Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[Peter Sarf]

Will Southeastern railway really need any more 377 from Southern as Southern hasn't had any stock replacement from losing the 455s 46 of them and the 313s 19 of them. I understand totally about they have come to the end of their life expectancies but not replacing them is really bad.

I know what you mean but I think service levels are not what they were pre Covid. Furthermore South Easterns 465s and 466s are getting long in the tooth.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Also. Southeastern railway has had more rolling stock than hot dinners. 377/5s 23 of them 28 707s city beams and they still have 36 376s and still have a lot of 375s and 395 javelin trains. In the future Southeastern railway will the last 2 707s from Southwestern railway.

 

[Doomotron]

Also. Southeastern railway has had more rolling stock than hot dinners. 377/5s 23 of them 28 707s city beams and they still have 36 376s and still have a lot of 375s and 395 javelin trains. In the future Southeastern railway will the last 2 707s from Southwestern railway.

However, they've already lost a substantial number of Networkers and are set to lose more.

 

[brad465]

That is two or three class 379s for each daily diagram. So, as I said, there will be a few more units floating around at Hornsey. But there will not need to be all 30 387s held back until all the 379s are in service.

Are Great Northern having a one in one out move? I thought there was a plan for a net gain on the GN side, with the number of 387s moving less than 30.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Also. Southeastern railway has had more rolling stock than hot dinners. 377/5s 23 of them 28 707s city beams and they still have 36 376s and still have a lot of 375s and 395 javelin trains. In the future Southeastern railway will the last 2 707s from Southwestern railway.

Its a lot of 465s and 466s though. And I think I heard some of the 377/5s are only loaned.

But this is really getting off topic for this Great Northern thread.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I created a discussion thread discussing this issue. It is in the speculative discussion.

Who needs the additional rolling stock more? Southern or Southeastern Railway.​

Its a lot of 465s and 466s though. And I think I heard some of the 377/5s are only loaned.

But this is really getting off topic for this Great Northern thread.

You are right about that.

 

[D365]

Based on the fact Porterbrook (who now owns the 379s and also owns the existing GN 387s iirc) has already taken a 387 unit in for First-in-class testing to fit ETCS then I assume it will be very similar to fit to a 379.

Assumptions are dangerous, but I expect the Alstom design engineers will know what they are doing. Validation surveys and the like.

 

[Snow1964]

Are Great Northern having a one in one out move? I thought there was a plan for a net gain on the GN side, with the number of 387s moving less than 30.

Yes will probably be something like 7-10 379s arrive
then one in, one 387 out

I can't find the reference to the quantities, but sure it was something like 30 379s in, and approx 22 387s moving out. Although exact numbers and diagrams might be tweaked, so original plan gets tweaked anyway.

 

[Magdalia]

I have experienced 3 major EMU rolling stock transitions on the GN, class 312 to class 317, class 317 to class 365 and class 365 to class 387.

Before any class 379s run in service there will need to be acceptance testing (x miles of fault free running for each unit) and driver training.

The class 365 to class 387 transition is not a good precedent for class 387 to class 379. The class 387s came over from Brighton in dribs and drabs, as they were replaced by class 700s on Thameslink, and they were introduced in dribs and drabs replacing class 317/321, which mostly worked simple peak only diagrams. There was then a "big bang" change from class 365 to class 387 on the Fen line services at the summer 2017 timetable change. This was necessary because of the large amount of splitting and joining then being done at Cambridge. The reduced proportion of peak only working and the reduction in the amount of splitting and joining make this approach unsuitable now.

I expect the class 379 to class 387 transition to be much more like class 312 to class 317 and class 317 to class 365 transitions. In both these cases the unit diagrams were split into 3 roughly equally sized blocks, which, for ease of description, I'll call A, B and C. The transition then happened in three stages.

• when enough new units and drivers are available for a third of the service, block A goes over to the new units
• when enough new units and drivers are available for two thirds of the service, blocks B and C go over to the new units, but block A goes back to the old units
• when enough units are available for the full service, block A goes over to the new units for the second time.

For ease of operation it is better if block A does not include the diagrams requiring splitting and joining.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Also. Southeastern railway has had more rolling stock than hot dinners. 377/5s 23 of them 28 707s city beams and they still have 36 376s and still have a lot of 375s and 395 javelin trains. In the future Southeastern railway will the last 2 707s from Southwestern railway.

They do extremely well though in being able to diagram and roster such a variety of stock such that the service is delivered pretty effectively even when a work to rule is in force.

 

[xxjcz]

Anybody know why there are always 2 700/0’s in nene sidings almost all day everyday, where have they become spare from? Will they be working the 2 new peak PBO services from June?

i do hope the ex-GWR387s stay with GN and they send down the 387s with southern interiors

 

[class717]

When did you notice that being a regular occurrence? I remember a lot was done to reduce the 700/0s mileages in either the May or Dec 23 timetable change.

 

[Robski_]

Another one coming on Tuesday?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K05515/2024-04-30/detailed

 

[03_179]

Should be two all being well

 

[xxjcz]

When did you notice that being a regular occurrence? I remember a lot was done to reduce the 700/0s mileages in either the May or Dec 23 timetable change.

If you look here you can see 2 700/0s in the nene carriage sidings, they don’t seem to have any diagrams out of there either

 

[class717]

It was the May 2023 timetable change when the number of 700/0 diagrams on GN went from 8 to 4.

May 2023 changes

For those interested, here are the weekday GN 700 diagrams from May. 700/0 5C04 0600 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS 2C04 0627 London King's Cross – Cambridge 2C17 0826 Cambridge – London King's Cross 1T20 1010 London King's Cross – Ely 1T27 1153 Ely – London King's Cross 2C32 1327...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[bramling]

If you look here you can see 2 700/0s in the nene carriage sidings, they don’t seem to have any diagrams out of there either

There is one, goes in on the last ex Horsham, and comes out again on one of the morning fasts. If a unit is there during the day the presumably it gets there by way of the above, so it could be the case that the one that goes in off the Horsham stables for the following day, and then comes out the day after.

Albeit rather wasteful of a quite expensive asset, though it would provide a spare unit for Peterborough-Horsham should any 700/1s be unavailable or go defective.

 

[Magdalia]

Anybody know why there are always 2 700/0’s in nene sidings almost all day everyday, where have they become spare from? Will they be working the 2 new peak PBO services from June?

Two video clips are not the same as "almost all day every day".

There is one, goes in on the last ex Horsham, and comes out again on one of the morning fasts.

Unless things have changed, the class 700/0 off 1712 Kings Cross-Peterborough works 1955 to Horsham and 2311 back before going onto Nene sidings. Next morning it works 0605 to Kings Cross.

The unit off 1812 from Kings Cross also goes onto Nene sidings and appears to work 0654 to Horsham next morning, but I think this is a class 700/1?

Is it possible that the video clips were recorded on days when the two units were spare on Nene sidings because of industrial action or engineering work? In such circumstances it is possible that the class 700/1 diagram could have been covered by a class 700/0.

 

[xxjcz]

Two video clips are not the same as "almost all day every day".

Unless things have changed, the class 700/0 off 1712 Kings Cross-Peterborough works 1955 to Horsham and 2311 back before going onto Nene sidings. Next morning it works 0605 to Kings Cross.

The unit off 1812 from Kings Cross also goes onto Nene sidings and appears to work 0654 to Horsham next morning, but I think this is a class 700/1?

Is it possible that the video clips were recorded on days when the two units were spare on Nene sidings because of industrial action or engineering work? In such circumstances it is possible that the class 700/1 diagram could have been covered by a class 700/0.

There was also 1 700/0 in nene when 4L77 passed at midday yesterday or the day before, I tried to trace it but couldn’t

 

[Magdalia]

There was also 1 700/0 in nene when 4L77 passed at midday yesterday or the day before, I tried to trace it but couldn’t

On Sunday 21/04 Real Time Trains shows unit off 1115 Peterborough-Kings Cross running empty to Nene sidings instead of Hornsey. That may have temporarily given Nene sidings a spare.

 

[xxjcz]

On Sunday 21/04 Real Time Trains shows unit off 1115 Peterborough-Kings Cross running empty to Nene sidings instead of Hornsey. That may have temporarily given Nene sidings a spare.

Ah right, thanks for the clarification

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It was the May 2023 timetable change when the number of 700/0 diagrams on GN went from 8 to 4.

May 2023 changes

For those interested, here are the weekday GN 700 diagrams from May. 700/0 5C04 0600 Hornsey Depot – London King's Cross ECS 2C04 0627 London King's Cross – Cambridge 2C17 0826 Cambridge – London King's Cross 1T20 1010 London King's Cross – Ely 1T27 1153 Ely – London King's Cross 2C32 1327...

www.railforums.co.uk

And are those spare 4 now used by Thameslink or is that 4 units that GN should take back to release an additional 4 x 387's to Southern.

 

[Fincra5]

They need a bit of a clean up inside and out....

 

[bramling]

And are those spare 4 now used by Thameslink or is that 4 units that GN should take back to release an additional 4 x 387's to Southern.

They seem to be acting as spares cover for unavailable 700/0 and 700/1 units. What we’re not seeing now is regular instances of “cancelled due to fault with the train”.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They seem to be acting as spares cover for unavailable 700/0 and 700/1 units. What we’re not seeing now is regular instances of “cancelled due to fault with the train”.

One hot standby at Hornsey, Three Bridges and Cricklewood should be more than sufficient and presumably already built into the diagrams without need more expensive units lying idle. Its about time the companies providing these trains were held to account to deliver on their contracts on train availability.

 

[43096]

Its about time the companies providing these trains were held to account to deliver on their contracts on train availability.

How do you know they aren't? There may well be penalties for non-delivery in the contract.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Here is an idea. When the Thameslink 700s are running on Great Northern routes. They could paint outside the 700-livery Thameslink and Great Northern.

 

[387gwr]

Great Northern has quite the mix of liveries, Thameslink striped and light blue doors on the 717, ex c2c 387/3 with dark blue doors, 387/1 with southern green doors, ex gwr 387/1 and possibly the 379 withe the current grey doors. I wonder if they would ever get a uniform livery.

 

[185143]

Great Northern has quite the mix of liveries, Thameslink striped and light blue doors on the 717, ex c2c 387/3 with dark blue doors, 387/1 with southern green doors, ex gwr 387/1 and possibly the 379 withe the current grey doors. I wonder if they would ever get a uniform livery.

They could just standardise the lot and call it, I don't know, GTR?

 

[387gwr]

They could just standardise the lot and call it, I don't know, GTR?

I wonder what they would do hopefully, smth more interesting than GN/Thameslink liveries.