Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud - Discussion of wider issues/rights/wrongs/etc

[Llanigraham]

I completely disagree. As a commuter, I really have no choice. I need DR on my season ticket to compensate me for the extremely poor service. Why should I pay full price for shoddy service? Delays need to cost TOCs, otherwise they have no incentive to improve. It is not a competitive market so they don't have any other incentive.

You wouldn't get any payment for delays if you caught the bus to work, just as you wouldn't if you drive and got held up. You chose to live where you do and to use the train.

 

[skyhigh]

There’s already instant Delay Repay for some simpler itineraries, but I already outlined - for season tickets - exactly how to compensate passengers who aren’t engaged enough to claim. You simply offer them a discount upon renewal (or vouchers, as another poster helpfully suggested, if they don’t renew).

As it is, there are people who are perfectly happy with the current setup because they benefit from it, because they are engaged enough and keen enough to keep claiming when they are so entitled. But most people aren’t. They just want to get home, and I argue the system should on balance be fairer to them - the majority - which at the same time would allay the current level of fraud with season ticket delay repay schemes.

I agree with this - as an example, a train I was working last week (a fairly standard local service for this area) was delayed due to a bridge strike and arrived with a 20 min delay. If someone held an annual season for the whole journey they'd have been entitled to compensation of 60p. The vast majority of passengers couldn't be bothered going through the hassle of filling out the form for that, I'm sure.

My negative perception of the TOC (SWR) I had a season with has come from day one when they failed to tell us of the change from discount on renewal to Delay Repay, and only found at next renewal. At least under Stagecoach they did give some hint of recognition of annual season ticket holders by sending us free "anywhere on SWT" tickets (effectively SWT day ranger) every year - doesn't cost them anything and is at least a recognition of your business.

I remember you mentioning that when you found out at renewal and I think it's an awful business practice. To be fair, I think the free ticket option as compensation is something that Northern has got right with delay repay. You can get a lot more value out of that than you'd get from the full refund of an advance single, and it gives passengers another chance to experience the company (hopefully in a more positive light without a delay!)

I get the feeling Delay Repay is just a scheme that's been brought in so that the government can be seen to be doing 'something', without really considering if it improves things for passengers. At the least it really needs a crystal clear set of conditions for when you can claim and what you can claim for - which is exactly the same for all TOCs, to avoid issues like those seen with GA, where people are mistakenly claiming for compensation they're not entitled to.

 

[ashkeba]

At the least it really needs a crystal clear set of conditions for when you can claim and what you can claim for - which is exactly the same for all TOCs, to avoid issues like those seen with GA, where people are mistakenly claiming for compensation they're not entitled to.

Or quite often, compensation or refunds that they are indeed entitled to, but through a different form that is not officially DR, even though other TOCs use the DR form for it! The GA repay/refund system is so complicated that it almost appears they want people to make mistakes so they can accuse them of fraud later and get most of it back.

 

[MotCO]

The GA repay/refund system is so complicated that it almost appears they want people to make mistakes so they can accuse them of fraud later and get most of it back.

It's more like 100% back + £200, i.e. a profit to GA.

 

[skyhigh]

Or quite often, compensation or refunds that they are indeed entitled to, but through a different form that is not officially DR, even though other TOCs use the DR form for it! The GA repay/refund system is so complicated that it almost appears they want people to make mistakes so they can accuse them of fraud later and get most of it back.

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant!

 

[robbeech]

You wouldn't get any payment for delays if you caught the bus to work, just as you wouldn't if you drive and got held up. You chose to live where you do and to use the train.

I think people are forgetting the contracted service here.
You buy a ticket, be it an advance single, an off peak day return or an annual season and you exchange money for a service. That service includes various contracted things not limited to actually getting you from A to B (and where applicable back to A again).

The price you pay includes this travel and it includes your rights as a passenger as laid out to you when you buy the ticket. This includes a delay repay scheme. Your ticket price includes this. By taking this away you remove value from the product / service.

if your sky tv package costs £30 per month, and it goes up to £35 per month, it becomes less value for money. Similarly if it remains at £30 per month but you lose 10 channels, it’s value goes down.

Passengers will generally prefer to just get there on time but the rights a passenger has are part of the contract, which is formed when you pay the agreed price for the ticket. It includes the journey, the delay repay scheme, it includes your right to catch the next train if you miss a connection, it includes your right to break your journey over night on some tickets, it includes your right to alternative transport where applicable, it includes your right to use the first class lounge on some tickets.

When you drive, or take the bus, you don’t necessarily have all or any of those rights, so you don’t expect them.

By all means scrap delay repay on all tickets, or just season tickets, which seems to be what some people (not necessarily anyone here) wants to do, though they likely don’t fund their own tickets, but we must accept the significant reduction in value a ticket holds and the way this is considered a substantial stealth price increase.

 

[TPO]

I think people are forgetting the contracted service here.
You buy a ticket, be it an advance single, an off peak day return or an annual season and you exchange money for a service. That service includes various contracted things not limited to actually getting you from A to B (and where applicable back to A again).

The price you pay includes this travel and it includes your rights as a passenger as laid out to you when you buy the ticket. This includes a delay repay scheme. Your ticket price includes this. By taking this away you remove value from the product / service.

if your sky tv package costs £30 per month, and it goes up to £35 per month, it becomes less value for money. Similarly if it remains at £30 per month but you lose 10 channels, it’s value goes down.

Passengers will generally prefer to just get there on time but the rights a passenger has are part of the contract, which is formed when you pay the agreed price for the ticket. It includes the journey, the delay repay scheme, it includes your right to catch the next train if you miss a connection, it includes your right to break your journey over night on some tickets, it includes your right to alternative transport where applicable, it includes your right to use the first class lounge on some tickets.

When you drive, or take the bus, you don’t necessarily have all or any of those rights, so you don’t expect them.

By all means scrap delay repay on all tickets, or just season tickets, which seems to be what some people (not necessarily anyone here) wants to do, though they likely don’t fund their own tickets, but we must accept the significant reduction in value a ticket holds and the way this is considered a substantial stealth price increase.

Indeed.

There's also this small fact that the railways are recipients of a LOT of public money (not many subsidised buses outside London these days) AND are usually a de-facto monopoly in their area. The thing with compensation schemes is that like other parts of the railway penalty regime it creates at least some degree of incentive for a key component of customer service (delays) on the TOC- bearing in mind Network Rail's non-safety performance is regulated by ORR but that of the TOCs is not.

TOCs who have been focused on the commuter market (i.e. assuming they will always have customers so not really worried about customer service) might be in for a wake-up call over the next year or two. Whilst some people will go back to offices, a lot won't and certainly not in the same patterns. This change was happening anyway just the pandemic restrictions accelerated it to happening in 12 months rather than maybe 12 years. I know a chap with an IT company, he's been flat out installing hardware and software solutions for the past 12 months, the IT industry has moved fast to adapt to the new patterns of working- can the TOCs manage to do the same?

Some TOCs will do OK no doubt- probably those who already are quite good with leisure offerings as they've at least got the basic idea of customer service in their heads.

TPO

 

[AlterEgo]

The thing with compensation schemes is that like other parts of the railway penalty regime it creates at least some degree of incentive for a key component of customer service (delays) on the TOC

I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but Delay Repay liability doesn't make a blind bit of difference to train performance and doesn't form any sort of corporate incentive.

 

[Haywain]

the IT industry has moved fast to adapt to the new patterns of working- can the TOCs manage to do the same?

TOCs are saddled with long term fixed costs and can only realistically make quick savings through staff reductions. In the short term these can be expensive too, so they will struggle to make agile changes.

 

[1955LR]

I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but Delay Repay liability doesn't make a blind bit of difference to train performance and doesn't form any sort of corporate incentive.

I agree, it only seems to give the TOC's an excuse to say, " you get Delay Repay" , what are you moaning about if you train is late.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

Any earlier post said you dont get compensation from bus operators. I can say you get good compensation for any problems with your bus journey if you Travel with Trent Barton in the East Midlands. I have had full refunds from them in the past plus extra compensation when I have complained. They are first class bus company and far superior than using the trains between Derby & Nottingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any earlier post said you dont get compensation from bus operators. I can say you get good compensation for any problems with your bus journey if you Travel with Trent Barton in the East Midlands. I have had full refunds from them in the past plus extra compensation when I have complained. They are first class bus company and far superior than using the trains between Derby & Nottingham.

This is a rare approach and seems to be near-enough exclusive to bus companies that either (a) are managed by Alex Hornby, or (b) have been managed by Alex Hornby at some point in the past. Sadly, that sort of customer-focused operation is missing from much of the rest of the industry, though I think Stagecoach Gold has some sort of guarantee.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

Here is how their delay repay works:-

money back guarantee - trentbarton

trentbarton are proud to be the really good bus company, serving Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire & Leicestershire in the East Midlands.

www.trentbarton.co.uk

 

[Cesarcollie]

This is a rare approach and seems to be near-enough exclusive to bus companies that either (a) are managed by Alex Hornby, or (b) have been managed by Alex Hornby at some point in the past. Sadly, that sort of customer-focused operation is missing from much of the rest of the industry, though I think Stagecoach Gold has some sort of guarantee.

I think in TB’s case this scheme pre-dates Alex Hornby by many years.....

 

[WesternLancer]

Here is how their delay repay works:-

money back guarantee - trentbarton

trentbarton are proud to be the really good bus company, serving Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire & Leicestershire in the East Midlands.

www.trentbarton.co.uk

What, they do that and then don't report the customers to a fraud team or the Police later on? shurley shome mishtake....

 

[Deafdoggie]

What, they do that and then don't report the customers to a fraud team or the Police later on? shurley shome mishtake....

There is no mistake, and don't call me Shirley! TB offer a no quibble refund if you don't like your journey for any reason. Simply tell the driver and you get your money back there and then.
There are just two rules of good customer service, neither of which the railway understands. 1, The customer is always right. 2, When the customer is wrong, reread rule 1.

 

[WesternLancer]

There is no mistake, and don't call me Shirley! TB offer a no quibble refund if you don't like your journey for any reason. Simply tell the driver and you get your money back there and then.
There are just two rules of good customer service, neither of which the railway understands. 1, The customer is always right. 2, When the customer is wrong, reread rule 1.

Yes, I think on one occasion I may have even used the TB refund. Not 100% sure, if so it was a long time ago. Interestingly I'm not sure I would ask for it if the bus was notably late due to traffic congestion for example - which is an interesting thought, since I would claim D-R if a train as late (but I might if the bus broke down en-route say).

 

[robbeech]

As with all these things, in the case of TB, this policy is part of the service provided when you buy a ticket. With other bus operators it is not.

 

[CentralTrainer]

GA email customer stating that they found 5 suspect journeys.

Customer replies stating they can’t remember their movements on the dates so wouldn’t be able to offer a defence and how much it would be costing to settle.

GA then respond back magically finding another 6 journeys and saying “cough up” - knowing full well that if the customer can’t recall the initial 5 - then they sure as eggs is eggs wouldn’t be able to remember another 6 from further back.

Something here fishier than a stall at a Caviar Trade Show…

GA: Kerching

 

[Haywain]

GA email customer stating that they found 5 suspect journeys.

Customer replies stating they can’t remember their movements on the dates so wouldn’t be able to offer a defence and how much it would be costing to settle.

GA then respond back magically finding another 6 journeys and saying “cough up” - knowing full well that if the customer can’t recall the initial 5 - then they sure as eggs is eggs wouldn’t be able to remember another 6 from further back.

Something here fishier than a trade stall at a Caviar Trade Show…

GA: Kerching

On the other hand, you don't become innocent of fraud by forgetting the details.

 

[robbeech]

On the other hand, you don't become innocent of fraud by forgetting the details.

I’d argue you don’t automatically become guilty of fraud either. It is still for them to prove if the passenger goes to court.

Are you are saying you did not get the 16.30 because it was cancelled?
The GA Passenger Charter says if your train is cancelled and you choose not to travel we will give you a refund. It is quiet (of course) as to if this also applies to a season ticket.
If you then travel on a later service of your choice and it is late I assume you can still claim delay repay per the delay.
What seems unclear to me is if say the 16:30 was cancelled, and the first train is 18:30 and that is 20 minutes late at your destination is if GA are saying you can only claim for 15 minutes delay? Because if that is so that is only DR against a train you happened to be able to take, not the delay to your journey.

(Quoted from the main thread to avoid going OT).

If your train is cancelled and you decide not to travel you can obtain a refund. I think it would be very unfair if you then travelled later and claimed delay repay (even if your service was delayed itself) as there is clear intent to travel so you have not abandoned your journey. It's likely you would get away with this unless it was investigated but despite me being somewhat passenger focussed i don't personally find this acceptable and would understand an operator having issues with it. Fraud? perhaps not, but falling foul of the rules, i think it would be argued that way.

 

[packermac]

I’d argue you don’t automatically become guilty of fraud either. It is still for them to prove if the passenger goes to court.



(Quoted from the main thread to avoid going OT).

If your train is cancelled and you decide not to travel you can obtain a refund. I think it would be very unfair if you then travelled later and claimed delay repay (even if your service was delayed itself) as there is clear intent to travel so you have not abandoned your journey. It's likely you would get away with this unless it was investigated but despite me being somewhat passenger focussed i don't personally find this acceptable and would understand an operator having issues with it. Fraud? perhaps not, but falling foul of the rules, i think it would be argued that way.

I would not say I disagree with your view, but where is the "cut off"?
Say you normally get the 17:30, Liverpool St in chaos so you say bugger it I will go to the cinema and get a train about 23:00. Is that still an intent to travel? You have had to change your plans totally. I do not know
I have always been of the view anyway that DR should be scrapped, but if it is there then people should be able to fairly claim for their delayed journey, not just the train they ended up having to use. Any form of transport I personally view as something that only tries to conform to a timetable, but I do believe any transport provider should get you to your destination, albeit late and that may incur them overnighting you in a hotel if necessary.
(I also believe airline tickets should not be refunded if the flight is delayed, but then I worked for an airline plus I spent many years suffering them on duty travel so my view my not be representative.)

 

[Titfield]

I have always been of the view anyway that DR should be scrapped, but if it is there then people should be able to fairly claim for their delayed journey, not just the train they ended up having to use. Any form of transport I personally view as something that only tries to conform to a timetable, but I do believe any transport provider should get you to your destination, albeit late and that may incur them overnighting you in a hotel if necessary.

IMHO one of the problems of any compensation scheme for delayed travel is proportionality. By all means refund a proportion or all of the fare if that is warranted but when organisations have to pay compensation or incur costs above the value of the ticket is that right and proper? Putting someone up in a hotel could cost many times the ticket fare paid.

 

[robbeech]

IMHO one of the problems of any compensation scheme for delayed travel is proportionality. By all means refund a proportion or all of the fare if that is warranted but when organisations have to pay compensation or incur costs above the value of the ticket is that right and proper? Putting someone up in a hotel could cost many times the ticket fare paid.

Fares are calculated based on this as it is part of the service you pay for when you buy a ticket. Overnight accommodation for passengers is very very rare, taxis are a little more frequent but not particularly common place. Much of the time either of these alternatives are required it will be a delay attributed to Network Rail anyway.

 

[AlterEgo]

Fares are calculated based on this as it is part of the service you pay for when you buy a ticket. Overnight accommodation for passengers is very very rare, taxis are a little more frequent but not particularly common place. Much of the time either of these alternatives are required it will be a delay attributed to Network Rail anyway.

Indeed, the provision of taxis is rare and provision of hotels vanishingly rare. It’s not really a factor to take into account here.

 

[Haywain]

IMHO one of the problems of any compensation scheme for delayed travel is proportionality. By all means refund a proportion or all of the fare if that is warranted but when organisations have to pay compensation or incur costs above the value of the ticket is that right and proper? Putting someone up in a hotel could cost many times the ticket fare paid.

So, if I get stuck when paying a priv rate fare should I have less rights to get home than someone paying a full price fare?

 

[Deafdoggie]

IMHO one of the problems of any compensation scheme for delayed travel is proportionality. By all means refund a proportion or all of the fare if that is warranted but when organisations have to pay compensation or incur costs above the value of the ticket is that right and proper? Putting someone up in a hotel could cost many times the ticket fare paid.

I don't think a rail company cancelling the last train of the night and leaving passengers stranded is really fair. Hotel accommodation is very rare indeed, but I think must continue to be provided when no other option.

 

[Dibbo4025]

Fares are calculated based on this as it is part of the service you pay for when you buy a ticket. Overnight accommodation for passengers is very very rare, taxis are a little more frequent but not particularly common place. Much of the time either of these alternatives are required it will be a delay attributed to Network Rail anyway.

The delay attribution is a bit of a red herring here, yes delays can result in payments but these cut both ways and are already built into a TOCs financial planning - remember a significant issue with National Express East Coast was that NR's performance was too good and they had to pay NR rather than receive the money they were expecting

 

[35B]

I would not say I disagree with your view, but where is the "cut off"?
Say you normally get the 17:30, Liverpool St in chaos so you say bugger it I will go to the cinema and get a train about 23:00. Is that still an intent to travel? You have had to change your plans totally. I do not know
I have always been of the view anyway that DR should be scrapped, but if it is there then people should be able to fairly claim for their delayed journey, not just the train they ended up having to use. Any form of transport I personally view as something that only tries to conform to a timetable, but I do believe any transport provider should get you to your destination, albeit late and that may incur them overnighting you in a hotel if necessary.
(I also believe airline tickets should not be refunded if the flight is delayed, but then I worked for an airline plus I spent many years suffering them on duty travel so my view my not be representative.)

I fundamentally disagree on the underlined point, and regard it as a legal fiction that should long ago have been rejected with prejudice. When I purchase a ticket from a transport provider, I do so on the basis of the service offered - of which the timetable is a fundamental part - and the contract is formed as a result. I would not necessarily go so far as to suggest that failure to adhere to the timetable is a breach of that contract as I recognise that there are circumstances that may prevent them delivering that service, but do consider that the provider is under a best endeavours obligation to attempt to deliver upon that contract.

Borrowing from practice in another field, I regard mechanisms like Delay Repay or EU 261 as a no fault means of handling the consequences of the supplier's failure to fulfil the part of the contract that relates to time. The important thing in that arrangement is that it is both definite in how it applies, and that it has no concept of fault. DR is, to my mind and without comment on the specific claim mechanisms that some operators apply, a nigh on perfect application of this. It is proportionate to the underlying cost of the ticket, and has very few opportunities for an operator to decline payment.

Because my view is based on contract principles, there is a balance required. If I am unable to travel on the 17:00, and as a result choose to go to the pub for a while, my claim can only be for the difference between the time I should have completed my journey, and the time that I could have completed that journey on that ticket based on that evening's operations. So, if the 17:00 would have got me in at 18:00, and the next train is the 17:30, which is slightly faster and due in at 18:28, it's the timekeeping of the 17:30 that matters to any claim, and nothing else.

IMHO one of the problems of any compensation scheme for delayed travel is proportionality. By all means refund a proportion or all of the fare if that is warranted but when organisations have to pay compensation or incur costs above the value of the ticket is that right and proper? Putting someone up in a hotel could cost many times the ticket fare paid.

That is the economic risk that the company enters into when offering the business, and seeking to make a profit. Their job is to avoid needing to put me up.

The few times I have had to stop overnight because of disruption, I have either stayed with family or persuaded my employer to bear the cost - in all cases, with a view to having certainty about my plans rather than relying on the uncertainties of service recovery plans.

 

[packermac]

I fundamentally disagree on the underlined point, and regard it as a legal fiction that should long ago have been rejected with prejudice. When I purchase a ticket from a transport provider, I do so on the basis of the service offered - of which the timetable is a fundamental part - and the contract is formed as a result. I would not necessarily go so far as to suggest that failure to adhere to the timetable is a breach of that contract as I recognise that there are circumstances that may prevent them delivering that service, but do consider that the provider is under a best endeavours obligation to attempt to deliver upon that contract.

Borrowing from practice in another field, I regard mechanisms like Delay Repay or EU 261 as a no fault means of handling the consequences of the supplier's failure to fulfil the part of the contract that relates to time. The important thing in that arrangement is that it is both definite in how it applies, and that it has no concept of fault. DR is, to my mind and without comment on the specific claim mechanisms that some operators apply, a nigh on perfect application of this. It is proportionate to the underlying cost of the ticket, and has very few opportunities for an operator to decline payment.

Because my view is based on contract principles, there is a balance required. If I am unable to travel on the 17:00, and as a result choose to go to the pub for a while, my claim can only be for the difference between the time I should have completed my journey, and the time that I could have completed that journey on that ticket based on that evening's operations. So, if the 17:00 would have got me in at 18:00, and the next train is the 17:30, which is slightly faster and due in at 18:28, it's the timekeeping of the 17:30 that matters to any claim, and nothing else.


That is the economic risk that the company enters into when offering the business, and seeking to make a profit. Their job is to avoid needing to put me up.

The few times I have had to stop overnight because of disruption, I have either stayed with family or persuaded my employer to bear the cost - in all cases, with a view to having certainty about my plans rather than relying on the uncertainties of service recovery plans.

I fully understand your Contract Law point, but even at the moment we seem to only apply these to certain types of transport when it suits a political need or mantra (DR, EU 261). So next to no bus operators offer some sort of refund, I believe (happy to be corrected) National Express do not either.
I am sure none of us would want Heritage Railways to be required to provide some sort of refund either, but some of those do connect with other public services (e.g. MHR with SWR at Alton, NYMR with Northern at Grosmont, Swanage with the 50 bus to Bournemouth at Swanage). All connections that passengers, even those "just having a ride" may be relying on.