Great Western Electrification Progress

[HowardGWR]

Yes, but they won't ever be contracted to scale with unprojected additional costs. That would be insane.

I must admit, it would be the most interesting insight for the Transport Select Committee to see how much of the budget has gone on 'suits' and how much on 'orange army', as opposed to vague headings such as 'contractors'..

 

[w1bbl3]

Welcome to the magic of cost-plus.

Unless the cost consultants / quantity surveyors got their qualifications off the back of a packet of cornflakes cost-plus would be established from a fixed baseline not percentage linked to the overall scheme value.

There would be cost being the actual quantifiable amount spent by the contractor/consultant and the "plus" being a pre-agreed margin to cover overhead and profit.

A design/engineering consultant should thus submit timesheets listing out the time spent by each resource level e.g. junior engineer, senior engineer, daughtsperson, document controller, design manager etc... The contract would list an agreed rate for each.
A contractor would do the same listing out, plant, materials and resources all using pre-agreed rates.

The client then has to manage this to stay within budget (or not).

What contract have NR selected for contractors and consultants on GWML?

Crossrail as an example went for NEC3 with consultants on framework agreements and contractors on Option C Target Contract (aka risk sharing between client and contractor).

One would hope NR have not selected a management or cost reimbursable contract. As doing so requires very strong project and cost management to stay within the projected figures. The other forms are more likely to aid in cost management if only because the contractors/consultants will scream for variations for anything outside of original scope which should make it simpler for the QS's to realise the budget is done for.

 

[chemphys]

My experiences were pretty positive commuting in and back from London each day. A bit of a queue to get onto the bridge at the London edge after arriving on P2 and there is a slight hump at the bottom on Platform 4 that I stumbled on both mornings! But seemed pretty organised.

Wednesday, the train ex-Ealing was very front loaded with the front carriage being full to the point no one could board with 5 minutes before departure. Girlfriend and I were in the last (of 6) carriage on our own on the 17:36.

Thursday, same train, they had closed the doors on the front carriage and were making people walk down the platform to board, I guess to leave space for the late arrivers.

London destination was near Victoria, so we planned to get the District line from Ealing before realising that that was out around Earls Court and would have required changing to the Piccadilly line. Thankfully the Central line held up or that could have made getting to Ealing very tricky with everyone trying to get onto the Piccadilly.

 

[ANP1990]

Trains back in Paddington today - lots of work still ongoing.

- bridge over platform 1 & 2 is back, with a slightly thinner profile.
- suburban platforms have new/fixed canopies (looked new).
- was platform 14 wired? If not that is now as well.

 

[leomartin125]

Trains back in Paddington today - lots of work still ongoing.

- bridge over platform 1 & 2 is back, with a slightly thinner profile.
- suburban platforms have new/fixed canopies (looked new).
- was platform 14 wired? If not that is now as well.

Platform 14 was indeed wired, many months ago. Has the work on P12/13 finished yet or still ongoing?

 

[Who Cares]

I've spent the last couple of weeks in South Stoke, near Goring.

Despite the OLE having been in place for almost two years now, and reported to have been 'live' since July of this year, the past two weeks there has been overnight working almost every night. Two years and counting of overnight piling noise, flashing lights, vehicles driving round the village between 2am and 5am, and constant 'train approaching' alarms.

And just before Christmas, residents received yet another notification from NR that there will be overnight working between Tilehurst and Fulscot until December 2017.

Which begs the question - when is a 'stretch' of line finished and ready for operation or not, as Tilehurst to Didcot was the first stretch of track to receive OLE as, according to NR, it was to be the Test Track for the new trains, although not a single one has been seen.

NR's incompetence appears to have no limits....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Test Track has been used by IEP trains since September, but only under special conditions.
This generally involves night-time running of a few passes each way.
They are testing the trains as much as the route.
The route is not yet passed for general electric operation.
I'm not sure the relief lines (the northern pair) have been used at all yet.

 

[ANP1990]

Platform 14 was indeed wired, many months ago. Has the work on P12/13 finished yet or still ongoing?

12 & 13 was very much under construction this morning.

 

[Taunton]

Unless the cost consultants / quantity surveyors got their qualifications off the back of a packet of cornflakes cost-plus would be established from a fixed baseline not percentage linked to the overall scheme value.

Without wishing to give a complete QS course, you don't use the least able senior staff on managing such a project, you use the most able, who are well able to identify scope for worthwhile chargeable variations etc that give additional margin to the designers and contractors. Such people are not paid the higher salaries by their employers for nothing, and many will be additionally bonused on such extra margin.

Such skills, incidentally, are nothing you will find listed in Spon's

 

[steverailer]

I've spent the last couple of weeks in South Stoke, near Goring.

Despite the OLE having been in place for almost two years now, and reported to have been 'live' since July of this year, the past two weeks there has been overnight working almost every night. Two years and counting of overnight piling noise, flashing lights, vehicles driving round the village between 2am and 5am, and constant 'train approaching' alarms.

And just before Christmas, residents received yet another notification from NR that there will be overnight working between Tilehurst and Fulscot until December 2017.

Which begs the question - when is a 'stretch' of line finished and ready for operation or not, as Tilehurst to Didcot was the first stretch of track to receive OLE as, according to NR, it was to be the Test Track for the new trains, although not a single one has been seen.

NR's incompetence appears to have no limits....

Not incompetence, just box ticking and reaching target dates for the great and good to get their bonuses lol.

The works that are now being done is snagging. The wire was installed to an acceptable tolerance for the completion of the wiring and the allowing of the running of the test trains, this tolerance is a good way of the actual design and acceptable one for main stream daily running of electric trains. This is the work that will be carried out, getting the registration and clearances correct

 

[edwin_m]

Without wishing to give a complete QS course, you don't use the least able senior staff on managing such a project, you use the most able, who are well able to identify scope for worthwhile chargeable variations etc that give additional margin to the designers and contractors. Such people are not paid the higher salaries by their employers for nothing, and many will be additionally bonused on such extra margin.

Such skills, incidentally, are nothing you will find listed in Spon's

And the employer needs people with similar skills to spot when variations or their prices are unreasonable and put a stop to it. They also need to ensure that the contract includes agreed arrangements for making variations, such as fixed rates for the staff involved.

 

[Taunton]

Not incompetence, just box ticking and reaching target dates for the great and good to get their bonuses lol.

The works that are now being done is snagging. The wire was installed to an acceptable tolerance for the completion of the wiring and the allowing of the running of the test trains, this tolerance is a good way of the actual design and acceptable one for main stream daily running of electric trains. This is the work that will be carried out, getting the registration and clearances correct

Doing a Second Fix etc is a quite straightforward way of handling an engineering task. What is just not acceptable, however, is presenting the intermediate stages as "job finished". There was a stage in this project where every mast pile driven was described in tones that would make you think the total works were being completed.

Thameslink has been as bad. the duplicated viaduct at Borough Market was certainly described as "completed" and "on time on budget", along with a sycophantic article (well, they just reprinted the PR-plug actually) about the triumph in Modern Railways that said the same, several YEARS before any track was laid there.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Has the speed limit been increased on some of the tracks out of Paddington since electrification?

[youtube]kM0ednOwp6A[/youtube]

At the end of that video the 387 is going quite fast as the end of it leaves the platform

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Has the speed limit been increased on some of the tracks out of Paddington since electrification?

Back in the 1970s, the Western Region did what it could so that HSTs could run at 125 mph from Paddington to Reading and vice versa. This included demolishing the Platform 1s at stations such as Acton and Hayes.

With even the "fast" local services banished to the reliefs, these also have been upgraded over the subsequent years, straightening out West Drayton being one such example.

Whilst they got the relief lines electrified as part of "Heathrow Express", the electrification was to a 100 mph standard even on the mains, which is now to be upgraded.

 

[Who Cares]

Not incompetence, just box ticking and reaching target dates for the great and good to get their bonuses lol.

The works that are now being done is snagging. The wire was installed to an acceptable tolerance for the completion of the wiring and the allowing of the running of the test trains, this tolerance is a good way of the actual design and acceptable one for main stream daily running of electric trains. This is the work that will be carried out, getting the registration and clearances correct

STEVE....

So are we safe to assume that the mileage between Swindon and Bath and then Bath and Cardiff will eventually become available after snagged and post-snagged snagging for 'electrified' operation approx two and a half years after all piling has been completed - say, mid 2020 / 2021 ?

If that really is the case, the current £2 billion overspend will be closer to £4 biliion ( or approx 800% of originally estimated Project Costs ) for approx 75% of total planned track mileage and, what, three years behind scheduled completion ?

And the consultations / decisions re the AsONB might add another couple of years and £000's millions

You're absolutely correct - box ticking and NR Managements' pockets filled to overflowing appear to have been infinitely more important than tax payers money !!

 

[steverailer]

STEVE....

So are we safe to assume that the mileage between Swindon and Bath and then Bath and Cardiff will eventually become available after snagged and post-snagged snagging for 'electrified' operation approx two and a half years after all piling has been completed - say, mid 2020 / 2021 ?

If that really is the case, the current £2 billion overspend will be closer to £4 biliion ( or approx 800% of originally estimated Project Costs ) for approx 75% of total planned track mileage and, what, three years behind scheduled completion ?

And the consultations / decisions re the AsONB might add another couple of years and £000's millions

You're absolutely correct - box ticking and NR Managements' pockets filled to overflowing appear to have been infinitely more important than tax payers money !!

No because the installation teams have learn't a lot compared with the overall management. The section you are on about was a giant learning zone basically. This is a new system which has a lot of things not found anywhere else on the rail network yet. Even long term railway men have been learning new stuff. Subsequent sections will have materials installed much nearer to the actual working tolerance, and will require less snagging. Plus quite a bit was installed as near as possible to meet the wireup/power up date. This is the same on every project (think phase 1 of the NW work had about 18 months of snagging on it?)

Night working on OLE is something that you will have to get used to I'm afraid, as its not a case of install and leave, it will need regular inspection and 'tippy-tappy' work through out its entire working life.

 

[jyte]

Has the speed limit been increased on some of the tracks out of Paddington since electrification?

[youtube]kM0ednOwp6A[/youtube]

At the end of that video the 387 is going quite fast as the end of it leaves the platform

My understanding is that starting speed from the central main platforms (I.E. 5-8) was 40mph and has been for some time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[FGW_Lad]

My understanding is that starting speed from the central main platforms (I.E. 5-8) was 40mph and has been for some time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

I believe it is 40mph for platforms 1 - 10 and 25mph for platforms 11 - 14.

 

[jayah]

Unless the cost consultants / quantity surveyors got their qualifications off the back of a packet of cornflakes cost-plus would be established from a fixed baseline not percentage linked to the overall scheme value.

I can just about remember an industry journalist held in great esteem reporting one of his 'chums' reckoned around £500k per stkm for AC main line electrification. Even NR were saying £500-650k with opportunities on the downside. It will be more like £5m before they are finished.

There was the most incredible optimism and group think taking hold about what could be done where modern methods met AC electrification but they have been blown out of the water by reality.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 140mph spec which forced the constant wire height seems to be in the bin now, as DfT only requires 125mph.

Even then, the 140 mph spec may not have been specced across the whole GW. Would it ever be likely to be needed on the B&H, even if it was considered for the main route to South Wales?

 

[swt_passenger]

My understanding is that starting speed from the central main platforms (I.E. 5-8) was 40mph and has been for some time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

There was a detailed discussion of line speeds leaving Paddington about 10 weeks ago in the 387 thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92831&highlight=speed&page=269

...and the eventual consensus after some duff gen was that nearly all Paddington platforms are 40 mph, and this is supported by the relevant sectional appendix.

 

[Taunton]

No because the installation teams have learnt a lot compared with the overall management. The section you are on about was a giant learning zone basically.

Presumably once the remaining sections get round to being electrified sometime well into the next decade, all this "experience" will have moved on to other jobs, and everything will have to be learnt again.

Though somehow this did not seem to apply to the ECML electrification, which was the first major overhead project for a long period. Perhaps they didn't feel the need to employ multiple tiers of highly-paid consultants to give advice on how to do it "efficiently".

 

[leomartin125]

I believe it is 40mph for platforms 1 - 10 and 25mph for platforms 11 - 14.

I had an argument on this forum a while ago about me stating that I spoke to a GWR 387 driver claiming those 387's hit 40mph by the end of the platform, incredible accleration! But as usual, lots of members decided to state that was impossible and that the driver would be speeding. FINALLY, my point has been proven correct. You can hit 40mph from some of the platforms at PAD.

 

[swt_passenger]

I had an argument on this forum a while ago about me stating that I spoke to a GWR 387 driver claiming those 387's hit 40mph by the end of the platform, incredible accleration! But as usual, lots of members decided to state that was impossible and that the driver would be speeding. FINALLY, my point has been proven correct. You can hit 40mph from some of the platforms at PAD.

It was answered in the affirmative in the discussion that followed your original point in that 387 thread, the link I posted above goes to the middle of the discussion and is about a page after your original post.

 

[QueensCurve]

There was a detailed discussion of line speeds leaving Paddington about 10 weeks ago in the 387 thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92831&highlight=speed&page=269

...and the eventual consensus after some duff gen was that nearly all Paddington platforms are 40 mph, and this is supported by the relevant sectional appendix.

Also in the accident report for Ladbroke Grove, 1999.

 

[steverailer]

Presumably once the remaining sections get round to being electrified sometime well into the next decade, all this "experience" will have moved on to other jobs, and everything will have to be learnt again.

Though somehow this did not seem to apply to the ECML electrification, which was the first major overhead project for a long period. Perhaps they didn't feel the need to employ multiple tiers of highly-paid consultants to give advice on how to do it "efficiently".

Doubt it on the experience as it will be a slow rolling program so should retain the staff.

As for ECML, you've hit the nail on the head, plus a lot less health and safety, you get close called for not wearing gloves and glasses now or a hoodie. Get that regular and your off the project. I'm not saying that safety is not important because it is, but we've now gone too far the other way that its adding time and cost onto jobs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Even then, the 140 mph spec may not have been specced across the whole GW. Would it ever be likely to be needed on the B&H, even if it was considered for the main route to South Wales?

Having 140mph in the spec at all means that all the foundations, steelwork and wires were designed at that level, with HOPS capability to match.
West of Box/BristolParkway and Oxford/Newbury were always down for non-HOPS construction but still seem to be using the same structural bits as the main line.
There isn't much visible yet, but the same giant masts have gone in towards Newbury and in South Wales, suggesting the 140mph Series 1 spec is still being followed.
You'd have expected Series 2 to be used for the lower-speed routes.

Similarly it leaves the ECML upgrade and MML installation design up in the air if the intention was to go to Series 1 (high tension catenary, constant wire height etc).
We need Philip Phlopp to advise!

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Presumably once the remaining sections get round to being electrified sometime well into the next decade, all this "experience" will have moved on to other jobs, and everything will have to be learnt again.

Though somehow this did not seem to apply to the ECML electrification, which was the first major overhead project for a long period. Perhaps they didn't feel the need to employ multiple tiers of highly-paid consultants to give advice on how to do it "efficiently".

You seem to be very knowledgeable about how the project works Taunton so I assume you work within it or you work for NR ?

 

[HSTEd]

In other words the entire project is overspecced to the gills.
They should never have attempted to use a new deployment concept (HOPS) with unproven overhead wiring (Series 1) where the sole real world installation experience was at Old Dalby. Certainly not at the same time.
Some minor route should have been chosen as a testbed for both Series 1 and HOPS, testing first one then the other.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Some minor route should have been chosen as a testbed for both Series 1 and HOPS, testing first one then the other.

Would a good test route for the two have been Weymouth-Poole? it would have had the side effect of doing away with the unit length restriction on that stretch and wouldn't have been too disruptive had it gone tits up