Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[Ianno87]

Because it's a reduction in capacity and frequency to London

No it isn't. In the high peak, when capacity is most in demand (arriving London Bridge or Blackfriars 0800-0859, when demand is highest) from Brighton is:

One service from Brighton to London Bridge
Two services from Brighton via Blackfriars/Thameslink.

So May 2018 high peak service level Brighton-London will be exactly the same as today...

Rest of the day, I've never even come close to strughling to sit down on the 4tph service. Nobody loses frequency *to a particular place in London* (few people just travel to "London" generically, London Bridge, Victoria and Thameslink are distinct markets) - in fact everybody gains (except for peak travellers, who stay the same), and there is easily sufficient capacity for off peak passengers with 3tph (all 12-car), which will only be for 6 months anyway until 4tph comes in.

And all core-bound journey times get faster too.

Yes it is a reduction of 1tph in total service to "London" *off-peak*. But a difference very few passengers will actually notice or care about or have any demonstrable impact on their journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be very useful when something is a few minutes late coming from the Peterborough direction. You talk about the Cambridge trains sweeping round the corner at 40 mph and then 70 mph, but spare a thought for the few-minutes-late Peterborough train which may well be being held at signals to allow the Cambridge train to get a clear run - the Peterborough train that will then be getting later and later and will be missing its path everywhere.

Nowadays it's *very* common for something ex Peterborough to be held for a fast Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn train which is still as far back as Letchworth. If the layout was different then there's more scope for the Peterborough train to be brought into Hitchin platform and onwards on the US, whilst the fast Cambridge train can immediately get full unrestrictive signal aspects onto the UF, without losing any time. This scenario crops up several times per day on a typical day. The crossover in question may well need relaying to increase speed, however surely this shouldn't be too much of a problem? I'm not convinced there would need to be approach control, as the line speed is already low for the curve into Hitchin.

Another omission is failure to provide a faster crossing from the UF to US1 approaching Finsbury Park. Considering this move is now rather more common than in times past, it's surprising a flashing yellow wasn't provided.

Just to add to ianno87’s quite correct analysis of the situation:

The crossover is currently 15mph, on an 80mph stretch of line, and is bang up against the neutral section that separates the ECML from the branch. I’m not quite sure where the signal in rear is. However, at 15mph requires approach control from red, ie trains to be brought almost to a stand at the signal in rear, before then proceeding at 15mph through the crossover. This would take at least as long as waiting for a train calling at Hitchin.

Alternatively, make the crossover 70mph to avoid approach control. This would, I suspect, push it back a signal, meaning you would need interlocking changes (actually, you will need them anyway*) another signal and OLE changes. Easily a £5m job. (Just renewing a 70mph crossover is £2m).

Or, keep the existing crossover, and reduce the linespeed for everything to 25mph. Doesn’t seem the right thing to do.

* because the existing crossovers are a groundframe, it would need a reasonably significant change to the interlocking to get them to be signalled and to create a route UC-DC-UF through the switch diamonds.

 

[bramling]

Just to add to ianno87’s quite correct analysis of the situation:

The crossover is currently 15mph, on an 80mph stretch of line, and is bang up against the neutral section that separates the ECML from the branch. I’m not quite sure where the signal in rear is. However, at 15mph requires approach control from red, ie trains to be brought almost to a stand at the signal in rear, before then proceeding at 15mph through the crossover. This would take at least as long as waiting for a train calling at Hitchin.

Alternatively, make the crossover 70mph to avoid approach control. This would, I suspect, push it back a signal, meaning you would need interlocking changes (actually, you will need them anyway*) another signal and OLE changes. Easily a £5m job. (Just renewing a 70mph crossover is £2m).

Or, keep the existing crossover, and reduce the linespeed for everything to 25mph. Doesn’t seem the right thing to do.

* because the existing crossovers are a groundframe, it would need a reasonably significant change to the interlocking to get them to be signalled and to create a route UC-DC-UF through the switch diamonds.

Would it be viable to replace with, say, a 40 mph crossover, and move the existing 40 mph PSR to start a little closer to Letchworth? On the basis that there's clearly no need for a 70 mph crossover as no train will be doing anywhere near that speed.

 

[USBT]

Gatwick goes from 4tph to London Brige and 4tph to the Thameslink core to 5tph to London Bridge and 5tph to the Thameslink core. And faster to the core.

Actually it goes to 7tph to both LBG and the core. 2tph “fast” Bedfords, 1tph Cambridge (both via the Quarry line), 2tph Peterborough and 2tph “slow” Bedfords (via Redhill). Though the “slow” Bedfords get overtaken by a fast making it 5tph for practical purposes.

Note I’m using the term “fast” and “slow” Bedfords solely for the journey between GTW and LBG.

 

[clockend]

A few gaps, notably between 07:00 and 08:00 at Gordon Hill in up direction. Two less services I think, which can’t be right. Though pre-06:30 has an increase. Also pretty much every train is all stations on the Hertford Loop up in am peak (spotted one that uses SL2) and most down in pm peak compared to now.

 

[MML]

I don't see the point of the 2 tph Bedford 'slows' via Redhill.
They depart within 2 minutes of the 'fast' one-stop East Croydon and arrive at Blackfriars 20 minutes later.
Unless you are joining at intermediate stations, why would anybody use them ?

Pity they couldn't use those paths to provide a 15 minute interval service from GTW to LBG. I'm sure that used to be the case.

 

[Minstral25]

The two Bedford slows via Redhill have nothing to do with Gatwick. They are to serve the intermediate stations and in peak will be full to capacity as the route is extremely busy - Gatwick is just to turn them round. This timetable restores the Redhill Route to 4tph to London Bridge as it had in 2015 although the fast trains from 2015 are missing. Along with Southern slowing the Victoria service from 28 to 39 minutes. Overall Redhill Route has kept capacity at the cost of much slower services.

Rumour has it that when [if] the 3rd 12-coach platform at Reigate is built the Bedford's will terminate there instead of Gatwick.

 

[IKB]

I don't see the point of the 2 tph Bedford 'slows' via Redhill.
They depart within 2 minutes of the 'fast' one-stop East Croydon and arrive at Blackfriars 20 minutes later.
Unless you are joining at intermediate stations, why would anybody use them ?

Pity they couldn't use those paths to provide a 15 minute interval service from GTW to LBG. I'm sure that used to be the case.

Because not everyone who wants to go to London lives in Redhill ? It's not the centre of the universe!

 

[Minstral25]

Because not everyone who wants to go to London lives in Redhill ? It's not the centre of the universe!

No but almost 10 million journeys a year from the Redhill Route mean it does need some trains to call and starting them from Gatwick is fine!

[Although strictly it really is the centre of the universe as the New York Times has written about our McDonalds]

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it be viable to replace with, say, a 40 mph crossover, and move the existing 40 mph PSR to start a little closer to Letchworth? On the basis that there's clearly no need for a 70 mph crossover as no train will be doing anywhere near that speed.

No. It would cost almost as much (same interlocking changes), and would extend the 40mph by around 200m. Every train from Cambridge would lose around 6 seconds. Not much, but enough to have an effect on punctuality, and I suspect rather more than would be gained from having the facility.

 

[700007]

Is there scope for a night service on part of the GN side sort of like on the Bedfords to start at a future timetable change? I've been thinking all morning and I reckon it could be viable and generate a good passenger demand, even if its on weekend nights like the Night Tube.

For example an hourly service from:
- London Bridge or East Croydon to Gordon Hill via Finsbury Park, calling at:
(from St Pancras), Finsbury Park, Harringay, Hornsey, Alexandra Palace, Bowes Park, Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield Chase and Gordon Hill.

- Gatwick Airport to Letchworth Garden City, calling at:
(from St Pancras), Finsbury Park, New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin and Letchworth Garden City. When late night events are on [at Ally Pally], trains make an additional stop [there].

 

[Hadders]

I'd say there's scope to run to Cambridge and possible Peterborough.

The last northbound service from Kings Cross is currently 0134 and the first one is at 0506 to Hertford and 0522 to Peterborough. There's also a staff train to Letchworth that departs KGX at 0414.

In reality an hourly service could be operated by running two additional services leaving KGX at around 0230 and 0330. Make the staff train a full service train and job done.

 

[TimG]

No it isn't. In the high peak, when capacity is most in demand (arriving London Bridge or Blackfriars 0800-0859, when demand is highest) from Brighton is:

One service from Brighton to London Bridge
Two services from Brighton via Blackfriars/Thameslink.

So May 2018 high peak service level Brighton-London will be exactly the same as today...

Rest of the day, I've never even come close to strughling to sit down on the 4tph service. Nobody loses frequency *to a particular place in London* (few people just travel to "London" generically, London Bridge, Victoria and Thameslink are distinct markets) - in fact everybody gains (except for peak travellers, who stay the same), and there is easily sufficient capacity for off peak passengers with 3tph (all 12-car), which will only be for 6 months anyway until 4tph comes in.

And all core-bound journey times get faster too.

Yes it is a reduction of 1tph in total service to "London" *off-peak*. But a difference very few passengers will actually notice or care about or have any demonstrable impact on their journey.

You say it it isn't and then list out some facts that show that it is, but doesn't matter. Not sure this is true of sunny days in summer or weekdays southbound from 4 to 5 and after 630..

 

[wipeout]

Still gaps in the GN stopping timetable. Currently only 1 service departing Oakleigh Park/New Southgate between 7 and 8 am, and that's at 7:01/7:04 to Moorgate. No other Moorgate or Kings Cross services showing. Currently there are 5 trains between 7 and 8 am.

Not much better between 8 and 9 am with 2 services showing instead of the current 6.

 

[SVG2076]

As a regular user for Stevenage-Cambridge, mainly during non-peak times, including Sundays, I am very disappointed with the proposed changes in May. The additional TL service does not spread out, resulting 27 (slow), 54 (semi-fast), 57 (slow) pattern from Cambridge and 03 (semi-fast), 08 (slow), 38 (slow) pattern from Stevenage. Therefore there is nearly no service improvement. However, on Sunday, is there certain that only one stopping service remains? Hourly service is unacceptable. There is currently a semi-fast and a slow service. Also, from Cambridge to London or vice versa, there are only 2 tph to KGX, and the slow service will be overtaken by the fast service, resulting 1 tph realistically.

 

[notverydeep]

Another poster - JamieP has posted a pdf of the GN Mainline May Timetable (Monday to Fridays) to the class 365 storage thread on the rolling stock board - this is the link: https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/may-2018-gn-monday-to-friday-mainline-pdf.44057/ . It shows booked rolling stock type, but covers only the 'mainline' services and not the Metro services (that is Moorgates and King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City Semi fasts).

Thanks JamieP - I would have quoted this directly, but I am not sure how to quote one thread on another. If you have the metro timetable that would be much appreciated on this thread I suspect...

One consequence of this timetable appears to be the loss of the long standing last train at Welwyn Garden City (the 01:35 King's Cross to Peterborough) and the scheduling of a through service from Thameslink (though not in the peaks) a 12 car train no less, to stop at WGC - the 00:46 from St. Pancras calling at 01:13...

The message I get from the timetable is clear though. Move to Ashwell & Morden!

 

[bramling]

Another poster - JamieP has posted a pdf of the GN Mainline May Timetable (Monday to Fridays) to the class 365 storage thread on the rolling stock board - this is the link: https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/may-2018-gn-monday-to-friday-mainline-pdf.44057/ . It shows booked rolling stock type, but covers only the 'mainline' services and not the Metro services (that is Moorgates and King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City Semi fasts).

Thanks JamieP - I would have quoted this directly, but I am not sure how to quote one thread on another. If you have the metro timetable that would be much appreciated on this thread I suspect...

One consequence of this timetable appears to be the loss of the long standing last train at Welwyn Garden City (the 01:35 King's Cross to Peterborough) and the scheduling of a through service from Thameslink (though not in the peaks) a 12 car train no less, to stop at WGC - the 00:46 from St. Pancras calling at 01:13...

The message I get from the timetable is clear though. Move to Ashwell & Morden!

I wonder if the 20:54 and 21:54 from KX will be a permanent feature, or whether they're just temporary until Brighton-Cambridge goes 2tph (if it ever does)? I can see these services being rather popular for people who dislike the Thameslink experience.

 

[jon0844]

One consequence of this timetable appears to be the loss of the long standing last train at Welwyn Garden City (the 01:35 King's Cross to Peterborough) and the scheduling of a through service from Thameslink (though not in the peaks) a 12 car train no less, to stop at WGC - the 00:46 from St. Pancras calling at 01:13...

Seems to be because it's a 700/1 - 12 coaches - which rules out those stations (I guess they won't use SDO). But the 0046 from STP is also down as 12 coaches...?

I was told there are some 600 errors to be resolved, so hope these are just glitches. I'd hate to lose the 0135 train to Hatfield.

 

[MikeWM]

If the above posted timetable is accurate, it makes even more miserable reading for Fen line users, to go with the continued lack of any progress whatever in 8-car trains North of Ely and the Ely North project...

- The last train from London to north of Cambridge leaves earlier than currently!!! I don’t have the draft timetable anymore, but I think I recall that had the 2342 going through to Kings Lynn. What happened?

- The last train from north of Cambridge to London now requires a change at Cambridge (!?!)

- Also, Ely loses a morning shoulder-peak train - currently it has departures for Kings Cross at 0928, 0949, 1007 and 1025, it loses one of these in this new timetable.

Combine with no changes planned for Sunday services - urgently needed - either 8-car trains, more trains, or at the very least a timetable recast - and I’m afraid to say that the attitude shown to Fen Line customers by GN is both concerning and pretty appalling.

 

[Class 170101]

The last train from London to Kings Lynn leaves at 23:14 today from May its 23:12! This applies all week. There is no 23:42 to Kings Lynn either now in May.

 

[Hadders]

I've done a quick analysis of morning peak trains between Stevenage and London (I have excluded the Moorgate trains):

Currently:
0600-0659 there are 7 trains with a total of 52 carriages
0700-0759 there are 8 trains with total of 74 carriages
0800-0859 there are 7 trains with a total of 60 carriages
Total 22 trains with a total of 186 carriages

From May:
0600-0659 there are 6 trains with a total of 62 carriages
0700-0759 there are 7 trains with a total of 72 carriages
0800-0859 there are 7 trains with a total of 68 carriages
Total 20 trains with a total of 202 carriages

NB. the first off peak train is currently at 0937. I see that in the new time there are 'fast' departures at 0930 and 0937 with a 'slow' at 0940 (that gets overtaken by both the 0930 and 0947). I wonder what the first off peak service will be? It really should be 0930, the 0940 is only 8 cars and will be swamped if not (as most normals won't wait for the 0947 that overtakes it)

So fewer trains overall (I though the main selling point of the Thameslink Programme was more trains)
More carriages overall although these carriages have fewer seats than the trains they replace
Fewer trains and fewer carriages in the critical hour between 0700 and 0800.

It makes me wonder why we've bothered with the Thameslink programme. Why not use the existing timetable and lengthen all services to 8 or 12 cars which would've been a fraction of the cost.

 

[Fred26]

The first off-peak train will be whichever one gets into KGX/STP 1000 or after first.

 

[Hadders]

The first off-peak train will be whichever one gets into KGX/STP 1000 or after first.

The 0930 arrives at 0959 (12-car)
The 0940 arrives at 1025 (8-car)
The 0947 arrives at 1014 (12 car)

The first off peak departure from Stevenage using your methodology is therefore 0940. Many 'normals' will get the first train even though it gets overtaken. In reality it'll get swamped potentially preventing passengers boarding at stations further down the line.

Currently the 0937 arrives at 1006. Some common sense needs to prevail.

 

[Fred26]

It's not 'my methodology' - off-peak starts at 1000 in London.
In this scenario I'd suggest the most likely first off-peak will be the 0940. I also know from experience that most 'normals' will let the slow train leave unless told to board it.
If you go to Stevenage or Hitchin with the current timetable at a time when the slow train overtakes the fast, you watch how most people let the slow leave. That is, of course unless the fast is much further back or they are instructed to board the first train.

 

[Hadders]

It's not 'my methodology' - off-peak starts at 1000 in London.
In this scenario I'd suggest the most likely first off-peak will be the 0940. I also know from experience that most 'normals' will let the slow train leave unless told to board it.
If you go to Stevenage or Hitchin with the current timetable at a time when the slow train overtakes the fast, you watch how most people let the slow leave. That is, of course unless the fast is much further back or they are instructed to board the first train.

In the current timetable the fasts don't overtake the slows - can you give an example of where they do.

The fasts leave at xx06/xx36
The slows at xx11/xx41 (give or take a minute)

 

[MikeWM]

The last train from London to Kings Lynn leaves at 23:14 today from May its 23:12! This applies all week. There is no 23:42 to Kings Lynn either now in May.

Yes, that’s earlier than now. Not by much, but still earlier. Not exactly an improvement, is it? This is a well-used train, I often get it as far as Ely. I’m quite sure there is demand for something later.

Does anyone still have the proposed timetable and can confirm/refute my recollection that the 2342 was supposed to go to KLN?

 

[MikeWM]

Another thing I’ve now noticed - the xx58 off-peak Ely to Kings Cross are moved back to xx47. Yet they only arrive in London 1 or 2 minutes earlier than now. So GN are going to add 10 minutes padding to a journey that currently takes 65-70 minutes!

What an improved timetable this is to look forward to!

I noted a GN poster up at Ely this evening claiming ‘more capacity and more carriages’. Err, no, for Ely, neither. Rather the same capacity (or actually even less in the 0930-1030 period), slower and less convenient trains. Wonderful.

 

[Fred26]

In the current timetable the fasts don't overtake the slows - can you give an example of where they do.

The fasts leave at xx06/xx36
The slows at xx11/xx41 (give or take a minute)

Disruption.

 

[arb]

Another thing I’ve now noticed - the xx58 off-peak Ely to Kings Cross are moved back to xx47.

I don't know how peak/off-peak from Ely to London is defined, but if that doesn't change then this retiming means that the first off-peak of the day from Ely to Cambridge, which is currently the 08:58, will become the 09:17 instead of the 08:47. So people who commute off-peak Ely-Cambridge, of whom there are many on the 08:58 (I only use it occasionally but often enough to recognise some of the regulars) will either have a big fare rise, or will have to arrive at work 20 minutes later.

If they adjust the peak/off-peak time boundary to make the newly retimed 08:47 remain off-peak, then that pulls the 08:52 CrossCountry departure from peak into off-peak as well.

 

[MikeWM]

Does anyone still have the proposed timetable and can confirm/refute my recollection that the 2342 was supposed to go to KLN?

Ok, I've found it - FLUA still have a copy.

Just as I remembered, 2342 from KGX through to KLN.

So why has this changed?