Greater Anglia Partial Fare Evasion

[Ollie7001]

Hi, first-time poster.

My friend got stopped last week by an "officer" at Stratford Station for a ticket check. She openly admitted at the time that he did not have a ticket for the full journey and that she only paid from Chelmsford to Ingatestone due to it being a cheaper fare to save money. At all times she was open and honest with the officer and did not lie. She buys her tickets through Trainline rather than Greater Anglia directly and has done this a total of 39 times dating from March 13th to August 29th. This is made up of Chelmsford to Ingatestone (should be Chelmsford to Stratford) as well as Ingatestone to Chelmsford (Should be Stratford to Chelmsford)

Calculating the cost of the journeys I anticipate roughly £400 of unpaid fares (based on them being anytime day single tickets).
The officer requested to see their journey history when stopped and they willingly showed them their trainline account and history to which they took photos. They also took photos of proof of address from her. When asked why she did it, she explained to the officer that her ex put her in a bad financial position and she was doing it to save money. He did state to her that if she is honest with him then he will try to help her.

She has now received an email from the Greater Anglia fraud investigations team with the title travel irregularity. It states that she was spoken to by Greater Anglia staff in relation to ticket irregularity and the facts of this incident have been submitted to the office and are being considered for legal proceedings.
It also states that if she wishes to contact them about the case then to do so within 7 days and an email to contact them. Lastly, it states that without her input this matter could be passed to the prosecution team.

Based on all of the above information I am after advice on the best steps to avoid prosecution. She is willing to pay back the missing fare amounts as well as a fine. She is in absolute despair over the incident and openly admitted to the officer that she will never do this again and has since traveled and paid the full fare.
Should she respond? should she email back pleading the case based on the circumstances around her ex? Should she state she was under duress and felt threatened etc by the officer? just want to know the best response. She has never been fined or warned in the past, this is a first time offence.


To add further complication she is here on a work visa and so is absolutely petrified that what was a silly decision may result in that being cancelled if she was to get prosecuted.

Any help you're able to give would be greatly appreciated.

 

[skyhigh]

She buys her tickets through Trainline rather than Greater Anglia directly and has done this a total of 39 times dating from March 13th to August 29th. This is made up of Chelmsford to Ingatestone (should be Chelmsford to Stratford) as well as Ingatestone to Chelmsford (Should be Stratford to Chelmsford)

Calculating the cost of the journeys I anticipate roughly £400 of unpaid fares (based on them being anytime day single tickets).

Just a note of warning regarding the amount you've calculated there - when offering a settlement, train operators usually do not consider the amount paid in part fares.

The Anytime Day Single from Chelmsford to Stratford is £16.50. Multiply that by 39 and you get £643.50.

On top of this costs of around £100-200 are usually added. So if the operator chooses to offer a settlement fee, you should expect to pay in the region of £850. If this is offered the company would usually expect the amount to be paid in one installment.

We're not able to comment on immigration matters unfortunately.

 

[UserM]

Hi, first-time poster.

My friend got stopped last week by an "officer" at Stratford Station for a ticket check. She openly admitted at the time that he did not have a ticket for the full journey and that she only paid from Chelmsford to Ingatestone due to it being a cheaper fare to save money. At all times she was open and honest with the officer and did not lie. She buys her tickets through Trainline rather than Greater Anglia directly and has done this a total of 39 times dating from March 13th to August 29th. This is made up of Chelmsford to Ingatestone (should be Chelmsford to Stratford) as well as Ingatestone to Chelmsford (Should be Stratford to Chelmsford)

Calculating the cost of the journeys I anticipate roughly £400 of unpaid fares (based on them being anytime day single tickets).
The officer requested to see their journey history when stopped and they willingly showed them their trainline account and history to which they took photos. They also took photos of proof of address from her. When asked why she did it, she explained to the officer that her ex put her in a bad financial position and she was doing it to save money. He did state to her that if she is honest with him then he will try to help her.

She has now received an email from the Greater Anglia fraud investigations team with the title travel irregularity. It states that she was spoken to by Greater Anglia staff in relation to ticket irregularity and the facts of this incident have been submitted to the office and are being considered for legal proceedings.
It also states that if she wishes to contact them about the case then to do so within 7 days and an email to contact them. Lastly, it states that without her input this matter could be passed to the prosecution team.

Based on all of the above information I am after advice on the best steps to avoid prosecution. She is willing to pay back the missing fare amounts as well as a fine. She is in absolute despair over the incident and openly admitted to the officer that she will never do this again and has since traveled and paid the full fare.
Should she respond? should she email back pleading the case based on the circumstances around her ex? Should she state she was under duress and felt threatened etc by the officer? just want to know the best response. She has never been fined or warned in the past, this is a first time offence.


To add further complication she is here on a work visa and so is absolutely petrified that what was a silly decision may result in that being cancelled if she was to get prosecuted.

Any help you're able to give would be greatly appreciated.

I will leave the issue to whether or not to reply to the email from Greater Anglia, to the more regular posters in this area of the forum.

But I will add one thing. It is an offence under Section 84(1) of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 prohibits any person from providing immigration advice or services unless they are regulated. As far as I know no one here is regulated by one of the OISC or other such approved bodies. Thus to give advice on the work visa would leave them liable to prosecution.

Thus in summary we can not offer an advice on what a potential conviction would do for your friend’s immigration status and leave to remain in the UK. You would be well minded to have your friend receive qualified legal advice on her immigration status.

A good place to check being: https://home.oisc.gov.uk/adviser_finder/finder.aspx

 

[Ollie7001]

Hi guys,
Sorry just add. Not expecting anyone to offer advice re the immigration aspect of this, just included as to whether this is worthwhile mentioning in the response when attempting to settle the case out of court by way of Greater Anglias own prosecution policy which mentions prosecution being in the public interest.

 

[UserM]

Hi guys,
Sorry just add. Not expecting anyone to offer advice re the immigration aspect of this, just included as to whether this is worthwhile mentioning in the response when attempting to settle the case out of court by way of Greater Anglias own prosecution policy which mentions prosecution being in the public interest.

Others may have a different opinion to me. But depending on whether GA chose a Byelaw or Regulation of the Railways Act prosecution. There is no public interest test that they must satisfy. This would be a private prosecution by GA.

I will add before others mention it, that the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) retain the right to take over any such private prosecution and terminate if they deem that necessary. However very few instances of the CPS doing this exist.

This is all for some background, thus the GA prosecution policy is potentially at slight odds with reality. Though we don’t know if they have their own version of a public interest test. Though from years of reading the D&P section of this forum, I would very much suggest that they don’t, or if they do it is most misguided.

I will leave it to others as to what to include in any potential reply.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, first-time poster.

My friend got stopped last week by an "officer" at Stratford Station for a ticket check. She openly admitted at the time that he did not have a ticket for the full journey and that she only paid from Chelmsford to Ingatestone due to it being a cheaper fare to save money. At all times she was open and honest with the officer and did not lie. She buys her tickets through Trainline rather than Greater Anglia directly and has done this a total of 39 times dating from March 13th to August 29th. This is made up of Chelmsford to Ingatestone (should be Chelmsford to Stratford) as well as Ingatestone to Chelmsford (Should be Stratford to Chelmsford)

Calculating the cost of the journeys I anticipate roughly £400 of unpaid fares (based on them being anytime day single tickets).
The officer requested to see their journey history when stopped and they willingly showed them their trainline account and history to which they took photos. They also took photos of proof of address from her. When asked why she did it, she explained to the officer that her ex put her in a bad financial position and she was doing it to save money. He did state to her that if she is honest with him then he will try to help her.

She has now received an email from the Greater Anglia fraud investigations team with the title travel irregularity. It states that she was spoken to by Greater Anglia staff in relation to ticket irregularity and the facts of this incident have been submitted to the office and are being considered for legal proceedings.
It also states that if she wishes to contact them about the case then to do so within 7 days and an email to contact them. Lastly, it states that without her input this matter could be passed to the prosecution team.

Based on all of the above information I am after advice on the best steps to avoid prosecution. She is willing to pay back the missing fare amounts as well as a fine. She is in absolute despair over the incident and openly admitted to the officer that she will never do this again and has since traveled and paid the full fare.
Should she respond? should she email back pleading the case based on the circumstances around her ex? Should she state she was under duress and felt threatened etc by the officer? just want to know the best response. She has never been fined or warned in the past, this is a first time offence.


To add further complication she is here on a work visa and so is absolutely petrified that what was a silly decision may result in that being cancelled if she was to get prosecuted.

Any help you're able to give would be greatly appreciated.

Others will give advice on what to do and how to respond (but see also other threads for an idea) - however, it is vital in my view that a response is sent ot his communication from the Railway company - as if that does not happen it will almost 100% certain escalate automatically to the prosecution process (your friend is on a 'conveyor belt' to that now) which is best avoided if at all possible to achieve.

Your friend's objective now must be to get off the conveyor belt to prosecution by engaging with the railway and finding the best way to ask them if they would kindly agree not to prosecute.

Prob best for you to now keep a close eye on this forum thread for say the next 24 hours so you can get an idea of the good advice you will receive on how to maximise the chances of getting a good outcome (or perhaps the least worst outcome) for your friend.

From what we see on here there is a good chance that Greater Anglia (GA) may be prepared to settle without prosecuting, if you engage with them about this.

It may also be an idea your friend to buy eg a season ticket appropriate for their journey ASAP - this would allow her to show the Railway in her response that she has taken immediate action to stop doing what she did in future, and this may help count in her favour.

Also - not trying to be cynical, but important to note that this isn't a 'first time offence' as you say - it's just the 1st time she has been caught offending. Your message indicates she has offended 39 times and I suspect would probably have carried on doing so if not caught. I say this because it will help you and your friend approach the problem in the best way if honest with your selves about what has happened and have a think about how it looks from the Railway company's point of view.

But good luck with this and I do think with advice here a good chance exists of getting this sorted without things getting worse.

 

[Ollie7001]

Others will give advice on what to do and how to respond (but see also other threads for an idea) - however, it is vital in my view that a response is sent ot his communication from the Railway company - as if that does not happen it will almost 100% certain escalate automatically to the prosecution process (your friend is on a 'conveyor belt' to that now) which is best avoided if at all possible to achieve.

Your friend's objective now must be to get off the conveyor belt to prosecution by engaging with the railway and finding the best way to ask them if they would kindly agree not to prosecute.

Prob best for you to now keep a close eye on this forum thread for say the next 24 hours so you can get an idea of the good advice you will receive on how to maximise the chances of getting a good outcome (or perhaps the least worst outcome) for your friend.

From what we see on here there is a good chance that Greater Anglia (GA) may be prepared to settle without prosecuting, if you engage with them about this.

It may also be an idea your friend to buy eg a season ticket appropriate for their journey ASAP - this would allow her to show the Railway in her response that she has taken immediate action to stop doing what she did in future, and this may help count in her favour.

Also - not trying to be cynical, but important to note that this isn't a 'first time offence' as you say - it's just the 1st time she has been caught offending. Your message indicates she has offended 39 times and I suspect would probably have carried on doing so if not caught. I say this because it will help you and your friend approach the problem in the best way if honest with your selves about what has happened and have a think about how it looks from the Railway company's point of view.

But good luck with this and I do think with advice here a good chance exists of getting this sorted without things getting worse.

Thanks for your feedback and glad to hear that based on past experience in this forum, it may be a positive outcome. The season ticket option wouldn't be viable mostly as she travels ad-hoc and is not a daily user. Sometimes one day a week, sometimes twice a week etc and so generally is cheaper with single fares. But either way, she certainly has no plans to do it again based on her current anxiety surrounding the situation and remorse.

It would be great to see opinions on here whether or not she should make reference the other evaded fares or simply just respond based on the incident for which she got caught. I will formulate a draft response on here in 24hrs once the level of response from other posters has been gauged.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Your friend needs to know that there is no absolute way to guarantee not being prosecuted: that's a decision for the railway to make. But there are some things they can do which should help.

First of all, they need to know what the railway wants out of this process. And my understanding is that the railway wants to make sure that they get the right train fares out of people - certainly in the future, and for choice for all previous journeys as well. One way of doing this is taking people to court. But another way which is pretty effective is to get people to pay up their train fares, plus an 'admin fee' of maybe a couple of hundred pounds - this is known as an 'out of court settlement'. This usually comes to less than the fine, costs and compensation would come to if the case went to court - but it's still enough to persuade a lot of people not to fare dodge any more.

So as your friend wants to avoid court, they need to do everything they can to persuade the railway to let them make an out of court settlement instead. So

- They need to respond to the letter they've received. If they don't reply, then the railway will see them as non-cooperative and decide that going to court is the only way forward.
- They need to apologise for what they've done
- They need to show that they won't do it again. This partly means saying that they won't do it again. If possible, it's also a good idea to show that they've taken steps to make sure they pay the right fare. This could mean getting a railcard if they're entitled to one and if it would save money on their fare (see railcard.co.uk) or it could mean getting a flexi-season ticket if they make more than 8 journeys in four weeks

And there's a few things not to do
- don't tell a 'sob story'. I know this sounds harsh, but they're not the only person with an abusive ex who has left them short of money
- don't lie. I know this is obvious, but don't say it was the only time that they had dodged the fare - the railway can check what they have bought from the Trainline
- against this, answer the questions that you have been asked and nothing else. From what y9ou have told us, the questions are only about the day when your friend was stopped - so only mention that. If the railway want to know about other occasions, then the railway needs to ask about other occasions.

This won't guarantee that your friend won't get prosecuted. But it may be enough to get Greater Anglia to suggest an amount for an out of court settlement - and if this can be settled out of court, then there's nothing to tell the immigration authorities so your friend won't have to worry about that.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Should she state she was under duress and felt threatened etc by the officer?

Lots of good advice for others, but I don't think anyone has picked up this question.

From the way you've described the conversation your friend had with the officer, I'm not sure there was any duress, and that the interaction was fairly typical of one that the officers will be having with people they identify as travelling without a valid ticket. So unless there is some aspect to this which hasn't been disclosed, I'm unsure as to the point that she would be making, and she certainly shouldn't exaggerate or make up anything, as that might escalate the situation and not in a way that would be necessarily be favourable to her.

 

[Elecman]

Lots of good advice for others, but I don't think anyone has picked up this question.

From the way you've described the conversation your friend had with the officer, I'm not sure there was any duress, and that the interaction was fairly typical of one that the officers will be having with people they identify as travelling without a valid ticket. So unless there is some aspect to this which hasn't been disclosed, I'm unsure as to the point that she would be making, and she certainly shouldn't exaggerate or make up anything, as that might escalate the situation and not in a way that would be necessarily be favourable to her.

I agree with Brissie Girl do not mention this in any response, if your friend really feels that aggreived then they should raise that with the TOC Customer Services department AFTER the conclusion of the ticket irregularity case

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your feedback and glad to hear that based on past experience in this forum, it may be a positive outcome. The season ticket option wouldn't be viable mostly as she travels ad-hoc and is not a daily user. Sometimes one day a week, sometimes twice a week etc and so generally is cheaper with single fares. But either way, she certainly has no plans to do it again based on her current anxiety surrounding the situation and remorse.

It would be great to see opinions on here whether or not she should make reference the other evaded fares or simply just respond based on the incident for which she got caught.

See @Fawkes Cat reply to this point

I will formulate a draft response on here in 24hrs once the level of response from other posters has been gauged.

Yes, that will do your friend a big favour, esp if (perhaps) English is not her 1st language. And feel free to post the draft up here for comment as people will I am sure be happy to check the draft and suggest amends that may be helpful.

You will get good support here from people to help with the situation as is now found.

In terms of your draft - you will need to show:

- you have learned from the actions / error of your ways
- you fully understand the severity of it
- you will take every possible step to ensure it never happens again
- you will need to respectfully ask if they will consider settling the matter without the need for court action

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note:

I have deleted some posts regarding immigration status. This section of the forum exists for disputes about railway ticketing matters - collectively we are experts when it comes to giving advice about this sort of thing.

Regardless of the legal position, we are not experts when it comes to advising on immigration issues, so we should refrain from doing so.

 

[Ollie7001]

See @Fawkes Cat reply to this point



Yes, that will do your friend a big favour, esp if (perhaps) English is not her 1st language. And feel free to post the draft up here for comment as people will I am sure be happy to check the draft and suggest amends that may be helpful.

You will get good support here from people to help with the situation as is now found.

In terms of your draft - you will need to show:

- you have learned from the actions / error of your ways
- you fully understand the severity of it
- you will take every possible step to ensure it never happens again
- you will need to respectfully ask if they will consider settling the matter without the need for court action

Here's my draft response (used templates from other posters).




"Dear Sir/Madam,

I’m responding to a letter you sent on the ***Date*** with the reference: ****

On Tuesday, 29th August 2023, I failed to produce a valid ticket for my train journey from Chelmsford to Stratford station.

I wholeheartedly apologise for not purchasing a ticket. I have in turn learnt a vital lesson, knowing now how ignorant and foolish my actions were. The ordeal was extremely harrowing for me and is not something I ever wish to repeat again which I understand can be avoided by purchasing a valid ticket for my entire journey.

I understand that the act of ticket evasion and its investigation costs the Greater Anglia every year. Since the event, I have made sure to have a valid ticket for every journey I make and can give my assurance that this will never be repeated. I attach evidence to support that I have learned my lesson (appendix01).

If there was an opportunity to settle this without legal proceedings, I would be very grateful. I would like to volunteer to pay the cost of journeys and any additional costs Greater Anglia have incurred investigating this situation.
As an American working here in the UK under a work visa I understand the severity of my actions and what legal proceedings could mean for my visa. Therefore I would be extremely grateful for this to be handled outside of legal proceedings and I promise to always purchase a valid ticket before boarding any trains without fail.

Kindest Regards"


You will see I have made reference to "Journeys" indicating there is more than one occasion. Based on my friend having showed the officer their trainline journey history and the officer recording it, I didn't want to try suggesting to only pay for 1x journey when they know there is multiple occasions.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[WesternLancer]

Here's my draft response (used templates from other posters).




"Dear Sir/Madam,

I’m responding to a letter you sent on the ***Date*** with the reference: ****

On Tuesday, 29th August 2023, I failed to produce a valid ticket for my train journey from Chelmsford to Stratford station.

I wholeheartedly apologise for not purchasing a ticket. I have in turn learnt a vital lesson, knowing now how ignorant and foolish my actions were. The ordeal was extremely harrowing for me and is not something I ever wish to repeat again which I understand can be avoided by purchasing a valid ticket for my entire journey.

I understand that the act of ticket evasion and its investigation costs the Greater Anglia every year. Since the event, I have made sure to have a valid ticket for every journey I make and can give my assurance that this will never be repeated. I attach evidence to support that I have learned my lesson (appendix01).

If there was an opportunity to settle this without legal proceedings, I would be very grateful. I would like to volunteer to pay the cost of journeys and any additional costs Greater Anglia have incurred investigating this situation.
As an American working here in the UK under a work visa I understand the severity of my actions and what legal proceedings could mean for my visa. Therefore I would be extremely grateful for this to be handled outside of legal proceedings and I promise to always purchase a valid ticket before boarding any trains without fail.

Kindest Regards"


You will see I have made reference to "Journeys" indicating there is more than one occasion. Based on my friend having showed the officer their trainline journey history and the officer recording it, I didn't want to try suggesting to only pay for 1x journey when they know there is multiple occasions.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks - all looks pretty good - some minor suggestions as below and hopefully suggested amends are easy for you to see (bit sin bold are bits I have suggested adding, not that you need to make them bold in your reply):

- I note your point about 'journeys' - I can see your logic and that it is driven by a desire to be honest. I've got no view on that plural or not

- ending the letter with your 'ask' (ie settlement without legal proceedings so it is the last thing the reader reads and has in mind when they decide what to do) is a good way to end in my view

- I would be tempted to consider leaving out the bit about being from US and working here. My logic being is that a reader at the railway could read than and think 'oh - they will be desperate to settle as otherwise they risk losing visa and losing job so will pay us more if we ask for it' - I have no idea if that is what would in fact happen but it might be best not to raise it now. If they don't settle at this request it is possible to write again and ask again, so it could be saved for a letter communication if considered to be valuable a point to make in mitigation.

- others may have other suggested amends.

- Don't risk sending this in late but you may want to hold back as long as possible for other feedback.

- keep copies of everything sent by the railway and everything sent in reply

- If you are sending by post in hard copy send it via a method that you have proof of it was delivered on time (other threads say what that is, I think it is called 'signed for' and has to be done at a Post Office IIRC), tho your OP suggests you can e-mail a reply

- Good luck


"Dear Sir/Madam,

I’m responding to a letter you sent on the ***Date*** with the reference: ****

On Tuesday, 29th August 2023, I failed to produce a valid ticket for my train journey from Chelmsford to Stratford station.

I wholeheartedly apologise for not purchasing a ticket. I have in turn learnt a vital lesson, knowing now how ignorant and foolish my actions were. The ordeal was extremely harrowing for me and is not something I ever wish to repeat again which I understand can be avoided by purchasing a valid ticket for my entire journey.

I understand that the act of ticket evasion and its investigation costs the Greater Anglia Railway a significant sum every year. I now realise this cost falls on other passengers and I understand properly that this is not fair on those who pay the correct fare. Since the event, I have made sure to have a valid ticket for every journey I make and can give my assurance that this will never be repeated. I attach evidence to support that I have learned my lesson (appendix01).

If there was an opportunity to settle this without legal proceedings, I would be very grateful. I would like to volunteer to pay the cost of journeys and any additional costs Greater Anglia have incurred investigating this situation.

As an American working here in the UK under a work visa I understand the severity of my actions and what legal proceedings could mean for my visa. Therefore Once again I am extremely sorry for my actions and I now understand that what I did was wrong. I would be extremely grateful for this to be handled outside of legal proceedings and I promise to always purchase a valid ticket before boarding any trains without fail.

Kindest Regards"

 

[Titfield]

Thanks - all looks pretty good - some minor suggestions as below and hopefully suggested amends are easy for you to see (bit sin bold are bits I have suggested adding, not that you need to make them bold in your reply):

- I note your point about 'journeys' - I can see your logic and that it is driven by a desire to be honest. I've got no view on that plural or not

- ending the letter with your 'ask' (ie settlement without legal proceedings so it is the last thing the reader reads and has in mind when they decide what to do) is a good way to end in my view

- I would be tempted to consider leaving out the bit about being from US and working here. My logic being is that a reader at the railway could read than and think 'oh - they will be desperate to settle as otherwise they risk losing visa and losing job so will pay us more if we ask for it' - I have no idea if that is what would in fact happen but it might be best not to raise it now. If they don't settle at this request it is possible to write again and ask again, so it could be saved for a letter communication if considered to be valuable a point to make in mitigation.

- others may have other suggested amends.

- Don't risk sending this in late but you may want to hold back as long as possible for other feedback.

- keep copies of everything sent by the railway and everything sent in reply

- If you are sending by post in hard copy send it via a method that you have proof of it was delivered on time (other threads say what that is, I think it is called 'signed for' and has to be done at a Post Office IIRC), tho your OP suggests you can e-mail a reply

- Good luck


"Dear Sir/Madam,

I’m responding to a letter you sent on the ***Date*** with the reference: ****

On Tuesday, 29th August 2023, I failed to produce a valid ticket for my train journey from Chelmsford to Stratford station.

I wholeheartedly apologise for not purchasing a ticket. I have in turn learnt a vital lesson, knowing now how ignorant and foolish my actions were. The ordeal was extremely harrowing for me and is not something I ever wish to repeat again which I understand can be avoided by purchasing a valid ticket for my entire journey.

I understand that the act of ticket evasion and its investigation costs the Greater Anglia Railway a significant sum every year. I now realise this cost falls on other passengers and I understand properly that this is not fair on those who pay the correct fare. Since the event, I have made sure to have a valid ticket for every journey I make and can give my assurance that this will never be repeated. I attach evidence to support that I have learned my lesson (appendix01).

If there was an opportunity to settle this without legal proceedings, I would be very grateful. I would like to volunteer to pay the cost of journeys and any additional costs Greater Anglia have incurred investigating this situation.

As an American working here in the UK under a work visa I understand the severity of my actions and what legal proceedings could mean for my visa. Therefore Once again I am extremely sorry for my actions and I now understand that what I did was wrong. I would be extremely grateful for this to be handled outside of legal proceedings and I promise to always purchase a valid ticket before boarding any trains without fail.

Kindest Regards"

I would just add that some of the language is a bit wordy. For example say "I would like to pay....." rather than "I would like to volunteer to pay....".

The crisper the sentences, the easier it is to read.

 

[Ollie7001]

Hi guys,

if you could please provide comment on the below re-drafted response I want to try and issue it today to them so it's resolved ASAP.

still would appreciate anyone's guidance on the "Journey's" word as to whether I should acknowledge it was more than once or play ignorant.......




"Dear Sir/Madam,

I’m responding to your letter dated XXXXX with the reference:XXXXX

On Tuesday, 29th August 2023, I failed to produce a valid ticket for my train journey from Chelmsford to Stratford station.

I wholeheartedly apologise for not purchasing the correct ticket. I have in turn learned a vital lesson, knowing now how ignorant and foolish my actions were. The ordeal was extremely harrowing for me and is not something I ever wish to repeat again which I understand can be avoided by purchasing a valid ticket for my entire journey.

I understand that the act of ticket evasion and its investigation costs the Greater Anglia Railway a significant sum every year. I now realise this cost falls on other passengers and I understand properly that this is not fair on those who pay the correct fare. Since the event, I have made sure to have a valid ticket for every journey I make and can give my assurance that this will never be repeated. I attach evidence to support that I have learned my lesson (appendix1).

If there was an opportunity to settle this without legal proceedings, I would be very grateful. I would like to pay the cost of journeys and any additional costs Greater Anglia have incurred investigating this situation.

Once again I am extremely sorry for my actions and I now understand that what I did was wrong. I would be extremely grateful for this to be handled outside of legal proceedings and I promise to always purchase a valid ticket before boarding any trains without fail."

 

[Fawkes Cat]

till would appreciate anyone's guidance on the "Journey's" word as to whether I should acknowledge it was more than once or play ignorant.......

The general view of people who contribute to this list is that you're entitled to take a legalistic approach to this: you should not lie, but at the same time you are under no obligation to incriminate yourself by volunteering information that has not been asked for.

As far as I can make out, Greater Anglia have only asked about this one journey. So only respond about the one journey. Say 'journey' rather than 'journeys'.

 

[WesternLancer]

The general view of people who contribute to this list is that you're entitled to take a legalistic approach to this: you should not lie, but at the same time you are under no obligation to incriminate yourself by volunteering information that has not been asked for.

As far as I can make out, Greater Anglia have only asked about this one journey. So only respond about the one journey. Say 'journey' rather than 'journeys'.

I think it is best to go with this approach too having considered @Fawkes Cat point.

If they then want to raise the issue of other journeys they will do so - ot if they do offer to settle will ask for a sum that reflects their suspicions of other journeys. So when you get their reply you may well want to come back here for any advice on what they have said in reply or any next steps.

 

[Ollie7001]

Thanks All,

She has sent the response. I will update on progress and hopeful outcome.

 

[reb0118]

A minor point but finish the letter "yours sincerely" if you are replying to a named person or "yours faithfully" to an unnamed person.

Remember this is a formal business letter.

 

[Ollie7001]

Hi All,

So just to update....

Received response from the GA today stating that they usually prosecute however are willing to settle on the matter which is GREAT news so thanks to everyone for your help.

The only question though is that they have requested a settlement of £893.40 + £100 admin costs.
I can't quite make out how these costs have been calculated and so wanted advice on whether you believe this is a made up figure or if it seems correct?
Either way is it worth challenging the costs or asking for a breakdown? Or do you think she should take it as a victory and accept that she got off lightly...?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi All,

So just to update....

Received response from the GA today stating that they usually prosecute however are willing to settle on the matter which is GREAT news so thanks to everyone for your help.

The only question though is that they have requested a settlement of £893.40 + £100 admin costs.
I can't quite make out how these costs have been calculated and so wanted advice on whether you believe this is a made up figure or if it seems correct?
Either way is it worth challenging the costs or asking for a breakdown? Or do you think she should take it as a victory and accept that she got off lightly...?

Some things about the admin costs:
- obviously it's a round sum. The chances of the costs being exactly £100 rather than £99.98 or £100.02 are pretty slim.
- nonetheless, it's probably about right. Think what you are (or would like to be) paid per hour. Once you add on on-costs (your employer providing you with somewhere to work and so on) you'll see that it wouldn't take very many hours to clock up £100 in costs
- also think about the cost of working out a precise cost. It's not cheap to know to the minute how long has been spent on a case - so the chance is that the railway has not even tried. Cases like this face costs of £100 and that's the end of the story
- but also, yes, I think costs are used to discourage people from making the same mistake again. That won't show up much here, where there's about £900 of fares to pay as well, but if the fare had been 'only' £50 then £100 costs on top would have a pretty big deterrent effect.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi All,

So just to update....

Received response from the GA today stating that they usually prosecute however are willing to settle on the matter which is GREAT news so thanks to everyone for your help.

The only question though is that they have requested a settlement of £893.40 + £100 admin costs.
I can't quite make out how these costs have been calculated and so wanted advice on whether you believe this is a made up figure or if it seems correct?
Either way is it worth challenging the costs or asking for a breakdown? Or do you think she should take it as a victory and accept that she got off lightly...?

Hi - see post #2

The Anytime Day Single from Chelmsford to Stratford is £16.50. Multiply that by 39 and you get £643.50.

So if the 39 trips are all it is then you are £250 adrift in their favour. + the admin fee which at £100 is reasonable (some train firms ask for more in admin)

Now sorting it out at court will cost more than £250 extra in court costs/fine etc (as your friend will be found guilty) + criminal record albeit not the most serious of records to have, so that is not a great option, and IIRC there is a work visa angle your friend wants to avoid. That may be worth £250 too to avoid.

So the explanation could possibly be that they think from Trainline or other on line purchase records they have found (perhaps?) that your friend has done other evasion and are factoring that in maybe - even if they are wrong about it.

We do hear of cases on here where people have asked for breakdowns and /or got modest reductions in fines, but the multiple actions of evasion here (your friend did this deliberately on numerous occasions) do not put her in a strong position to ask for a reduction I would suggest.

This is what you and she need to weigh up ref the the sum asked for. £643.50 would seem to be definitely owed, and without them adding on a bit more after all, what incentive is there not to do it again apart from the risk of court.

See what others say but my hunch would be to pay this and end the matter and chalk up the 'extra lost' £250 to 'things could have been a lot worse'.

Some things about the admin costs:
- obviously it's a round sum. The chances of the costs being exactly £100 rather than £99.98 or £100.02 are pretty slim.
- nonetheless, it's probably about right. Think what you are (or would like to be) paid per hour. Once you add on on-costs (your employer providing you with somewhere to work and so on) you'll see that it wouldn't take very many hours to clock up £100 in costs
- also think about the cost of working out a precise cost. It's not cheap to know to the minute how long has been spent on a case - so the chance is that the railway has not even tried. Cases like this face costs of £100 and that's the end of the story
- but also, yes, I think costs are used to discourage people from making the same mistake again. That won't show up much here, where there's about £900 of fares to pay as well, but if the fare had been 'only' £50 then £100 costs on top would have a pretty big deterrent effect.

Hi - not sure the OP is asking about the £100 costs per se, but I assumed the 'cost' of the total being asked for - hence my reply - but I may have this wrong! Between us we've probably covered it from both angles which may be some help

 

[Hadders]

This is a reasonable offer in the circumstances. Give that the fare had been evaded 39 times I would pay up pronto. If Greater Anglia decided to prosecute you the fine, surcharge, court costs and compensation would be higherthan this.

 

[island]

This is a reasonable offer in the circumstances. Give that the fare had been evaded 39 times I would pay up pronto. If Greater Anglia decided to prosecute you the fine, surcharge, court costs and compensation would be higherthan this.

I agree with this.

Settlement figures are rarely negotiable and the risk of attempting to negotiate them is that the offer may be withdrawn without notice.

 

[Danberto]

Any decision with regard to the next step should be made by the person facing the fare evasion charge. The £100 admin cost is in-line with what we see in other instances where an out of court settlement is offered.

In trying to foresee consequences resulting from choices, I would identify the following:
- Pay the out of court settlement. There will be no further action, this episode will not progress to a court case.
- Challenge the admin. cost. This could go one of the following ways:
- Greater Anglia (GA) reduce the £100 admin cost.
- GA decline to reduce the cost, effectively state 'take it or leave it'.
- GA decline to reduce the cost, they withdraw their offer; the matter proceeds to a court case.

Should the case go to court, the person alleged to be fare evading will upon pleading guilty or be found guilty face:
- A fine imposed by the Magistrate, this will be linked to the income of the person.
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine.
- Value of the fares evaded, payable to GA.
- Costs of GA in bringing the case to court.
- A criminal record. This may cause problems with any visa.

Overall, should this go to court financially things will be much 'worse' than if the out of court settlement is accepted.

 

[Haywain]

Should the case go to court, the person alleged to be fare evading will upon pleading guilty or be found guilty face:
- A fine imposed by the Magistrate, this will be linked to the income of the person.
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine.
- Value of the fares evaded, payable to GA.
- Costs of GA in bringing the case to court.
- A criminal record. This may cause problems with any visa.

Overall, should this go to court financially things will be much 'worse' than if the out of court settlement is accepted.

Should it go to court, there would be an opportunity to challenge whatever is claimed by GA as the value of fares evaded if they do claim for multiple journeys. However, to do this successfully is likely to involve using the services of a solicitor and that will come at a cost which is likely to be significant and could exceed the value of any fares that do not then have to be repaid. Whilst reducing that amount would be a victory, it would be a hollow victory if it costs more than the amount saved.

 

[Ollie7001]

Hi All,

Thanks for your input and am in agreeance that she should accept the extra cost as a punishment and lesson learned.

Thanks again