay off the fast lines across the whole section. This drives the need of the trains to skip Oakleigh Park and New Southgate at times and run non-stop from Welwyn to Potters Bar at other times. This is to get the trains to Alexandra Palace southbound or Welwyn Garden City northbound just in front of the following Cambridge Slow. There will be much passenger confusion, at least to start with. Thus there are oddities, such as a Cambridge Slow calling at Hatfield, being followed by a Moorgate train non-stopping Hatfield! To be fair, some of the most unusual stopping patterns are in the 'counter-peak' direction. The counter-peak direction does see quite a few services that are currently empty stock (and thus non-stop throughout), running as passenger services, hence some of this complexity.

Overall, just this one section, involving only two of the four tracks highlights how the timetable will be tight in so many areas and thus prone to unreliability and why run times for several flows are lengthened, but in frequency terms not that much has been added at peak times. It is frequency increases that passengers really respond to and drive passenger growth. Run time lengthening without frequency improvement will tend to suppress growth and adversely impact revenue.

What makes me cringe with all of this is how a certain poster, who no longer posts on here, said the GN was "simple". I'm not sure if he was speaking for himself or whether this view pervades deeper into those responsible for designing and delivering Thameslink Programme, however your post sums up the fragility of RailPlan2020 or whatever silly name we have this week. It may all work on paper, but it's simply not going to work when disruption happens. Evidently the industry is starting to acknowledge this with the "phased" approach.

 

[radamfi]

Looks like the overnight trains are now in Realtime Trains.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Class 700 trains are running test runs along the NK line down to Rainham, one stopped at Erith briefly even though the signal was green, yet Thameslink will never stop there.

 

[ScotGG]

And bloody stupid that is too given the plans for new housing in Erith.

And the timetabled Thameslink service is slower from Abbey Wood to Dartford than existing southeastern all stoppers calling at Erith!

 

[danthekyle]

And bloody stupid that is too given the plans for new housing in Erith.

And the timetabled Thameslink service is slower from Abbey Wood to Dartford than existing southeastern all stoppers calling at Erith!

And it will be 8 carriages, so their explanation for not stopping isn't true, it can call there with no issues.

 

[NorthKent1989]

And bloody stupid that is too given the plans for new housing in Erith.

And the timetabled Thameslink service is slower from Abbey Wood to Dartford than existing southeastern all stoppers calling at Erith!

If the timetable at Erith is 6tph, every ten minutes, to two different London terminals, on two different lines
(CX via Lewisham 2tph, CS via Greenwich, 4tph) then its reasonable for Erith.

For those in Medway there's too many stops on the Thameslink service as it, the dwell times at each station makes everything slower.

The 8 car issue was for Woolwich Dockyard but yes Thameslink lied on that front too, not good at all.

 

[Barn]

Rumour here that the Medway service is getting delayed. Anybody heard anything similar?

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk...route-through-greenwich-and-woolwich-delayed/

 

[tsr]

And it will be 8 carriages, so their explanation for not stopping isn't true, it can call there with no issues.

Train length is irrelevant for the overwhelming majority of stations served by Thameslink. Class 700s are fully equipped with SDO and it is used every day.

 

[Barn]

https://www.railplan2020.com/improvements/thameslink-railplan2020

This page suggests that the timetable will now come in gradually over several weeks in May and June. Very odd way of doing things.

 

[Minstral25]

https://www.railplan2020.com/improvements/thameslink-railplan2020

This page suggests that the timetable will now come in gradually over several weeks in May and June. Very odd way of doing things.

Really - On day 1 all the trains have new starting positions, new stabling introduced, units to get back from warm store, possibly different lengths need to be programmed, Crew Depots are shifting, all diagrams are different. On a weekend when Network Rail are probably still doing works all over the place.

I'd suggest it would be almost impossible to make such major changes overnight and thus a gradual progression is probably sensible, as long as it is properly communicated to passengers beforehand.

 

[Steve Harris]

I'd suggest it would be almost impossible to make such major changes overnight and thus a gradual progression is probably sensible, as long as it is properly communicated to passengers beforehand.

We are talking about GTR here, so obviously it won't be.

I personally prefer one timetable change, that way i can plan my journey in full knowledge were my train is going and were it is stopping at. Rather than, week 1 its stopping at a,b,c and week 2 its stopping at c and d.

 

[Barn]

Really - On day 1 all the trains have new starting positions, new stabling introduced, units to get back from warm store, possibly different lengths need to be programmed, Crew Depots are shifting, all diagrams are different. On a weekend when Network Rail are probably still doing works all over the place.

I'd suggest it would be almost impossible to make such major changes overnight and thus a gradual progression is probably sensible, as long as it is properly communicated to passengers beforehand.

Not when the TOCs you're sharing tracks with are themselves doing a big bang change!

 

[Hadders]

GTR also need to consider the effects of this on passengers travelling further afield. We already have the situation with the preview service being timed to arrive at St Pancras a minute or two later than the non preview train arrived at Kings Cross. This could cause a passenger difficulties with the minimum connection times when crossing London.

GTR still remain silent on the issue of fares....

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Rumour here that the Medway service is getting delayed. Anybody heard anything similar?

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk...route-through-greenwich-and-woolwich-delayed/

Yes. This is true. Southeastern have been well and truly shat on and asked to cover for both shortages on the Catford Loop (not enough crew for the 4tph) and also on the Rainham service (not enough stock).

In short, DfT are saying SE need to resource trains between Gravesend and Gillingham at least (but they've planned all their stock round 12 car operation on the North Kent Metro); and that they may need to stop some services non-stop round the Catford Loop at stations to relieve capacity.

The other problem is the timetable works off 2 of 4 trains down the Chatham Main terminating at Bromley South and not going down to Orpington (should have been Thameslink) so less 465 units needed overall out of Victoria.

So, yes, there could be some real trouble on the line in May for at least the first 2-4 weeks. Not that the Thameslink management are prepared to admit it...

 

[Barn]

But are we talking a month or so rather than (say) until December's timetable change?