Greater Anglia - review of past travel

[sphx1]

Hi. I previously paid for shorter fairs over a few months than what I actually used it for. But once I was able to get a travel loan at work, I bought a legit annual train ticket. When I was travelling in this morning I thought I’d forgotten my travel card so I spoke to the man at the station. Even though I had a legit annual ticket which I’d been using for a couple of months now, he wanted to look at my expired tickets and I think he was wondering why they were for different stations/shorter trips. I realised I actually had my card in my pocket so he scanned it and verified it and let me through. But after I went through I just had a funny feeling about it and I thought he was showing my ticket history to a colleague on the device but I’m not sure. Maybe I’m over thinking it but I was wondering if there’s any chance this will turn into a problem or if they’re likely to go back and review old cctv etc. considering I’ve spend a lot of money on a legit annual ticket on my own accord I’m hoping not, but I didn’t know what their practices are, or how long they keep their cctv for? Thanks

 

[VauxhallandI]

I’m not sure how you think buying a ticket for your travel like everyone else somehow mitigates the fare evasion you’ve committed in the past. A rather strange moral compass that you would have to adjust if they did contact you which I think is very unlikely as they would have taken your details on the day I imagine.

 

[sphx1]

I’m not sure how you think buying a ticket for your travel like everyone else somehow mitigates the fare evasion you’ve committed in the past. A rather strange moral compass that you would have to adjust if they did contact you which I think is very unlikely as they would have taken your details on the day I imagine.

I hear you, but that’s not exactly what I meant, I wasn’t saying it’s OK. But I mean it shows no intent to continue, and that I rectified it on my own accord without being asked to. I did write down my details for him, but it was originally for the purpose of him looking up my details supposedly, I don’t know how true that is though.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Fair enough I get your angle

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi. I previously paid for shorter fairs over a few months than what I actually used it for. But once I was able to get a travel loan at work, I bought a legit annual train ticket. When I was travelling in this morning I thought I’d forgotten my travel card so I spoke to the man at the station. Even though I had a legit annual ticket which I’d been using for a couple of months now, he wanted to look at my expired tickets and I think he was wondering why they were for different stations/shorter trips. I realised I actually had my card in my pocket so he scanned it and verified it and let me through. But after I went through I just had a funny feeling about it and I thought he was showing my ticket history to a colleague on the device but I’m not sure. Maybe I’m over thinking it but I was wondering if there’s any chance this will turn into a problem or if they’re likely to go back and review old cctv etc. considering I’ve spend a lot of money on a legit annual ticket on my own accord I’m hoping not, but I didn’t know what their practices are, or how long they keep their cctv for? Thanks

As far as I can remember, we have not seen any cases which exactly match this. But you do need to know that the railway companies are beginning to go through historic data to identify patterns that might show fare evasion.

So my best guess is that nothing will come from this particular incident. But it can't be ruled out that at some point you will get a letter or email from Greater Anglia suggesting that the explanation for the difference between your old fares and your current fares is that you were fare dodging - and (effectively) asking for their money back, plus the cost of their investigation, lest they take you to court.

There's obviously nothing you can do now about how you used to buy tickets - none of us can change the past. But you can now build a up a record which proves that you now always buy the right ticket. So you need to make sure that you don't try anything that you would not be able to defend in court. And if sometimes your 'short journeys' were in fact legitimate, make a note of them now so that you can explain those if the railway comes and asks you about them.

Otherwise, for the moment you don't need to worry!

 

[sphx1]

As far as I can remember, we have not seen any cases which exactly match this. But you do need to know that the railway companies are beginning to go through historic data to identify patterns that might show fare evasion.

So my best guess is that nothing will come from this particular incident. But it can't be ruled out that at some point you will get a letter or email from Greater Anglia suggesting that the explanation for the difference between your old fares and your current fares is that you were fare dodging - and (effectively) asking for their money back, plus the cost of their investigation, lest they take you to court.

There's obviously nothing you can do now about how you used to buy tickets - none of us can change the past. But you can now build a up a record which proves that you now always buy the right ticket. So you need to make sure that you don't try anything that you would not be able to defend in court. And if sometimes your 'short journeys' were in fact legitimate, make a note of them now so that you can explain those if the railway comes and asks you about them.

Otherwise, for the moment you don't need to worry!

Thanks, I’ll bare it in mind. Are they likely to still have cctv footage after a couple of months?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Are they likely to still have cctv footage after a couple of months?

Unless they had particular reason to keep it, it's likely to have been disposed of.

But if you're hoping that they will not be able to show that you bought those tickets, bear in mind that unless you're very much in the minority then you'll have bought using a credit/debit card - and if they know which card was used then there's a fair assumption that it's the person the card was issued to who bought the tickets.

When it comes to using the tickets, the lack of CCTV will be rather more on your side (no one will be able to see that you got on/off a train with the short ticket)- but again, you need to remember that even the criminal standard of proof is not absolute proof that something happened, but proof beyond reasonable doubt that something happened. Opinions here vary as to what evidence would be needed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone used a ticket, but it seems to me that knowing that someone bought the tickets would go a long way to proving that they used them.

 

[AlterEgo]

When it comes to using the tickets, the lack of CCTV will be rather more on your side (no one will be able to see that you got on/off a train with the short ticket)- but again, you need to remember that even the criminal standard of proof is not absolute proof that something happened, but proof beyond reasonable doubt that something happened. Opinions here vary as to what evidence would be needed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone used a ticket, but it seems to me that knowing that someone bought the tickets would go a long way to proving that they used them.

Absent stopping someone or getting conclusive CCTV, there is no realistic way to retrospectively enforce Bylaws or RoRA ticketing offences. If the OP bought the tickets for shorter journeys, who is to say they didn't use the tickets for the shorter journeys? Criminal proof is beyond reasonable doubt, not "well I reckon". Not a single prosecution reported here for this sort of retrospective offence, and if confronted, the OP should offer no comment whatsoever. Do not give them any evidence; it's likely they don't have anything of use anyway. For a RoRA 5 3(b)offence for example, the company would need to prove, beyond reasonable doubt:

- That the OP travelled
- That they travelled beyond the distance allowed by their ticket
- Their intention to avoid payment of the correct fare

They would struggle to even prove the OP travelled at all. This is not balance of probabilities stuff, this requires proof on all three aspects beyond reasonable doubt. That is why physically stopping the passenger in the middle of committing the offence, and obtaining their details, is of critical importance to train companies. It is also why when companies do ticket audits on historic purchases it'll set off the "well I reckon" red flags and they start writing threatening fraud and all the rest of it and inviting people in for voluntary interviews.

We are not here to do the train companies' work for them.

 

[Hadders]

What happened when you told the inspector you'd forgotten your season ticket? There's a procedure for this situation, normally your details are taken and you send ina copy of your ticket and that's the end of the matter. Did this happen? Or were you sold a ticket?

If Greater Anglia took your details, or scanned a ticket purchased online then they will be able to get access to your details. They can 'join the dots' and identify that you've potentially been purchasing short tickets. They might write to you asking some questions.

From a legal point of view, purchasing tickets is not illegal but travelling without a valid ticket is. It's not clear that the train company would have evidence of a sufficient standard to convince a court that you travelled without a valid ticket. It's possible that they might have, but they might not. The train company would probably agree to an out of court settlement which if paid would mean they discontinue the investigation.

Do let us know if you receive a letter and forum members can assist with next steps.

 

[gingerheid]

May be overthinking, but to me the pattern would most logically be that the travel pattern and the ticket type changed at the same time, which doesn't seem inherently suspicious.

 

[reb0118]

What happened when you told the inspector you'd forgotten your season ticket? There's a procedure for this situation, normally your details are taken and you send ina copy of your ticket and that's the end of the matter. Did this happen? Or were you sold a ticket?

I suspect what may have been happening here is that the staff member was checking for previous sales history to see if the passenger had a "good record" of purchasing tickets prior to deciding whether to show discretion or not by letting the passenger through the barrier after his reporting his forgetting his season ticket.

 

[johnny_t]

May be overthinking, but to me the pattern would most logically be that the travel pattern and the ticket type changed at the same time, which doesn't seem inherently suspicious.

That was my thought too. OP could have moved, stopped getting a lift part of the way, or various other things, for all the ticket inspector knows...

 

[sphx1]

That was my thought too. OP could have moved, stopped getting a lift part of the way, or various other things, for all the ticket inspector knows...

That’s what I was thinking. I did buy some legit tickets as well, from my current address, also some shorter ones from two other stations. But yes who’s to say I can’t get on further down the line or stay at someone else’s house during the week etc. That’s why I was just wondering if they’d go back over old cctv, if it’s still in existence. But was hoping the fact that I’ve gone legit now and bought their annual ticket a couple of months ago they’ll be satisfied with me and leave me be.