Great Western Electrification extension suggestions

[Train Maniac]

The case for Cardiff Swansea was appalling, particularly in the context of an all bi-mode fleet. Hence it was dropped.

How Come? Surely Swansea is the logical conclusion of the South Wales Main Line, right?

 

[JamesT]

How Come? Surely Swansea is the logical conclusion of the South Wales Main Line, right?

Cost a lot (last estimate £450m) for very little benefit. The IETs are almost as quick on diesel as they would be on electric if the section was to be electrified. No real likelihood of other electric train types running on that section in the near future.

It may seem logical to run to the end of the Line, but in value for money terms we’re better spending the money on sections like Didcot-Oxford to get the capacity uplift of running long class 387s instead of short turbos (and cascading the turbos elsewhere that needs them).

 

[The Ham]

Cost a lot (last estimate £450m) for very little benefit. The IETs are almost as quick on diesel as they would be on electric if the section was to be electrified. No real likelihood of other electric train types running on that section in the near future.

It may seem logical to run to the end of the Line, but in value for money terms we’re better spending the money on sections like Didcot-Oxford to get the capacity uplift of running long class 387s instead of short turbos (and cascading the turbos elsewhere that needs them).

Presumably it would also be better (but not better than to Oxford) to do somewhere which would otherwise appears to be rather random, like Exeter to Paignton of it then allowed other EMU services. Especially if there were plans for XC to get bimodal units too.

 

[DLJ]

With two big fistfuls of 'what would suit me personally' crayons...

IET Bristol Temple Meads (via Parkway or Bath), then across the Reading throat to onto North Downs (extend past GW down to Three Bridges). Or, a cheeky trip down the WLL off the GWML down to Clapham Junction and then on to TB would do a job for me (is that last physically possible)?

Seem to remember a route Reading - Brighton Via Kensington Olympia, but I'm sure those paths are long gone. If you could get paths (v. unlikely, I know) would it beat my own personal record Temple Meads - Three Bridges in 2:46 (done today, via Paddington / Victoria)

 

[anthony263]

How Come? Surely Swansea is the logical conclusion of the South Wales Main Line, right?

Plus swansea to Cardiff local services were planned to be operated by emus and sewta/tfw wantedvto run a half hourly Maesteg to Ebbw vale service using emus

 

[Bald Rick]

With two big fistfuls of 'what would suit me personally' crayons...

IET Bristol Temple Meads (via Parkway or Bath), then across the Reading throat to onto North Downs (extend past GW down to Three Bridges). Or, a cheeky trip down the WLL off the GWML down to Clapham Junction and then on to TB would do a job for me (is that last physically possible)?

Seem to remember a route Reading - Brighton Via Kensington Olympia, but I'm sure those paths are long gone. If you could get paths (v. unlikely, I know) would it beat my own personal record Temple Meads - Three Bridges in 2:46 (done today, via Paddington / Victoria)

It’s only possible via Acton / Acton Wells / Willesden / WLL. I’m not sure an IET will fit through platforms 16/17 at Clapham though.

 

[swt_passenger]

With two big fistfuls of 'what would suit me personally' crayons...

IET Bristol Temple Meads (via Parkway or Bath), then across the Reading throat to onto North Downs (extend past GW down to Three Bridges)...)

Much better to use the east end diveunder that was reopened as part of the major rebuild?

 

[PTR 444]

I’d like to see the whole of the GWR mainline network electrified within my lifetime, however that’s going to be impossible to do all at once so I would suggest completing it in stages as follows:

2021

• Bristol Parkway/Patchway - Bristol Temple Meads
• Didcot - Oxford - Banbury

2022

• Chippenham - Bath Spa - BTM
• Reading - Basingstoke

2023

• Cardiff - Swansea

2024

• BTM - Taunton including Weston Super Mare loop
• Newbury - Bedwyn

2025

• Bristol Parkway - Bromsgrove including Gloucester spur

2026

• North Downs Line

2027

• Severn Beach Line

2028

• Bath Spa - Westbury
• Chippenham - Melksham - Trowbridge

2029

• Taunton - Exeter

2030

• Exeter - Plymouth/Paignton
• Bromsgrove/Cheltenham - Worcester - Hereford

2031

• Swindon - Gloucester

2032

• Oxford - Worcester

2033

• Bedwyn - Taunton

2034

• Swansea - Carmarthen

2035

• Plymouth - Penzance/Newquay

2036

• Exeter - Exmouth
• Exeter - Barnstaple

2037

• Westbury - Salisbury - Southampton

2038

• Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock/Milford Haven/Fishguard Harbour

2039

• Castle Cary - Dorchester

This will leave the Greenford, Windsor, Henley on Thames, Marlow, Gunnislake, Looe, Falmouth and St Ives branches unelectrified, but they can be operated using battery powered units.

 

[Optom1]

Electrics are most efficient at short interval stop start,preferably 4 trains an hour with as little civil engineering works as possible,so I hope most of the skilled workforce will be needed for: Valley linesxford extension: Chippenham-Weston:Newbury-Bedwyn.As PTR 444 suggests that should be realistic for the next5-7 yrs.I think we we will have to wait for the Voyagers to be longer in the tooth before we see much more!

 

[greatvoyager]

Can see Bristol to Exeter electrified, including the Weston loop. Would the sea wall prevent electrification on the Riviera Line?

 

[jimm]

Presumably it would also be better (but not better than to Oxford) to do somewhere which would otherwise appears to be rather random, like Exeter to Paignton of it then allowed other EMU services. Especially if there were plans for XC to get bimodal units too.

It wouldn't be better in the context of how local services in Devon will operate from December - Exmouth-Exeter-Paignton and back being the dominant pattern for the stoppers in future. With the best will in the world, turfing local passengers out of an emu at Exeter St Davids to go up the hill to Central on a dmu is not going to encourage people from Torbay and Teignbridge to use the train.

Nor would doing Exeter-Paignton take overhead wires to the part of Devon where electric traction would be a huge benefit - up and down the hills between Newton Abbot and Plymouth.

Logic says that it is only going to be worth wiring where and when you can convert the maximum number of services possible to use 25kv - which is why wiring west of Cardiff doesn't look great, due to the number of TfW services that turn off to Maesteg or carry on past Swansea, so will need to either be diesel, bi-mode or have some other means to keep going off the wires - and as TfW is getting new diesel units, I think we can see how things are going to be there for a while to come.

I’d like to see the whole of the GWR mainline network electrified within my lifetime, however that’s going to be impossible to do all at once so I would suggest completing it in stages as follows:

2021

• Bristol Parkway/Patchway - Bristol Temple Meads
• Didcot - Oxford - Banbury.

No one is going to string an inch of overhead wire north of Oxford unless and until XC and Chiltern have trains that can use it all the way to Birmingham (and preferably the freight TOCs as well, to replace lots of Class 66 workings to and from Southampton on container and car trains).

 

[R G NOW.]

I think that some of the schemes the government are proposing may be permanently withdrawn in the light of the development of hydrogen trains.

What do you think?.

 

[The Ham]

I think that some of the schemes the government are proposing may be permanently withdrawn in the light of the development of hydrogen trains.

What do you think?.

Some, maybe, however probably fairly few.

 

[TheWalrus]

I’d like to see the whole of the GWR mainline network electrified within my lifetime, however that’s going to be impossible to do all at once so I would suggest completing it in stages as follows:

2021

• Bristol Parkway/Patchway - Bristol Temple Meads
• Didcot - Oxford - Banbury

2022

• Chippenham - Bath Spa - BTM
• Reading - Basingstoke

2023

• Cardiff - Swansea

2024

• BTM - Taunton including Weston Super Mare loop
• Newbury - Bedwyn

2025

• Bristol Parkway - Bromsgrove including Gloucester spur

2026

• North Downs Line

2027

• Severn Beach Line

2028

• Bath Spa - Westbury
• Chippenham - Melksham - Trowbridge

2029

• Taunton - Exeter

2030

• Exeter - Plymouth/Paignton
• Bromsgrove/Cheltenham - Worcester - Hereford

2031

• Swindon - Gloucester

2032

• Oxford - Worcester

2033

• Bedwyn - Taunton

2034

• Swansea - Carmarthen

2035

• Plymouth - Penzance/Newquay

2036

• Exeter - Exmouth
• Exeter - Barnstaple

2037

• Westbury - Salisbury - Southampton

2038

• Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock/Milford Haven/Fishguard Harbour

2039

• Castle Cary - Dorchester

This will leave the Greenford, Windsor, Henley on Thames, Marlow, Gunnislake, Looe, Falmouth and St Ives branches unelectrified, but they can be operated using battery powered units.

Out of all those I would personally only bother with Bristol Parkway/Patchway-Temple Meads-Weston-Taunton-Exeter-Paignton; Oxford-Didcot; Reading-Basingstoke; Slough-Windsor; Twyford-Henley. Most of those would only be if XC had bi-modes. That’s also coming from someone whose local station is Bedwyn and it’s not worth extending wires beyond Newbury IMO. I may also consider Exmouth line for electrification.

 

[R G NOW.]

I have had a thought.? How are we going to get enough power to work the new schemes, when we have hardly any coal power stations left. I think Didcot should of perhaps been converted to biomass.

 

[HSTEd]

I have had a thought.? How are we going to get enough power to work the new schemes, when we have hardly any coal power stations left. I think Didcot should of perhaps been converted to biomass.

The same place where all the rest of the power comes from. And the same place power for hypothetical hydrogen trains would come from.

The nice thing about power grids is that they don't really care where the power comes from, as long as power in equals power out at all times.

Hydrogen trains are not going to go anywhere any time soon, and are likely to be crushed by batteries if anything.

 

[The Ham]

I have had a thought.? How are we going to get enough power to work the new schemes, when we have hardly any coal power stations left. I think Didcot should of perhaps been converted to biomass.

Given that we've reduced our electricity usage by 15% since 2010 and increased the amount of renewable electricity generated to a point higher than was predicted to be the case for 2020 then it's unlikely that the gap from 30% of energy generation from coal in 2014 to 5% in 2018 will be of any great concern.

 

[HowardGWR]

Whatever the phasing of these schemes, it would be useful to develop a parallel cascading scheme for the bimodes and also an acquisition scheme for all-electrics. If one electrifies Filton Bank and acquires a stock of class 801s, then one can start using the 800s on Cardiff to Portsmouth services (for instance).

 

[gingertom]

Whatever the phasing of these schemes, it would be useful to develop a parallel cascading scheme for the bimodes and also an acquisition scheme for all-electrics. If one electrifies Filton Bank and acquires a stock of class 801s, then one can start using the 800s on Cardiff to Portsmouth services (for instance).

you mean joined up thinking? That will never catch on! I agree it would be sensible.

 

[JamesT]

Whatever the phasing of these schemes, it would be useful to develop a parallel cascading scheme for the bimodes and also an acquisition scheme for all-electrics. If one electrifies Filton Bank and acquires a stock of class 801s, then one can start using the 800s on Cardiff to Portsmouth services (for instance).

I thought the idea was the diesels would be removed from the existing trains if the scope of electrification grew sufficiently, rather than cascading different stock in and out?

 

[Meerkat]

Surely if GWR can use pure electrics they get new ones and XC get the bimodes?

 

[jimm]

Whatever the phasing of these schemes, it would be useful to develop a parallel cascading scheme for the bimodes and also an acquisition scheme for all-electrics. If one electrifies Filton Bank and acquires a stock of class 801s, then one can start using the 800s on Cardiff to Portsmouth services (for instance).

Why are people on this forum obsessed with putting 125mph express trains on Cardiff-Portsmouth services? And bi-modes that would be able to use 25kv for just over 30 miles of a 140-mile journey at that (or about 50 miles if wires ever get to Temple Meads and Bath).

If bi-mode was the way to go on the route, which is questionable given the limited amount of electrification (unless you envisage bolting on 750v DC equipment as well), then it would make far more sense to order something new with operating characteristics far more suited to the job - which would probably mean going to Stadler.

There are plenty of services far more suitable for the (unlikely for a long time) redeployment of GWR 800s, where their 100mph+ capability would actually be used. Or they might just be internally redeployed on GWR if, for example, the new hourly service between London and Gloucester/Cheltenham takes off and more capacity is needed there, or elsewhere.

 

[Energy]

I think the priority is electrifying areas which should have emus, like Oxford to Didcot. This is to allow turbo cascades which will benefit other routes compared to electrifying certain sections which only improve that line.

 

[Meerkat]

No one is going to string an inch of overhead wire north of Oxford unless and until XC and Chiltern have trains that can use it all the way to Birmingham (and preferably the freight TOCs as well, to replace lots of Class 66 workings to and from Southampton on container and car trains).

wiring to Banbury would enable the Oxford-Banbury locals to be extensions of the EMU stoppers, giving faster, more attractive services and better at keeping out the way of XC and freight.