Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[Trainbike46]

I might have missed it, but why not transfer the displaced 387 units straight to SouthEastern and leave the 377 with Southern.

GTR uses the 387 on both sides of the river already, and Southeastern already has 377s so it would require less training, and mean less different types of units for SE

 

[Cowley]

This:

“Great Northern Fleet Tender”​

being the thread title. Can we get back onto that topic please.
Thanks

 

[warwickshire]

To be honest it was obvious the 379s was going to Great Northern anyway, had it not been for covid, then around May 2022 to December 2022, would have seen them in service, and the 365s would have survived around a year longer.
However when finished from Anglia due to 720 replacement, 379s always was, intended to be Gtrs anyway. Its just Covid and bad Dft, management have delayed them in moving over.. Either way 379s on Gtr was always going to happen.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed the future was pretty obvious, but I also think there was a Mexican standoff over the leasing cost that contributed to much of the wait.

Yes, GTR wanted the trains but Covid and lower usage meant GTR/DfT could play hardball in negotiations.

 

[bramling]

To be honest it was obvious the 379s was going to Great Northern anyway, had it not been for covid, then around May 2022 to December 2022, would have seen them in service, and the 365s would have survived around a year longer.
However when finished from Anglia due to 720 replacement, 379s always was, intended to be Gtrs anyway. Its just Covid and bad Dft, management have delayed them in moving over.. Either way 379s on Gtr was always going to happen.

One does wonder what might have happened had the 365 and 379 fleets both been on the table at the same time. Either the existence of the 365s might have been used to drive down the eventual cost of the 379s, or a killer bid from the 365s owner.

 

[hwl]

Indeed the future was pretty obvious, but I also think there was a Mexican standoff over the leasing cost that contributed to much of the wait.

Yes, GTR wanted the trains but Covid and lower usage meant GTR/DfT could play hardball in negotiations.

There was always going to be a "price discovery moment" as the existing 379 charges were too high.

Macquarie (379 second owners) exiting the European ROSCO market and Akiem buying everything including the stuff that wasn't good fit (inc. 379s) delayed that as did Covid. (Akiem probably got a suitable going off lease discount on the sale price which delayed the prioce discovery moment for longer than it might originally have taken).

The other key element was that Macquarie and Akiem weren't resourced staffing wise to support 379s long term through refurbishment and upgrades over their life span so they were going to have to sell or resource up to retain at some point. (Some of the other newer ROSCOS will face similar issues in the future with other fleets).

One does wonder what might have happened had the 365 and 379 fleets both been on the table at the same time. Either the existence of the 365s might have been used to drive down the eventual cost of the 379s, or a killer bid from the 365s owner.

I would be surprised if 350/2 weren't also used for competition (by both DfT and PB) although they would take longer to be delivered.

 

[Mikey C]

The other key element was that Macquarie and Akiem weren't resourced staffing wise to support 379s long term through refurbishment and upgrades over their life span so they were going to have to sell or resource up to retain at some point. (Some of the other newer ROSCOS will face similar issues in the future with other fleets).

Indeed many are just financing houses. Not every initiative has come off, but at least Porterbrook have been pretty proactive in managing and attempting to upgrade their fleet

 

[collosus]

Have their been any class 379s moved to Hornsey depot

Interesting, I believe it's been stated here before that Axiem wanted to dispose of them so it makes sense.

 

[JonathanH]

Have their been any class 379s moved to Hornsey depot

No

One does wonder what might have happened had the 365 and 379 fleets both been on the table at the same time. Either the existence of the 365s might have been used to drive down the eventual cost of the 379s, or a killer bid from the 365s owner.

If things had panned out as expected prior to 2020, it seems likely there would have been scope for both 365s and 379s at Great Northern, with all of the 387s displacing 455s at Southern.

 

[03_179]

365s always going to go. No Air Con one of the reasons.

 

[Mikey C]

365s always going to go. No Air Con one of the reasons.

Air Con/cooling could have been retrofitted (as with the Chiltern/GWR 165s) if it was the only reason

 

[03_179]

Not according to the Engineers I worked with at the time.

376s can have it retro fitted

 

[Magdalia]

Air Con/cooling could have been retrofitted (as with the Chiltern/GWR 165s) if it was the only reason

Air con was not the only reason. Most important was lack of selective door opening (SDO).

 

[Royston Vasey]

Air con was not the only reason. Most important was lack of selective door opening (SDO).

Yes the interworking of all day 8 car diagrams (mostly 387 with few 700, thankfully) between Kings Lynn and now hourly Cambridge stoppers has completely changed the diagrams and they couldn't have done that with 365s. You could probably extend the up Foxton platform and the up Meldreth platform to 8, but not the Meldreth down platform, or the up Shepreth platform without moving the station completely or bulldozing the tremendous bat house of Shepreth Wildlife Park.

As a villager I'm happy with the comfort and ambience of the 387s but having been a regular from Whittlesford as well, I'm looking forward to the 379s (assuming we don't get the 700s back again!)

 

[jon0844]

Don't forget the lack of bodyside cameras for DOO, and presumably the cost of fitting ETCS equipment.

Of course perhaps they could have been cascaded somewhere else, but they were life expired here.

 

[Fincra5]

Don't forget the lack of bodyside cameras for DOO, and presumably the cost of fitting ETCS equipment.

Of course perhaps they could have been cascaded somewhere else, but they were life expired here.

Didn't they take a 365 to explore ETCS fitment and it eas ruled out pretty quickly....

 

[D365]

Didn't they take a 365 to explore ETCS fitment and it eas ruled out pretty quickly....

365525 reportedly made it as far as FiC (First in Class)!

 

[Millercool21]

Will GTR be upgrading the units to 110mph?

 

[JonathanH]

Will GTR be upgrading the units to 110mph?

They don't need to. The current 387s don't operate at 110mph on the GN routes. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-387s-speeds.243852/#post-6086878

 

[fgwrich]

Don't forget the lack of bodyside cameras for DOO, and presumably the cost of fitting ETCS equipment.

Of course perhaps they could have been cascaded somewhere else, but they were life expired here.

They were due to be. Original plans for the GWEP would have seen the Odd numbered units (which eventually temporarily ended up at ScotRail) go to Great Western while the even numbered units were due to stay at GTR. But then the speculative 387 order came along and the rest is history.

 

[LudwigTails]

and a very odd question here. With GN's 387s having speed of 110 and 379 only having 100. How is this going to cope with timetable? Unless its the timetable allowing the 379 to make time. Any plans of upgrading the speed of 379s to match upcoming timetable changes?
And is it still unconfirm how many 387/1s is going to southern?

 

[pompeyfan]

and a very odd question here. With GN's 387s having speed of 110 and 379 only having 100. How is this going to cope with timetable? Unless its the timetable allowing the 379 to make time. Any plans of upgrading the speed of 379s to match upcoming timetable changes?
And is it still unconfirm how many 387/1s is going to southern?

I thought GTRs safety case only permitted 100mph anyway?

 

[Electrostar387]

and a very odd question here. With GN's 387s having speed of 110 and 379 only having 100. How is this going to cope with timetable? Unless its the timetable allowing the 379 to make time. Any plans of upgrading the speed of 379s to match upcoming timetable changes?
And is it still unconfirm how many 387/1s is going to southern?

Mentioned a few times above, but 387s don't run at 110mph on ECML due to various reasons, so no issues with 379s topping out at 100mph.

 

[Fincra5]

and a very odd question here. With GN's 387s having speed of 110 and 379 only having 100. How is this going to cope with timetable? Unless its the timetable allowing the 379 to make time. Any plans of upgrading the speed of 379s to match upcoming timetable changes?
And is it still unconfirm how many 387/1s is going to southern?

As others have said its irrevlent for the GN, as 387s are only allowed to do 100mph on the ECML, I always blame the Devils Knitting... So the speeds for a 387 timed train, which I don't think are any different to a 700, wouldn't change.

It will be, at least, the same amount of 387s to SN that 379s replace.

 

[43074]

It will be, at least, the same amount of 387s to SN that 379s replace.

There won't be as many 387s moving south as there are 379s coming in as a few of the 387s are staying with Great Northern to increase capacity there.

I'd bet on something like 12, if not a few more, 387s staying at Hornsey.

 

[D365]

I assume that, if the ex-Thameslink 387/1s are to be fitted with ETCS, they will be the subclass retained by Great Northern. Not sure how many of the /1s are contracted for fitment (whether or not it’s the 29-strong Great Northern fleet).

Will the GWR 387/1s be retained by GTR once the 379s come in, or are they just there on short term cover?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I assume that, if the ex-Thameslink 387/1s are to be fitted with ETCS, they will be the subclass retained by Great Northern. Not sure how many of the /1s are contracted for fitment (whether or not it’s the 29-strong Great Northern fleet).

Will the GWR 387/1s be retained by GTR once the 379s come in, or are they just there on short term cover?

I remember reading in the Southern Coastway West timetable changes that the three former GWR 387/1 sets will join Southern’s pool and work Southampton Brightons.

 

[brad465]

There won't be as many 387s moving south as there are 379s coming in as a few of the 387s are staying with Great Northern to increase capacity there.

I'd bet on something like 12, if not a few more, 387s staying at Hornsey.

I presume this is accounting for all 39 currently at Great Northern, so if what you say happens, 27 or less move south, which is still a notable number I think (even if this is not the net increase at Southern).

 

[Fincra5]

Well, lets call the cascade plan fluid...

There won't be as many 387s moving south as there are 379s coming in as a few of the 387s are staying with Great Northern to increase capacity there.

I'd bet on something like 12, if not a few more, 387s staying at Hornsey.

 

[TrainBoy98]

I remember reading in the Southern Coastway West timetable changes that the three former GWR 387/1 sets will join Southern’s pool and work Southampton Brightons.

Southerns own map of services shows Southampton/Brighton being 387s